AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Not sure your logic completely works oldtype, the problem with it is that players with nowhere near the talent of HBA give the ball away just as much, if not more. He just does it while trying to create something, they do it by lumping the ball forward, tripping over it, not moving fast enough, mis-controlling etc etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Icke - Son of God Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 There's too much in the way of expectation that he'll perform at the top of his game every single game from some of our fans at the moment. He's coming back after a very serious injury and he's still adjusting to the English game. Baffling to think that Obertan has more appearances to his name than HBA, despite the latter being here for 12 months more. I've seen enough since the Bolton game (what is it? 3 goals and 3 assists?) to give me heart that he'll develop into a top player for us. Blackburn was an off day for almost everyone and frankly it's scandalous we came away with 3 points given how badly we played. It's extremely harsh to single him out for criticism. Personally I think his attitude has been spot on. We've seen little of the l'enfant terrible we were promised when he signed, both on and off the pitch. He seems to accept he's got to fight for his place and he may not get on the pitch every game, so I've no idea where this notion he needs to grow up comes from. Ben Arfa comes with significant disadvantages, i.e. his tendency to give away the ball, his lack of defensive support etc. What's supposed to cancel out these disadvantages is supposed to be his unparalleled flair and natural ability that can produce moments of brilliance. As such, his production needs to be held to a higher standard than others. He's the kind of player you'd expect to turn things around when the others aren't preforming well. If he is just expected to play well when the rest of the team does and is immune to criticism when he plays badly, (he was much worse than most of his teammates were against Blackburn mind,) what's the point? Obviously he's better than Obertan, but Obertan is fucking terrible. This guy needs to be held to higher standards. You're right, however let's judge him after he's had a decent run of starts, rather than a handful in a variety of positions/formations in starting XIs where the contrast in quality is often stark. Wor kid raised an interesting point in Wednesday night - we hoof the ball long almost every goal kick, continually giving it away in the process so it's a bit daft to do your nut about HBA losing it a few times a match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
durhamunigeordie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Not sure your logic completely works oldtype, the problem with it is that players with nowhere near the talent of HBA give the ball away just as much, if not more. He just does it while trying to create something, they do it by lumping the ball forward, tripping over it, not moving fast enough, mis-controlling etc etc. Spot on. Would much rather watch Ben Arfa lose the ball trying to take a man on that the likes of Raylor, Simpson, Williamson etc pumping long balls all day for Shola to lose in the air, or Obertan trying to cut back inside when he has effectively already beaten the man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 There's too much in the way of expectation that he'll perform at the top of his game every single game from some of our fans at the moment. He's coming back after a very serious injury and he's still adjusting to the English game. Baffling to think that Obertan has more appearances to his name than HBA, despite the latter being here for 12 months more. I've seen enough since the Bolton game (what is it? 3 goals and 3 assists?) to give me heart that he'll develop into a top player for us. Blackburn was an off day for almost everyone and frankly it's scandalous we came away with 3 points given how badly we played. It's extremely harsh to single him out for criticism. Personally I think his attitude has been spot on. We've seen little of the l'enfant terrible we were promised when he signed, both on and off the pitch. He seems to accept he's got to fight for his place and he may not get on the pitch every game, so I've no idea where this notion he needs to grow up comes from. Very well put Mr, excellent post! Can not wait until the Dembas are fired up, HBA will benefit so much from that. Half the time he loses the ball, its because little movement in front of him. Excited! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 There's too much in the way of expectation that he'll perform at the top of his game every single game from some of our fans at the moment. He's coming back after a very serious injury and he's still adjusting to the English game. Baffling to think that Obertan has more appearances to his name than HBA, despite the latter being here for 12 months more. I've seen enough since the Bolton game (what is it? 3 goals and 3 assists?) to give me heart that he'll develop into a top player for us. Blackburn was an off day for almost everyone and frankly it's scandalous we came away with 3 points given how badly we played. It's extremely harsh to single him out for criticism. Personally I think his attitude has been spot on. We've seen little of the l'enfant terrible we were promised when he signed, both on and off the pitch. He seems to accept he's got to fight for his place and he may not get on the pitch every game, so I've no idea where this notion he needs to grow up comes from. Ben Arfa comes with significant disadvantages, i.e. his tendency to give away the ball, his lack of defensive support etc. What's supposed to cancel out these disadvantages is supposed to be his unparalleled flair and natural ability that can produce moments of brilliance. As such, his production needs to be held to a higher standard than others. He's the kind of player you'd expect to turn things around when the others aren't preforming well. If he is just expected to play well when the rest of the team does and is immune to criticism when he plays badly, (he was much worse than most of his teammates were against Blackburn mind,) what's the point? Obviously he's better than Obertan, but Obertan is f***ing terrible. This guy needs to be held to higher standards. Nice attempt but flaws in quite a few areas. This gives the ball away point has been debated to death, all our players do especially when we play long ball. The only attacking player who is an exception is Jonas. This lack of defensive support is a figment of your imagination no doubt aided by stereotype that flair players must be lazy. Sure he's no ace in performing sliding tackle or clearing the ball off the line BUT whenever HBA loses the ball, he works as hard as any player in getting the ball back. He tracks back well into the defensive half if the fullback overlaps. Observe his defensive game next time you watch. Finally all this talk is fine if we have a better alternative, we don't Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I don't think anybody can debate that he gives the ball away more than other players. Shola may be the one exception, but he tends to do so in more advanced areas. Also, he's Shola. As for defensive support, it's not a matter of skill or effort (although I doubt he's got much of a tackle on him), it's a matter of position. He's going to (rightfully) be staying in areas where he won't be available to offer defensive support. