Guest BooBoo Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 We played a helluva lot better at Old Trafford, than Sunderland did today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Regarding the us vs. them comparison, but for an amazing clearance, we would have pegged Liverpool back to 2-2 after whatever it was, 70min? Liverpool's second came from a free kick after a non-foul. We hardly rolled over for them. Did you actually watch the game? They had one of the worst midfield combinations that Liverpool have put out in years and we didn't try and press them, harry them, try and actually pass the ball between them, we just let them have the ball and do what the hell they wanted with it and every time we got it, we panicked and kicked it long straight back to them. Against the top teams that is the game that bucks the trend though, we've played well against Man Utd, City and Chelsea and did pressure them. If we'd played like we did at Old Trafford at Anfield we'd have beaten them. Top teams? They were 1 point above us! Any team that plays with a midfield of Spearing, Adam and Henderson we should be beating, or at least competing with and creating chances against imo, no matter what the crest on the shirt says. Struggling to think of any chances we had at Old Trafford tbh. Good result but a lot of rewriting of how the game actually went based on a penalty that never was and the only reason we got that penalty was because we had a player willing and capable of running at their defence, who has since been sent to the naughty step for being too positive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 And they'll be another 3 points closer by next week!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heneage Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Regarding the us vs. them comparison, but for an amazing clearance, we would have pegged Liverpool back to 2-2 after whatever it was, 70min? Liverpool's second came from a free kick after a non-foul. We hardly rolled over for them. Did you actually watch the game? They had one of the worst midfield combinations that Liverpool have put out in years and we didn't try and press them, harry them, try and actually pass the ball between them, we just let them have the ball and do what the hell they wanted with it and every time we got it, we panicked and kicked it long straight back to them. Against the top teams that is the game that bucks the trend though, we've played well against Man Utd, City and Chelsea and did pressure them. If we'd played like we did at Old Trafford at Anfield we'd have beaten them. Top teams? They were 1 point above us! Any team that plays with a midfield of Spearing, Adam and Henderson we should be beating, or at least competing with and creating chances against imo, no matter what the crest on the shirt says. Struggling to think of any chances we had at Old Trafford tbh. Good result but a lot of rewriting of how the game actually went based on a penalty that never was and the only reason we got that penalty was because we had a player willing and capable of running at their defence, who has since been sent to the naughty step for being too positive. What proof do you have to quantify the second bit sorry? I'm pretty sure the club line on Ben Arfa is 'A great talent that's being ushered in slowly'. It's fairly obvious why we went for Vuckic the other night to begin with, and most people without an agenda can see it. He was always going to offer more hustle and defensive aspects then Ben Arfa. You look at the Bolton game in which he again came on as a sub and had a great impact, in part because of tired legs, I can see exactly why he started Vuckic. That's not to say I agree, but this idea that he holds some sort of personal vendetta against Ben Arfa (again why I don't know, you say because he's positive?) is so far fetched. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Regarding the us vs. them comparison, but for an amazing clearance, we would have pegged Liverpool back to 2-2 after whatever it was, 70min? Liverpool's second came from a free kick after a non-foul. We hardly rolled over for them. Did you actually watch the game? They had one of the worst midfield combinations that Liverpool have put out in years and we didn't try and press them, harry them, try and actually pass the ball between them, we just let them have the ball and do what the hell they wanted with it and every time we got it, we panicked and kicked it long straight back to them. Against the top teams that is the game that bucks the trend though, we've played well against Man Utd, City and Chelsea and did pressure them. If we'd played like we did at Old Trafford at Anfield we'd have beaten them. How long is this nonsense about Chelsea still being a top team going to be peddled? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimburst Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Until they are consistently finishing outside the top four is my guess, Ronaldo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Don't think anyone would have a made a case for us being a top side in 04-05, or the season before that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElDiablo Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Chelsea are in a transitional period, but they've still got enough quality to be classed as a top team in the league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimburst Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Top side? as in a side that finishes near the top of the league? I.e. top four? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I'd be very surprised if "most people" can see why we went with Vuckic ahead of Ben Arfa tbh. You don't pick a player who is going to play behind the forward for his hustle or his defensive aspects. And how is he being ushered in slowly when he previously started three games on the bounce? How is leaving him on the bench completely against Swansea and Norwich and until late against West Brom when we're absolutely desperate for a goal "ushering him in slowly"? It simply doesn't wash. When Antonio Valencia came back from his leg break (he broke it two weeks before Ben Arfa), he was straight into the team in September, no bench appearances, no in and out. He's since made 15 appearances this season, even with the team rotating constantly. Ben Arfa first made the team back in September too, right on schedule, we're now in January and we're still ushering him in?! How is he fit to play 70 minutes at Forest in September and yet it's too much to do half an hour in a desperate situation against Swansea in December? If he's not fit, why is he on the bench? It's an absolutely ridiculous suggestion imo. With our lack of creativity, he should be in the team week in and week out whether it be off Ba or in one of the wide positions. You can talk about Vuckic for as long as you like but there is absolutely zero justification for leaving him out and picking Obertan every week. I don't doubt that he's not match fit... that's because he's hardly getting on the field. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Top side? as in a side that finishes near the top of the league? I.e. top four? the second season we were runners up i wouldn't have called us a top side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 What proof do you have to quantify the second bit sorry? I'm pretty sure the club line on Ben Arfa is 'A great talent that's being ushered in slowly'. It's fairly obvious why we went for Vuckic the other night to begin with, and most people without an agenda can see it. He was always going to offer more hustle and defensive aspects then Ben Arfa. You look at the Bolton game in which he again came on as a sub and had a great impact, in part because of tired legs, I can see exactly why he started Vuckic. That's not to say I agree, but this idea that he holds some sort of personal vendetta against Ben Arfa (again why I don't know, you say because he's positive?) is so far fetched. The agenda card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Top side? as in a side that finishes near the top of the league? I.e. top four? the second season we were runners up i wouldn't have called us a top side. Good point, Robbie Elliott's brilliance notwithstanding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 the second season we were runners up i wouldn't have called us a top side. As runners up we were actually the second top side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heneage Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I'd be very surprised if "most people" can see why we went with Vuckic ahead of Ben Arfa tbh. You don't pick a player who is going to play behind the forward for his hustle or his defensive aspects. And how is he being ushered in slowly when he previously started three games on the bounce? How is leaving him on the bench completely against Swansea and Norwich and until late against West Brom when we're absolutely desperate for a goal "ushering him in slowly"? It simply doesn't wash. When Antonio Valencia came back from his leg break (he broke it two weeks before Ben Arfa), he was straight into the team in September, no bench appearances, no in and out. He's since made 15 appearances this season, even with the team rotating constantly. Ben Arfa first made the team back in September too, right on schedule, we're now in January and we're still ushering him in?! How is he fit to play 70 minutes at Forest in September and yet it's too much to do half an hour in a desperate situation against Swansea in December? If he's not fit, why is he on the bench? It's an absolutely ridiculous suggestion imo. With our lack of creativity, he should be in the team week in and week out whether it be off Ba or in one of the wide positions. You can talk about Vuckic for as long as you like but there is absolutely zero justification for leaving him out and picking Obertan every week. I don't doubt that he's not match fit... that's because he's hardly getting on the field. Ben Arfa was fine in the summer until he got injured again against Sporting KC, that's why he hasn't played more. Yes we're taking a softly softly approach, but I'd rather do that than throw him in, like porcelain into a tumble dryer. The Valencia comparison is redundant anyway because they suffered different injuries. You've made it abundantly clear you don't like Pardew, so I can't see your opinion wavering even if Ben Arfa plays every minute this next month. There have been instances we could of used him and haven't but to make out like the manager has some issue with him because he's an attacking positive player (something you've said) is such a facetious attitude, it makes it difficult to form any kind of actual debate. Pardew knows that Ben Arfa (technically at least) is our best attacking player, Ba being the most effective (to date). When he feels it's right he'll work him into the side, now if his decisions cost us, he'll lose his job. But for right now I can see why he wants to play it cautiously with him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 the second season we were runners up i wouldn't have called us a top side. As runners up we were actually the second top side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Pardew's the one saying that Ben Arfa's not playing because he doesn't defend enough and gives the ball away, not me. The injury is rarely brought into it. The Valencia comparison is not redundant at all unless you think Pardew is acting on medical advice - why does he not say that? And why did he apparently ignore that advice against Forest but not against Wigan? Against Bolton but not against Swansea? I wasn't complaining earlier in the season when results were good, so your point about Pardew is just not relevant. I could just as easily say your agenda is to defend absolutely everything the owner and manager does, I've certainly never seen anything else. 1 win is 9 is an appalling run especially given some of the games we've had and means we need something against Man Utd. I'm more than prepared to say when I think he's done a good job (Stoke for example was as good tactically as Liverpool was bad) but his management over the last month has been shocking imo and really fucked up the good start we had. The team is playing very negatively and coming out with stuff about not playing Ben Arfa because he might concede possession is symptomatic of that, and certainly not consistent with other players he is picking who can barely pick out a black and white shirt. How long are you prepared to let him sit on the bench and have Obertan play ahead of him? If we get to March and he's still getting 15 minutes when we're rolling over again to Norwich and West Brom, is that still ok? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heneage Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Come off it, like Ben Arfa could of changed the Norwich game man, unless you're telling me he can play at CB too? Pardew sees more of him than I do, but I'd happily see BArfa out wide, in fact I've advocated it (in a few places). Again I don't quite understand why you seem so surprised. Pardew's success this season has been built on a stern defensive organization, a player like Ben Arfa doesn't conform to that, he's not concentrated or committed, Obertan is. I think there'll come a point where he'll change, and I'd imagine it's soon. But a game at Anfield won't be the one where Pardew abandons what he knows, and what has brought him success this year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Come off it, like Ben Arfa could of changed the Norwich game man, unless you're telling me he can play at CB too? Pardew sees more of him than I do, but I'd happily see BArfa out wide, in fact I've advocated it (in a few places). Again I don't quite understand why you seem so surprised. Pardew's success this season has been built on a stern defensive organization, a player like Ben Arfa doesn't conform to that, he's not concentrated or committed, Obertan is. I think there'll come a point where he'll change, and I'd imagine it's soon. But a game at Anfield won't be the one where Pardew abandons what he knows, and what has brought him success this year. Yes, he should have come on at 3-2 right after Ba scored to try and force the game, keep the ball in their half and pin them back. He brought on Sammy, so presumably you agree with him that Sammy could change the game but Ben Arfa couldn't? Your sentence about Obertan is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here in a long time. Concentrated and committed?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnypd Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I can see why Pardew has been the way he has with Ben Arfa. He's not back to his best, no matter what people say, and it's huge injury to come back from. It took Ramsey a very long time, including two loans, to start playing at his optimum. You have to remember that he is still adjusting to English football as well, making it doubly hard. So I honestly don't blame Pardew for the majority of this, apart from not bringing Ben Arfa on when we needed him, and starting a worse player at Anfield. However, it has been 4 months since he came back - the only way he can make that step up from being match fit to being at his physical and creative peak is a continuous run of starting matches. Yeah, he might underwhelm for the first 4 or 5 games he starts, but Obertan's had 17 games and been an embarrassment, so I think we can take that. Even Ben Arfa at 70% as he is now is more likely a better prospect than Obertan at 100%, who has given us some of the worst performances i've ever seen from a first-choice Newcastle winger. The thing to do now is play Ben Arfa game after game after game so we start seeing what he is capable of. Obertan was afforded that luxury and (misguided) faith, why not Hatem? I just hope Pardew hasn't backed himself into a corner where he values his opinion being vindicated more than the team doing well. It sounds absurd, but Souness and Allardyce also fell into that trap, where they were more interested in winning battles against fans, the press and certain popular players, than they were in doing the right thing for the side. Their overly inflated egos blinded them. Not saying Pardew is doing this, btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 at Obertan's defensive qualities been one of the reasons for our good form earlier in the season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heneage Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Come off it, like Ben Arfa could of changed the Norwich game man, unless you're telling me he can play at CB too? Pardew sees more of him than I do, but I'd happily see BArfa out wide, in fact I've advocated it (in a few places). Again I don't quite understand why you seem so surprised. Pardew's success this season has been built on a stern defensive organization, a player like Ben Arfa doesn't conform to that, he's not concentrated or committed, Obertan is. I think there'll come a point where he'll change, and I'd imagine it's soon. But a game at Anfield won't be the one where Pardew abandons what he knows, and what has brought him success this year. Yes, he should have come on at 3-2 right after Ba scored to try and force the game, keep the ball in their half and pin them back. He brought on Sammy, so presumably you agree with him that Sammy could change the game but Ben Arfa couldn't? Your sentence about Obertan is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here in a long time. Concentrated and committed?! No I don't rate Sammy tbh. Ben Arfa floats around, he lacks self discipline and would rarely chase back. The one time he did defend (City away) he gave away a penalty. Obertan for all his inadequacies in attack and actual contribution will at least