Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Collage]

I agree (and to clarify - this is from what I have read than what I saw), but it appears to have almost become one of those football myths that the Argentinian team of '86 and '90 was useless, when they really weren't.

The 90 side wasn't good mate. They got to the final on the back of their reserve keeper Goicachea coming in after injury to the first choice, Pumpido if I recall, and him being a bit of a penalty saving specialist.

 

Goycochea 

And yes you're right, that wasn't a good team. Full of twats and cheats.

[The College Dropout]

If Luis Suarez can fire L'pool to the brink. Maradona could win it today.

[Collage]

Baggio in '94 remains the best tournament that I've seen from a player. I was only 10 like, but I remember just being totally flawed by him. Absolutely ridiculous that he missed that penalty in those circumstances.

 

He was shite in the group stage, great in the knockout stages, but as a whole you can't say it was the best tournament ever from a player.

[Hughesy]

I agree (and to clarify - this is from what I have read than what I saw), but it appears to have almost become one of those football myths that the Argentinian team of '86 and '90 was useless, when they really weren't.

The 90 side wasn't good mate. They got to the final on the back of their reserve keeper Goicachea coming in after injury to the first choice, Pumpido if I recall, and him being a bit of a penalty saving specialist.

 

Fair enough - I was only seven at the time, so my footballing knowledge wasn't great.  This was more based on what I had read.

 

Feel free to make sweeping comments on zero knowledge tho. Napoli did have 2/3 good players in the Maradona side but had never won the league and never have since. They were up against the powerhouses of Inter, Roma and AC Milan.

 

He lifted the whole city not just the club. They won the league twice while he was there. Messi will never be able to do that at a midtable Spanish or Italian club...Ever.

 

I never made a comment about the Napoli team that Maradona played for.  As pointed out, I am basing my discussion on what I have read about the '86 and '90 Argentinean teams that Maradona played for (I think that having looked again, what I actually read about the '86 team being pretty good rather than the '90 team - think the most recent interview was one done recently with Linekar).

 

I would, however, question exactly how much football the older posters on this forum actually saw many of these greats play.  Probably not even 2-3% of the amount of football that one can now see Messi, Ronaldo etc play?  I sometimes wonder if familiarity breeds contempt with today's stars and that there is an element of mysticism that stills surrounds the legends of the 60s, 70s and 80s.

[Collage]

Maradona was a far more inspirational player than Messi, hard to argue against that.

[Mole_Toonfan]

If Luis Suarez can fire L'pool to the brink. Maradona could win it today.

 

Unfair on Suarez team mates tbf, before they bought Sturridge and Coutinho etc etc. Suarez at Liverpool was struggling to crack the top 6.

 

As it always had been, its about what sort of help you can get you're star man.

[The College Dropout]

 

If Luis Suarez can fire L'pool to the brink. Maradona could win it today.

 

Unfair on Suarez team mates tbf, before they bought Sturridge and Coutinho etc etc. Suarez at Liverpool was struggling to crack the top 6.

 

As it always had been, its about what sort of help you can get you're star man.

 

Not unfair at all. Suarez was the difference between battling for 4th and battling for the league.

 

Put Suarez in our side and we qualify for the CL or get damn near close.

[Parky]

Maradona was a far more inspirational player than Messi, hard to argue against that.

 

The protection modern players have from refs is also a factor. Anyone can look up the carnage and brutality launched at Maradona back in the day.

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/patrick-barclay-why-i-will-never-consider-lionel-messi-greater-than-diego-maradona-8834548.html

[Mole_Toonfan]

We wouldn't

 

As i said before Liverpool got him better help they finished 7th the previous two seasons, its incredibly unfair to say it was all Suarez.

[Collage]

Maradona was a far more inspirational player than Messi, hard to argue against that.

 

The protection modern players have from refs is also a factor. Anyone can look up the carnage and brutality launched at Maradona back in the day.

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/patrick-barclay-why-i-will-never-consider-lionel-messi-greater-than-diego-maradona-8834548.html

 

I'm not saying Maradona was better than Messi, I'm just saying he had that aura that rubbed off on other players. Messi doesn't really have that, probably due to being a much more introvert person.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Baggio in '94 remains the best tournament that I've seen from a player. I was only 10 like, but I remember just being totally flawed by him. Absolutely ridiculous that he missed that penalty in those circumstances.

 

He was s**** in the group stage, great in the knockout stages, but as a whole you can't say it was the best tournament ever from a player.

 

I didn't I said it was the best I've seen. World Cup '94 is the first tournament that I can remember.

[Ketsbaia]

Messi is still the best ever. All that talent, all those Champions League medals, the sheer amount of goals etc.

 

The best ever and, if Higuain and Palacio had bothered to not fuck up, he'd be a world champion too.

[Neil]

Messi is still the best ever. All that talent, all those Champions League medals, the sheer amount of goals etc.

 

The best ever and, if Higuain and Palacio had bothered to not fuck up, he'd be a world champion too.

 

Or, if Messi had decided to look more bothered or put away his chance which, while not a sitter, is the sort of chance he's regularly put away year after year, he'd be a world champion?

 

Devil's advocate, I know, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the "clearly the best ever" school of thought. There's an argument for it but I don't think it can be said with such a degree of certainty. And as I say, I'm as big a fan of him as anyone else.

 

I hope there's more to come from him, new heights, I really do, but for the first time I wonder if a) his body is feeling the effects of so much football in the past 7-8 years or b) we've already seen the best of him?

