Guest je85 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Nothing has been proved at all yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Santon, Coloccini, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Jonas and Marveaux would all walk into any of those 2004-7 teams imo. Are you even addressing me here? Just so I'm sure. It seems like you're not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolution Number 9 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 TBH Dave if buying 'next level' players is what got us stuck with Michael fucking Owen then I'm happy for us to not bother with 'next level' players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Santon, Coloccini, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Jonas and Marveaux would all walk into any of those 2004-7 teams imo. Are you even addressing me here? Just so I'm sure. It seems like you're not. I am, you're saying we're no better than when he came in, if you don't think that group of players aren't a massive upgrade on what we had, particularly 2006 onwards, I'm surprised tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I can't see how we're any further forward than we were when Ashley took over. We're still a mid-table team, with an average manager, with a selection of good players and dross. first part might be proven very wrong or very right this season, on paper we have more talent and pace in the side than any time since SBR's days and it's the most excited and hopeful i've been for quite some time tbh (about the players we have), let's see how they do over the full season though obviously as regards the bit in bold other than manyoo, chelski, man city and possibly spurs you've just described most of the other teams in the league, in fact some of them wouldn't even fit that description Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 TBH Dave if buying 'next level' players is what got us stuck with Michael fucking Owen then I'm happy for us to not bother with 'next level' players. It turned out to be a disasterous signing, which cost us a fortune and left us with a crocked cunt who didn't care less about us. It was also a case of putting all our eggs in one 'Shearer-replacement'-shaped basket. Even the transfer fee was suspiciously high, IMO purely so it would break our transfer record and I'm pretty certain I posted that on this forum at the time. I'd never deny any of that, it worked out very wrong. You can't get away from the facts that at the time he was 25 years old, England's best striker and fully fit. Nobody could have predicted what happened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 From the pre-Ashley squad, I can count Given, N'Zogbia, Milner & Martins who'd get into this side, and we're hardly weak in the first three positions these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I can't see how we're any further forward than we were when Ashley took over. We're still a mid-table team, with an average manager, with a selection of good players and dross. first part might be proven very wrong or very right this season, on paper we have more talent and pace in the side than any time since SBR's days and it's the most excited and hopeful i've been for quite some time tbh (about the players we have), let's see how they do over the full season though obviously as regards the bit in bold other than manyoo, chelski, man city and possibly spurs you've just described most of the other teams in the league, in fact some of them wouldn't even fit that description We've done some cracking business in the transfer market and picked up some real bargains (Tiote, Cabaye, Bafra and so on..)..Think the jury is still out on Santon and Obertan (they need 6 months before we can tell what is going on with them). But, for me we still don't have a PL quality striker (Best is doing a good job within his limitations). And more importantly the first eleven has very little quality cover..One or more inj to the defence or the forward line and we're suddenly dealing with a very shaky first eleven. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 From the pre-Ashley squad, I can count Given, N'Zogbia, Milner & Martins who'd get into this side, and we're hardly weak in the first three positions these days. You're going off on a tangent here, I never said we don't have some good players now and I never said we didn't have some shit players then either. It's ridiculously ingenuous to just say some of of our players now would get into some of the sides of the past and therefore that's proof of us being a better team, or club. Some of the players you mention I'd have loved to see in Sir Bobby's side, does that mean we are better now than we were then? Does it fuck. Can't be arsed carrying on this line of conversation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olliemort Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Bullshit article.Did he forget about our relegation only 2 years ago?Im not getting exicted about being undefeated afer 7 matches considering the oppositon we have played.We do have a very strong first 11 but all it takes is an injury to Colo and Cabaye then we would struggle.We dont have any fucking cover because Ashley is a cunt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolution Number 9 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 TBH Dave if buying 'next level' players is what got us stuck with Michael f***ing Owen then I'm happy for us to not bother with 'next level' players. It turned out to be a disasterous signing, which cost us a fortune and left us with a crocked c*** who didn't care less about us. It was also a case of putting all our eggs in one 'Shearer-replacement'-shaped basket. Even the transfer fee was suspiciously high, IMO purely so it would break our transfer record and I'm pretty certain I posted that on this