track back and put effort into the defensive side of the game. Considering we've an absolute liability at RB you need that extra body. If you look at Ben Arfa's best performance for this club (Everton away) he was ahead of a fantastic fullback in Enrique, who could shoulder the burden of having to do a lot of work. Until we can provide him that solid backup I don't know if I'd like to see him outwide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Obertan's tracking back and defensive effort is so lacklustre he might as well not be there tbh. I purposely sit and watch him when we're attacked down the right. He does nowt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Come off it, like Ben Arfa could of changed the Norwich game man, unless you're telling me he can play at CB too? Pardew sees more of him than I do, but I'd happily see BArfa out wide, in fact I've advocated it (in a few places). Again I don't quite understand why you seem so surprised. Pardew's success this season has been built on a stern defensive organization, a player like Ben Arfa doesn't conform to that, he's not concentrated or committed, Obertan is. I think there'll come a point where he'll change, and I'd imagine it's soon. But a game at Anfield won't be the one where Pardew abandons what he knows, and what has brought him success this year. Yes, he should have come on at 3-2 right after Ba scored to try and force the game, keep the ball in their half and pin them back. He brought on Sammy, so presumably you agree with him that Sammy could change the game but Ben Arfa couldn't? Your sentence about Obertan is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here in a long time. Concentrated and committed?! No I don't rate Sammy tbh. Ben Arfa floats around, he lacks self discipline and would rarely chase back. The one time he did defend (City away) he gave away a penalty. Obertan for all his inadequacies in attack and actual contribution will at least track back and put effort into the defensive side of the game. Considering we've an absolute liability at RB you need that extra body. If you look at Ben Arfa's best performance for this club (Everton away) he was ahead of a fantastic fullback in Enrique, who could shoulder the burden of having to do a lot of work. Until we can provide him that solid backup I don't know if I'd like to see him outwide. We'll have to agree to disagree about Obertan, I think he bottles challenges and puts very little effort in defensively. I can appreciate what Jonas offers defensively even if he's having a shit game with the ball, I don't see it in the slightest from Obertan. I also think that's a very negative way to look at the game, exactly the way I absolutely hate managers looking at it, same reason I detested Souness for the Robert situation. You should build your team around your best creative players, not leave them out because they don't do enough graft. If they're not doing it, it's your job as manager to either get them to do it or get the other players to fill in. David Silva's hardly a workhorse, he'd be a poorer player if he was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heneage Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Come off it, like Ben Arfa could of changed the Norwich game man, unless you're telling me he can play at CB too? Pardew sees more of him than I do, but I'd happily see BArfa out wide, in fact I've advocated it (in a few places). Again I don't quite understand why you seem so surprised. Pardew's success this season has been built on a stern defensive organization, a player like Ben Arfa doesn't conform to that, he's not concentrated or committed, Obertan is. I think there'll come a point where he'll change, and I'd imagine it's soon. But a game at Anfield won't be the one where Pardew abandons what he knows, and what has brought him success this year. Yes, he should have come on at 3-2 right after Ba scored to try and force the game, keep the ball in their half and pin them back. He brought on Sammy, so presumably you agree with him that Sammy could change the game but Ben Arfa couldn't? Your sentence about Obertan is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here in a long time. Concentrated and committed?! No I don't rate Sammy tbh. Ben Arfa floats around, he lacks self discipline and would rarely chase back. The one time he did defend (City away) he gave away a penalty. Obertan for all his inadequacies in attack and actual contribution will at least track back and put effort into the defensive side of the game. Considering we've an absolute liability at RB you need that extra body. If you look at Ben Arfa's best performance for this club (Everton away) he was ahead of a fantastic fullback in Enrique, who could shoulder the burden of having to do a lot of work. Until we can provide him that solid backup I don't know if I'd like to see him outwide. We'll have to agree to disagree about Obertan, I think he bottles challenges and puts very little effort in defensively. I can appreciate what Jonas offers defensively even if he's having a s*** game with the ball, I don't see it in the slightest from Obertan. I also think that's a very negative way to look at the game, exactly the way I absolutely hate managers looking at it, same reason I detested Souness for the Robert situation. You should build your team around your best creative players, not leave them out because they don't do enough graft. If they're not doing it, it's your job as manager to either get them to do it or get the other players to fill in. David Silva's hardly a workhorse, he'd be a poorer player if he was. No we won't, we'll fight until one of us gives up. FWIW, I think if he's got any sense he'll use him against Man United given what happened yesterday (assuming their side is much the same) because Carrick clearly has a coronary when someone runs at him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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