[Lotus]

Didn't look like he wanted to win the WC to me. Just ambled about the pitch. Never closed anyone down. Rarely showed for the ball. Just didn't contribute.

 

Contrast that to the effort Mascherano put in.

[Lotus]

Didn't look like he wanted to win the WC to me. Just ambled about the pitch. Never closed anyone down. Rarely showed for the ball. Just didn't contribute.

 

Contrast that to the effort Mascherano put in.

 

Why? they play completely different roles. Mashcherano's effectiveness depends on him grafting and flying around the pitch. Effort = effectiveness. They wouldn't even have been there had it not been for Messi.

 

He never bothered his arse. If he had, he might have made a difference. Once in a life time opportunity and he was less active than Shola.

[Lotus]

Also, being a forward never stopped very talented players like Rooney actually putting the effort in.

[Neil]

I don't think the fact he ambled about was indicative of a lack of hunger. He regularly ambles about, it's part of his style and presumably is a deliberate tactic to conserve energy.

 

What I found more concerning was for one of the first times ever, he didn't have that air of invincibility about him. He was still able to beat players - of course he was, he's fucking class - but there was something about him which made you think he wasn't going to win the game for Argentina, or he wasn't going to put away that chance.

 

Harsh criticism you may think but the context with which we're talking about him is about whether he's the greatest ever. He was a disappointment at this tournament IMO. Mitigating factors, yes, but he didn't excel at all.

[Ketsbaia]

Messi is still the best ever. All that talent, all those Champions League medals, the sheer amount of goals etc.

 

The best ever and, if Higuain and Palacio had bothered to not fuck up, he'd be a world champion too.

 

Or, if Messi had decided to look more bothered or put away his chance which, while not a sitter, is the sort of chance he's regularly put away year after year, he'd be a world champion?

 

Devil's advocate, I know, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the "clearly the best ever" school of thought. There's an argument for it but I don't think it can be said with such a degree of certainty. And as I say, I'm as big a fan of him as anyone else.

 

I hope there's more to come from him, new heights, I really do, but for the first time I wonder if a) his body is feeling the effects of so much football in the past 7-8 years or b) we've already seen the best of him?

 

Of the three chances, his was hardest imo. In that position, it needs a right-footed shot.

 

As for his future, Barcelona seem to be going through a transitional summer by losing Xavi, Valdes, Puyol etc. He'll have great strikers with him but will it help or hinder him that he's not the sole focus anymore?

[Lotus]

CRonaldo ambles about while his team mates scramble and try to get the ball back and everyone calls him a lazy, self absorbed prima donna.

 

Messi does it. Conserving energy. For what? He did f**k all!

 

I love the bloke, awesome player. Never tried yesterday. Didn't even try. Imagine that.....WC final and didn't even try. Sad stuff imo.

[Lotus]

Also, being a forward never stopped very talented players like Rooney actually putting the effort in.

 

And he's produced f*** all at the WC

 

Guess they've got that in common then.

 

Imagine Rooney's mindset if he reached a WC final. Even if he wasn't having the best of days with the ball, at least he'd try and help out his team mates. At least he'd try and make a contribution.

 

Klose is what? 10 years older than Messi? Played like he wanted it though. Didn't get a chance to score but still made himself useful. Offered something.

[Tooj]

Also, being a forward never stopped very talented players like Rooney actually putting the effort in.

 

And he's produced f*** all at the WC

 

Guess they've got that in common then.

 

 

Abysmal.

[Guest firetotheworks]

For me the whole effort things is more down to his demeanor than his play. He does walk around a bit a look a little disinterested at times, but he's been doing that for a while now, once he gets the balls he's just as explosive and amazing to watch. I also prefer watching him on the right than anywhere else, but it's crazy to think that he could have won the World Cup having played in that sort of reserved way.

 

I dunno, he's still the best I've seen and that's all that anyone can ever really say anyway imo.

[Pata]

CRonaldo ambles about while his team mates scramble and try to get the ball back and everyone calls him a lazy, self absorbed prima donna.

 

Messi does it. Conserving energy. For what? He did f**k all!

 

I love the bloke, awesome player. Never tried yesterday. Didn't even try. Imagine that.....WC final and didn't even try. Sad stuff imo.

 

 

There are 10 other players whose only job is to run without the ball and then give it to Messi when they eventually get it.

[ads]

For me the whole effort things is more down to his demeanor than his play. He does walk around a bit a look a little disinterested at times, but he's been doing that for a while now, once he gets the balls he's just as explosive and amazing to watch. I also prefer watching him on the right than anywhere else, but it's crazy to think that he could have won the World Cup having played in that sort of reserved way.

 

I dunno, he's still the best I've seen and that's all that anyone can ever really say anyway imo.

 

We can argue the Messi/Maradona/Pele debate until the end of time, but it's never going to be a fact is it?

 

To me, Messi is the greatest of all time, he's the greatest I've seen, by some way. It's all opinion based and can never be decided, but then I guess that's what makes the debate so interesting (well, sometimes at least).

 

[Lotus]

I don't know how anyone can defend what they saw yesterday.

 

You're biased because of your opinions on him from his better performances. The wonderful performances he's given in the past show he can do it but, yesterday he offered next to nothing. Simple as. Shame because i wanted Argentina to win it and had tipped them before the tournament.

 

There's no justification for his no show yesterday unless he was injured. And as he made 2 sprints i presume he wasn't. He may have been totally knackered. I'm sure quite a few players were.