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpy Gunt Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 HBA needs Tiote and Cabaye in the middle. Otherwise he's a luxury we can't afford. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxfree Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 HBA needs Tiote and Cabaye in the middle. Otherwise he's a luxury we can't afford. Of course we can. I any case he needs time on the pitch to get back to his best (,and some decent attacking players around him...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorJ_01 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Aye, hoy on Ameobi instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpy Gunt Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 HBA needs Tiote and Cabaye in the middle. Otherwise he's a luxury we can't afford. Of course we can. I any case he needs time on the pitch to get back to his best (,and some decent attacking players around him...). If he starts v Villa he'll be off at HT or before. We need our strongest midfield to allow the luxury of HBA. Unless he starts up front in a 4-4-2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexf Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Bring him on with Cisse after about 65mins. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I don't think anybody can debate that he gives the ball away more than other players. Shola may be the one exception, but he tends to do so in more advanced areas. Also, he's Shola. As for defensive support, it's not a matter of skill or effort (although I doubt he's got much of a tackle on him), it's a matter of position. He's going to (rightfully) be staying in areas where he won't be available to offer defensive support. I disagree. It depends what you mean by giving the ball away. If you mean only when a player tries to dribble then of course coz no other fucker except maybe Jonas and occasionally Best dribbles. Why should a long ball that is headed away by the opponent's center back not be considered as 'giving the ball away'? Not quite sure on your point of defensive support, of course in terms of positioning all attacking players by default should be staying high up the pitch when we have the ball so that they emm attack. The point is when we lose the ball, HBA is no different from other players in tracking his opposite number or moving down to help the defence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Tiote and Guthrie would be fine too. Cabaye isn't as big a miss as Tiote is, with how he's played this year Guthrie is a very good replacement for Cabaye. We do look a great deal softer with Tiote out though, we don't have anyone who's even half as much an animal as him in CM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 HBA needs Tiote and Cabaye in the middle. Otherwise he's a luxury we can't afford. Of course we can. I any case he needs time on the pitch to get back to his best (,and some decent attacking players around him...). If he starts v Villa he'll be off at HT or before. We need our strongest midfield to allow the luxury of HBA. Unless he starts up front in a 4-4-2 As opposed to Obertan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 We miss Tiote even more than the strikers really, he's essential to everything we do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpy Gunt Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 HBA needs Tiote and Cabaye in the middle. Otherwise he's a luxury we can't afford. Of course we can. I any case he needs time on the pitch to get back to his best (,and some decent attacking players around him...). If he starts v Villa he'll be off at HT or before. We need our strongest midfield to allow the luxury of HBA. Unless he starts up front in a 4-4-2 As opposed to Obertan? Who mentioned Obertan? Obertans shit. HBA can't play the system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 We miss Tiote even more than the strikers really, he's essential to everything we do. I'd argue Guthrie has proven to be a worthy deputy for Tiote, whereas Shola and Best... The Cabaye suspension on top of Tiote being away at the ACN is very worrying though. Let's hope the Demba's do the business this Sunday, then anything we can get from Spurs is a huge bonus before we get our first choice midfield pairing back for the Wolves match 2 weeks later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I don't think anybody can debate that he gives the ball away more than other players. Shola may be the one exception, but he tends to do so in more advanced areas. Also, he's Shola. As for defensive support, it's not a matter of skill or effort (although I doubt he's got much of a tackle on him), it's a matter of position. He's going to (rightfully) be staying in areas where he won't be available to offer defensive support. I disagree. It depends what you mean by giving the ball away. If you mean only when a player tries to dribble then of course coz no other fucker except maybe Jonas and occasionally Best dribbles. Why should a long ball that is headed away by the opponent's center back not be considered as 'giving the ball away'? Not quite sure on your point of defensive support, of course in terms of positioning all attacking players by default should be staying high up the pitch when we have the ball so that they emm attack. The point is when we lose the ball, HBA is no different from other players in tracking his opposite number or moving down to help the defence Aside from the fact that it happens for frequently, there's an obvious qualitative difference here. For the former, everyone is in an attacking position and very vulnerable to counterattacks. For the latter, there is time and space to recover. The second point is just wrong imo. On average HBA always occupies more advanced position than his counterparts in similar areas of the pitch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a shit 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 HBA needs Tiote and Cabaye in the middle. Otherwise he's a luxury we can't afford. Of course we can. I any case he needs time on the pitch to get back to his best (,and some decent attacking players around him...). If he starts v Villa he'll be off at HT or before. We need our strongest midfield to allow the luxury of HBA. Unless he starts up front in a 4-4-2 As opposed to Obertan? Who mentioned Obertan? Obertans shit. HBA can't play the system. What system? Who plays on the right hand side? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 DEMBII ffs. And I don't think Guthrie and Cabaye is an ideal partnership in the middle tbh. Cabaye ends up playing the more defensive of the roles as Guthrie can't, honestly, and his game is restricted as a result. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a shit 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. Spot on Wullie. It's fucking insane man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 His best game this season was against QPR, without Ba, Cisse and Tiote. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 If this system is what we played against Blackburn (in either half) then I never want to see it ever again. It was the worst game of football i've ever watched. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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