forum at the time. I'd never deny any of that, it worked out very wrong. You can't get away from the facts that at the time he was 25 years old, England's best striker and fully fit. Nobody could have predicted what happened. Exactly, under the old system, a transfer mistake could have the club losing about £40m on Michael Owen, with the way things are now our only real transfer disaster off the top of my head thus far was James Perch, who's costing the club comparitively nowt, doesn't seem to have a huge ego and could be thrown in the reserves with little worry when it didn't work out. Mike and co have certainly made a lot of mistakes but this absolutely isn't one of them IMO. I'll take a great scouting system, a strong youth academy, sustainability and the type of players we're bringing in now ahead of the old ways of giving uninterested big names a big payday every single time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 From the pre-Ashley squad, I can count Given, N'Zogbia, Milner & Martins who'd get into this side, and we're hardly weak in the first three positions these days. You're going off on a tangent here, I never said we don't have some good players now and I never said we didn't have some s*** players then either. It's ridiculously ingenuous to just say some of of our players now would get into some of the sides of the past and therefore that's proof of us being a better team, or club. Some of the players you mention I'd have loved to see in Sir Bobby's side, does that mean we are better now than we were then? Does it f***. Can't be arsed carrying on this line of conversation. You've said you don't think we're further along than 2006 or whenever, yet we've got 6 or 7 players who'd walk into that side. That says something doesn't it? I'm not talking "some" players, I'm talking about the main core of our side. Just find it a bit strange you say you're not bothered about balance books, etc. but are about what happens on the pitch, yet financially AND talentwise we're so much better now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Mike and co have certainly made a lot of mistakes but this absolutely isn't one of them IMO. I'll take a great scouting system, a strong youth academy, sustainability and the type of players we're bringing in now ahead of the old ways of giving uninterested big names a big payday every single time. The things they've done well have happened for the wrong reasons. It wouldn't be a problem if that happened for all areas of the club. He could still not give a shit but run things properly. That hasn't been the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 But, for me we still don't have a PL quality striker (Best is doing a good job within his limitations). And more importantly the first eleven has very little quality cover..One or more inj to the defence or the forward line and we're suddenly dealing with a very shaky first eleven. i'm on a roll here again, who else around us has what you'd deem a PL quality striker, villa? spurs have one on loan but they're a level above us everton have fuck all and liverpool spunked 50m+ on broken bellamy, carroll and suarez...only one of them is top class imo, bellamy will fill in of course until his knees pack up, carroll tbc i'm not making excuses but best is scoring fucking goals, when does his scoring ration make him a PL striker? fine he's never gonna be a drogba or a shearer but he seems to be a very good poacher and have a knack of being in the right place...maybe it's time we got over our number 9 complex? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Santon, Coloccini, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Jonas and Marveaux would all walk into any of those 2004-7 teams imo. This is where we need to be careful although if everything goes well (big if) then if over a season they do it, they I'd agree with you. But lets just put the koolaid down a moment. Cabaye has had one good game, Jonas for me is still a very unpredictable performer (still doesn't cross when he should or fluffs the cross) and we don't know if Marveux can really do it for us or where he can fit into the side (he's shown some good touches). On the other hand Bafra and Colo injury free will be huge assests. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolution Number 9 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Mike and co have certainly made a lot of mistakes but this absolutely isn't one of them IMO. I'll take a great scouting system, a strong youth academy, sustainability and the type of players we're bringing in now ahead of the old ways of giving uninterested big names a big payday every single time. The things they've done well have happened for the wrong reasons. It wouldn't be a problem if that happened for all areas of the club. He could still not give a s*** but run things properly. That hasn't been the case. I'm not saying he's a good owner, just that IMO this is one thing they've gotten right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 TBH Dave if buying 'next level' players is what got us stuck with Michael f***ing Owen then I'm happy for us to not bother with 'next level' players. It turned out to be a disasterous signing, which cost us a fortune and left us with a crocked c*** who didn't care less about us. It was also a case of putting all our eggs in one 'Shearer-replacement'-shaped basket. Even the transfer fee was suspiciously high, IMO purely so it would break our transfer record and I'm pretty certain I posted that on this forum at the time. I'd never deny any of that, it worked out very wrong. You can't get away from the facts that at the time he was 25 years old, England's best striker and fully fit. Nobody could have predicted what happened. Exactly, under the old system, a transfer mistake could have the club losing about £40m on Michael Owen, with