Mole_Toonfan Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 He's excellent but he is playing for a club in a league where there are only two really great teams but on the international level he isn't the worlds greatest player by any means, the only way we could really judge him is if he was to play in a tougher league but he won't ever leave Barca so I'll guess we'll never know. Which two really great teams would this be? Atletico and Barca? International level? he scored 12 goals in 10 games in last year for Argentina to say he doesn't perform for them is a myth long dispelled. La Liga players come to PL and set it alight.... Michu has come and is one of the top goalscorers if Messi came he would probably score 3 goals a game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Other than the skill, the fact he's the greatest ever, and so on, one of my favourite things about Messi is how he tackles a tackle. There are too many bitches in football these days that go down like a sack of potatoes the minute they even feel even the slightest of touches. Check out this video of the tackles Messi takes Football clip Some of the tackles Messi takes are shocking to say the least, its not highlighted as much because Messi doesn't react and gets up and on with things, he is kicked and battered almost every game and I watch all them when I can every weekend. He doesn't though. He isn't tackled that much as back in the days. However, Messi is on a completely different level to his competitors today and deserves the prize for the 4th time in a row. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 He's excellent but he is playing for a club in a league where there are only two really great teams but on the international level he isn't the worlds greatest player by any means, the only way we could really judge him is if he was to play in a tougher league but he won't ever leave Barca so I'll guess we'll never know. Yes, winning the champions league twice in 3 years, completely taking apart the best team in England in both finals counts for nothing. Scoring 4 in a match against Arsenal, dominating Real Madrid on numerous occasions. 91 goals in a calender year. Second highest scorer in CL history by the age of 25. Barcelona's all time top scorer. How many really great teams are there in England? Man Utd, who got dumped out of the group stages of the CL last season and ended up getting embarrassed over 2 legs by a team that finished 10th in Spain in the Europa League. Man City, who finished bottom of their CL group this season without 1 win. Chelsea, who another Spanish team that aren't Real Madrid or Barcelona (And have won the Europa league twice in 3 years) absolutely battered 4-1 in the Super Cup and who couldn't get out of their CL group this season either. pls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 He's excellent but he is playing for a club in a league where there are only two really great teams but on the international level he isn't the worlds greatest player by any means, the only way we could really judge him is if he was to play in a tougher league but he won't ever leave Barca so I'll guess we'll never know. Yes, winning the champions league twice in 3 years, completely taking apart the best team in England in both finals counts for nothing. Scoring 4 in a match against Arsenal, dominating Real Madrid on numerous occasions. 91 goals in a calender year. Second highest scorer in CL history by the age of 25. Barcelona's all time top scorer. How many really great teams are there in England? Man Utd, who got dumped out of the group stages of the CL last season and ended up getting embarrassed over 2 legs by a team that finished 10th in Spain in the Europa League. Man City, who finished bottom of their CL group this season without 1 win. Chelsea, who another Spanish team that aren't Real Madrid or Barcelona (And have won the Europa league twice in 3 years) absolutely battered 4-1 in the Super Cup and who couldn't get out of their CL group this season either. pls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TCD23 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 How about the German league? Much tougher defenses for starters and besides he's never achieved anything at an international level, and never won a major trophy at international level, not even the Copa America so yeah not exactly proven on the international stage and as said he hasn't played outside of Spain. Besides he is the greatest of this generation I agree wholeheartedly but all I stated was that he hasn't proven himself in a different league or on the international level thus it's hard to judge him on such a scale as the greats (by which I mean he is up there but we can't really say how he would cope in Germany for example). Jesus you'd think I'd stated that he was worse than Shola. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 How about the German league? Much tougher defenses for starters and besides he's never achieved anything at an international level, and never won a major trophy at international level, not even the Copa America so yeah not exactly proven on the international stage and as said he hasn't played outside of Spain. Besides he is the greatest of this generation I agree wholeheartedly but all I stated was that he hasn't proven himself in a different league or on the international level thus it's hard to judge him on such a scale as the greats (by which I mean he is up there but we can't really say how he would cope in Germany for example). Jesus you'd think I'd stated that he was worse than Shola. Tougher defences in Bundesliga? Don't agree. Lest not forget he hit 6 goals in 2 games against Leverkusen last year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Bundesliga defences are pretty lifting on the whole. Even the best 2 (in theory) Dortmund and Bayern leak a lot of goals in Europe and Germany NT leaks goals a lot too. Bundesliga teams go for the outscoring method rather than tight defending IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roy the Irish Magpie Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Anyone who doesn't agree he's the greatest ever needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Shut the fuck up with this 'tougher league' non sense. The greatest stage is the champions league and we all know he has left that with a bruised anus time and time again. International performance do mean go on about the fact he's never won a world cup or anything. You cannot argue against his permanences goal wise. See this is another thing I don't get, what is it about winning a World Cup that would change his ability? Winning a World Cup is a team effort not an individual competition, the likes of a George Best never even played in a major international competition let alone win a world cup and this never changed his ability or how people thought of him. Deciding who the best player in the world or of all time is based on ability though? that is all I'm saying to people who mention he needs a world cup first?? Another fact for ye, Messi was actually offered Spanish nationality before he was capped for Argentina so he could have well taken the easy root to so called competitions apparently people need to win to prove themselves??? A mate of mine (also clueless when it come to footy) argued that truly exceptional players have dragged their mediocre team mates to world cups and used Maradona, Pele Zidane as examples. Maradonna, Pele and Zidane all played in world class national sides to say they were mediocre I 100% do not agree with. I see the whole Messi needs to win a World Cup before he is recognized as a great as just a daft comment to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 How about the German league? Much tougher defenses for starters and besides he's never achieved anything at an international level, and never won a major trophy at international level, not even the Copa America so yeah not exactly proven on the international stage and as said he hasn't played outside of Spain. Besides he is the greatest of this generation I agree wholeheartedly but all I stated was that he hasn't proven himself in a different league or on the international level thus it's hard to judge him on such a scale as the greats (by which I mean he is up there but we can't really say how he would cope in Germany for example). Jesus you'd think I'd stated that he was worse than Shola. So who is the greatest? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Wait Pele had mediocre team mates? Pls he had some of the best players of all time alongside him in every one of his WC victories. Zidane didn't carry shit, in 98 he was suspended for half the tournament.... Zidane's real shining light was Euro 2000 were he was f*cking outstanding but even so he didn't carry anything. Maradona is the closest thing to carrying but even so he still had good-great players around him, the whole carrying thing is a myth you can't win things on your own you just can't. Not going to go whose the best because its been tirelessly discussed for too long but i do enjoy laughing at some of these myths. Also about Maradona before that WC in 86 a lot of people say that Zico and Platini were better so he wasn't dominant like Messi or Pele was tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Obviously the Getafe goal and Espanyol hand of god weren't enough. http://s2.glbimg.com/QlkGXDjXF8ptRTjXv51Ap4FP5OIjpxQo1gGx2blsLL9M3Gl9CW9aTvl0EA1iiqra/s.glbimg.com/es/ge/f/original/2013/01/07/messi-iniesta-cristianoronaldo-afp5.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormy Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Maradona's looks like a onesie. The shirt and tie, too. Legend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Thing is if he never scored but just passed it he'd still make every team in the world. Astonishing player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TCD23 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 The greatest stage is blatantly the World Cup, you know the world's biggest single sporting even and Messi hasn't performed at any of them. It's also ludicrous to say anybody is the greatest ever at anything especially in football, what is Messi the best Goalkeeper as well? Or aren't goalkeepers footballers either? Football has changed so much even in the past ten years that you can't really rate him against the likes of Pele. Greatest of his generation sure, but greatest ever? Well it's impossible for anybody to be the greatest but he still hasn't won a World Cup or international tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I agree it's impossible to compare between eras and a little pointless. I don't agree he hasn't performed at world cup either, granted didn't look quite his usual self but seemed to be playing deeper and being more a playmaker than what he is at Barca. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 When you dominate the club scene for as long as he has the WC means very little tbh. Most of the players you could mention needed the WC on their resume because their club form wasn't that good. Messi has dominated the club scene for half a decade and has no sign of slowing up, very few in history have done that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TCD23 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 When you dominate the club scene for as long as he has the WC means very little tbh. Most of the players you could mention needed the WC on their resume because their club form wasn't that good. Messi has dominated the club scene for half a decade and has no sign of slowing up, very few in history have done that. Such as.....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Most of the players you could mention needed the WC on their resume because their club form wasn't that good. ?? What are you on about? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Most of the players you could mention needed the WC on their resume because their club form wasn't that good. ?? What are you on about? Zidane, Maradona etc etc didn't dominate the club scene the way Messi has, when i said not very good i meant in comparison. Of course their performances at international level helped springboard them well above what their club performances had put them at but Messi doesn't need it in the same fashion because he has dominated since he was a kid. Pele is really the only one who is dominated in a similar fashion, i suppose you could make arguments for Cruyff and Di Stefano too but i don't believe Messi needs a WC because of such domination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VanBarduck Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 the answer is in the title ... God I hate that midget , since Abidal said that "ben arfa was as the same level as messi when they were both 18 years old" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Can I post this since it's animation not actual football clips. Plus it's Adidas official account... 2012 FIFA World Player of the Year: adidas celebrates Leo Messi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think the WC win in 86 was in some part a testament to Maradona's freakish dominance... Argentina weren't a bad side but they weren't great either and it was Maradona who made the difference time and time again. Similarly, Baggio managing to pop up every time his knackered, uninspired Italy teammates needed him in 94 could've been interpreted as in some way an individual victory. Those two are as close to 'carrying' a team to victory as you'll get. In Maradona's case you have to look at his achievement at Napoli too. He clearly was a player who could lift a team by sheer individual dominance, and not just over the course of a summer tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Also worth pointing out that for Messi to have inspired Argentina to the World Cup, with Maradona as his manager and Jonas at right back, in that totally unbalanced side, would've been an achievement to tower above just about anything ever achieved at a World Cup. I don't think he's had a particularly fair crack at it yet but there's a World Cup coming up in Brazil that might just have his name on it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 only problem i see with that is he's been play what 60+ games every season now for 4-5 seasons...he's gonna break down eventually like, hopefully it's not then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think the WC win in 86 was in some part a testament to Maradona's freakish dominance... Argentina weren't a bad side but they weren't great either and it was Maradona who made the difference time and time again. Similarly, Baggio managing to pop up every time his knackered, uninspired Italy teammates needed him in 94 could've been interpreted as in some way an individual victory. Those two are as close to 'carrying' a team to victory as you'll get. In Maradona's case you have to look at his achievement at Napoli too. He clearly was a player who could lift a team by sheer individual dominance, and not just over the course of a summer tournament. http://www.jogodearea.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/garrincha-brasil.jpg The little bird disagrees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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