the way things are now our only real transfer disaster off the top of my head thus far was James Perch, who's costing the club comparitively nowt, doesn't seem to have a huge ego and could be thrown in the reserves with little worry when it didn't work out. Mike and co have certainly made a lot of mistakes but this absolutely isn't one of them IMO. I'll take a great scouting system, a strong youth academy, sustainability and the type of players we're bringing in now ahead of the old ways of giving uninterested big names a big payday every single time. You'd think Michael Owen was the rule rather than the exception though, like we never brought any excellent bargains in or promoted any youth until Ashley turned up. I was totally against us losing him in the end, but how much money has Joey Barton cost us for what we got? Xisco? Smith? Campbell even? Coloccini was £10m and is apparently on £80,000 per week. Signed, paid and kept at the club by the Ashley regime. He's turned out to be a great signing, but as things stand we wouldn't take that risk and wouldn't get that player. If he'd had a serious career-threatening injury shortly after arriving he could have easily been 'another Owen'. My overall point was never to directly compare and say player X we have now is better/cheaper than player Z we used to have. Ultimately I don't think we're particularly any further forward as club and that's why to me, particular praise of Ashley and his methods is unwarranted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 But, for me we still don't have a PL quality striker (Best is doing a good job within his limitations). And more importantly the first eleven has very little quality cover..One or more inj to the defence or the forward line and we're suddenly dealing with a very shaky first eleven. i'm on a roll here again, who else around us has what you'd deem a PL quality striker, villa? spurs have one on loan but they're a level above us everton have fuck all and liverpool spunked 50m+ on broken bellamy, carroll and suarez...only one of them is top class imo, bellamy will fill in of course until his knees pack up, carroll tbc i'm not making excuses but best is scoring fucking goals, when does his scoring ration make him a PL striker? fine he's never gonna be a drogba or a shearer but he seems to be a very good poacher and have a knack of being in the right place...maybe it's time we got over our number 9 complex? I know you're all tripping on here with regard to Best, but he simply isn't good enough as the mainline striker. End of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Did someone just say Cabaye's had one good game? Judging pretty harshly imo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Santon, Coloccini, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Jonas and Marveaux would all walk into any of those 2004-7 teams imo. This is where we need to be careful although if everything goes well (big if) then if over a season they do it, they I'd agree with you. But lets just put the koolaid down a moment. Cabaye has had one good game, Jonas for me is still a very unpredictable performer (still doesn't cross when he should or fluffs the cross) and we don't know if Marveux can really do it for us or where he can fit into the side (he's shown some good touches). On the other hand Bafra and Colo injury free will be huge assests. Santon hasn't even played a game for us yet ffs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 TBH Dave if buying 'next level' players is what got us stuck with Michael f***ing Owen then I'm happy for us to not bother with 'next level' players. It turned out to be a disasterous signing, which cost us a fortune and left us with a crocked c*** who didn't care less about us. It was also a case of putting all our eggs in one 'Shearer-replacement'-shaped basket. Even the transfer fee was suspiciously high, IMO purely so it would break our transfer record and I'm pretty certain I posted that on this forum at the time. I'd never deny any of that, it worked out very wrong. You can't get away from the facts that at the time he was 25 years old, England's best striker and fully fit. Nobody could have predicted what happened. Exactly, under the old system, a transfer mistake could have the club losing about £40m on Michael Owen, with the way things are now our only real transfer disaster off the top of my head thus far was James Perch, who's costing the club comparitively nowt, doesn't seem to have a huge ego and could be thrown in the reserves with little worry when it didn't work out. Mike and co have certainly made a lot of mistakes but this absolutely isn't one of them IMO. I'll take a great scouting system, a strong youth academy, sustainability and the type of players we're bringing in now ahead of the old ways of giving uninterested big names a big payday every single time. You'd think Michael Owen was the rule rather than the exception though, like we never brought any excellent bargains in or promoted any youth until Ashley turned up. I was totally against us losing him in the end, but how much money has Joey Barton cost us for what we got? Xisco? Smith? Campbell even? Coloccini was £10m and is apparently on £80,000 per week. Signed, paid and kept at the club by the Ashley regime. He's turned out to be a great signing, but as things stand we wouldn't take that risk and wouldn't get that player. If he'd had a serious career-threatening injury shortly after arriving he could have easily been 'another Owen'. My overall point was never to directly compare and say player X we have now is better/cheaper than player Z we used to have. Ultimately I don't think we're particularly any further forward as club and that's why to me, particular praise of Ashley and his methods is unwarranted. We've yet to play a decent side. QPR nearly killed us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Santon, Coloccini, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Jonas and Marveaux would all walk into any of those 2004-7 teams imo. This is where we need to be careful although if everything goes well (big if) then if over a season they do it, they I'd agree with you. But lets just put the koolaid down a moment. Cabaye has had one good game, Jonas for me is still a very unpredictable performer (still doesn't cross when he should or fluffs the cross) and we don't know if Marveux can really do it for us or where he can fit into the side (he's shown some good touches). On the other hand Bafra and Colo injury free will be huge assests. Santon hasn't even played a game for us yet ffs. So that doesn't make him better than Babayaro or Ramage? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I love you as a poster Dave but I'm puzzled when you use that argument. It's like saying if we'd signed Gameiro it wouldn't mean we're better because he's never played for us/in England. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolution Number 9 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 TBH Dave if buying 'next level' players is what got us stuck with Michael f***ing Owen then I'm happy for us to not bother with 'next level' players. It turned out to be a disasterous signing, which cost us a fortune and left us with a crocked c*** who didn't care less about us. It was also a case of putting all our eggs in one 'Shearer-replacement'-shaped basket. Even the transfer fee was suspiciously high, IMO purely so it would break our transfer record and I'm pretty certain I posted that on this forum at the time. I'd never deny any of that, it worked out very wrong. You can't get away from the facts that at the time he was 25 years old, England's best striker and fully fit. Nobody could have predicted what happened. Exactly, under the old system, a transfer mistake could have the club losing about £40m on Michael Owen, with the way things are now our only real transfer disaster off the top of my head thus far was James Perch, who's costing the club comparitively nowt, doesn't seem to have a huge ego and could be thrown in the reserves with little worry when it didn't work out. Mike and co have certainly made a lot of mistakes but this absolutely isn't one of them IMO. I'll take a great scouting system, a strong youth academy, sustainability and the type of players we're bringing in now ahead of the old ways of giving uninterested big names a big payday every single time. You'd think Michael Owen was the rule rather than the exception though, like we never brought any excellent bargains in or promoted any youth until Ashley turned up. I was totally against us losing him in the end, but how much money has Joey Barton cost us for what we got? Xisco? Smith? Campbell even? Coloccini was £10m and is apparently on £80,000 per week. Signed, paid and kept at the club by the Ashley regime. He's turned out to be a great signing, but as things stand we wouldn't take that risk and wouldn't get that player. If he'd had a serious career-threatening injury shortly after arriving he could have easily been 'another Owen'. My overall point was never to directly compare and say player X we have now is better/cheaper than player Z we used to have. Ultimately I don't think we're particularly any further forward as club and that's why to me, particular praise of Ashley and his methods is unwarranted. I thought it was well-documented that our youth system was a bit wank before the new regime decided to improve it? And exactly how many 'excellent bargains' did we bring in under the old system, because I can't remember any more than two or three? Our scouting system seemed like utter shit tbh. We aren't necessarily further forward as a club yet in your opinion, but even you can't deny that our potential for improvement is so much greater now than it was back then. We were the absolute definition of a dead end club man, with a big-money but not big-talent aging team going nowhere but midtable at best and wasting money left right and centre. Now, we have arguably a much more talented team, the majority with their best years ahead of them, with what seems to be genuine quality youth coming through, a scouting team that's absolutely amongst the best out there at quickly spotting and taking advantage of an opportunity, and more important than anything there's genuine optimism about what could happen on the pitch. Sorry like, but how you can still pander for 'the good old days' is simply beyond me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 But, for me we still don't have a PL quality striker (Best is doing a good job within his limitations). And more importantly the first eleven has very little quality cover..One or more inj to the defence or the forward line and we're suddenly dealing with a very shaky first eleven. i'm on a roll here again, who else around us has what you'd deem a PL quality striker, villa? spurs have one on loan but they're a level above us everton have f*** all and liverpool spunked 50m+ on broken bellamy, carroll and suarez...only one of them is top class imo, bellamy will fill in of course until his knees pack up, carroll tbc i'm not making excuses but best is scoring f***ing goals, when does his scoring ration make him a PL striker? fine he's never gonna be a drogba or a shearer but he seems to be a very good poacher and have a knack of being in the right place...maybe it's time we got over our number 9 complex? I know you're all tripping on here with regard to Best, but he simply isn't good enough as the mainline striker. End of. http://yubacityoffice.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/gary-coleman.jpg?w=480 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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