Unbelievable Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 We're hardly playing consistantly crap football ffs Pardew makes do with what he has available. We've scored some lovely goals this season Exactly, it's getting silly now and a lot seems to be based solely on the defence of one player. I like Ben Arfa a hell of a lot, he can be an absolute genius and has the natural ability far beyond a player we could (normally) realistically attract but it's also not difficult to see why he would cause a manager concern at times. It is a genuine shame that the issue is stopping some from enjoying a fantastic season. You can guarantee the same group will moan before every game that he won't start, moan if he doesn't start (usually with a comment like "well that's cost us the game!") or if he does start moan that others on the pitch didn't give him enough chances to show what he can do. He has the attention Barton could only dream of He has done brilliantly in the limited chances he has been given but there have also been clear signs why a manager who has based our eye opening success this season on team work has had to hold him back at times. I don't understand these obvious concerns a manager in Pardew's position would have about playing Ben Arfa. Care to enlighten me? As brilliant as he is he gives the ball away a fair bit when we seem to be in control and have players pushing forward, leaving us exposed to a counter attack. We have got lucky a few times. Personally I would have the lad in the side every week but it's not hard to see why he would give a manager something to think about. He does, but contrary to what some people on here would have you believe, he also works very hard to get it back. I remember at least two incidents this season where this happened and we scored from him winning back possession, lastly this past weekend our first goal vs Blackburn. As for the other players moving forward, this is a matter of tactics. When a player goes on a run the striker(s) and wingers should move forward, along with maybe one of the central midfielders, not both. If everybody pushes forward and we are caught out on the break that is not so much a problem with the person losing the ball (which is always a possibility), but also how the other players react to it. Another thing is we lose a lot of possession in other ways, be it by long punts that bounce off our forwards or go straight to the opposition or by wayward passes from the back or midfield. I would argue we lose the ball a lot more in these ways than we do by Ben Arfa losing it when he's trying to make something happen in the opposition half. The problem is, it's very noticeable when it happens when you're on the edge of your seat waiting for something exciting to happen, because he is that type of player, whereas when it's Krul or the defence kicking it long you almost expect us to lose the ball most of the time and it's a pleasant surprise if one of the strikers actually manages to make it stick. Percentage wise I don't think Ben Arfa loses more possession than many other players, but it gets noticed a lot more. The flip side is that whenever he does not lose the ball, he is much more likely to make something positive happen. For that reason it is imperative that we stick with him. That's actually very, very spot-on. I can't tell you how many times I've hung my head in frustration as we lose the ball each time we lump it upfield expecting Ameobi to act like a venus flytrap, or Best to go on his mazy left-wing runs which probably have more in common with Ed Milliband's election campaigns than utilizing the actual left wing of a football pitch. In fact, we lose the ball 95% more times hoofing it up field than via Ben Arfa trying to get past players. You're right, he just gets noticed a lot more when he does. How many times does Tiote give it away? Tonnes as well, and he's in a much more vulnerable position. Losing the ball in midfield areas is more dangerous than losing it via long balls, which the entire team is behind. This is why poor teams simply bypass the area if they don't have players of adequate ability. Which is what we are also doing a lot even though we have that quality in midfield, not least the man in my avatar. Anyway, as I have argued above, Ben Arfa doesn't lose the ball significantly MORE than our other midfield and attacking players, just in other ways. There needs to be a realisation that to get the best of our most talented player(s) we need to play to their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses, which in this case means the deepest sitting central midfielder stays back as Ben Arfa tries to force the matter in the opposition half. Similarly, we wouldn't ask Tiote to bring the ball forward and pick out a killer pass, because his strength is the defensive side of the game as opposed to the offensive side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 he'd find himself and the team would be far more effective if he started doing a bit of pass-and-move, constantly on the prowl making space. get him doing one-touch exercises over and over again instead of taking players on. the ability to dribble and beat a man is great but ideally it's more dangerous if it happens at the end of the move rather than at the start. not only because you're in a far more dangerous position but it's less risky if you lose it. Exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliassenfredrik Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Inconsistency, petulance, a tendency to fade out of games, and a complete lack of defensive capability? He is a fantastic, but innately flawed player. There is a reason why he is beloved. There are also reason for his past two clubs willingly relinquished his services. The reason his last club willingly relinquished his services was because he arrived here on his own accord, they had little or no choice. Also, a player moving clubs doesn’t highlight a flaw, a club has to want a player as much or more than a club wanting to get rid before a move can take place. Deschamps wanted to sell him before he wanted to leave. He tried to change his mind after the top goalscorer left, but HBA was really not in his plans. They had been previous altercations between the two of them in training as well. We're hardly playing consistantly crap football ffs Pardew makes do with what he has available. We've scored some lovely goals this season Exactly, it's getting silly now and a lot seems to be based solely on the defence of one player. I like Ben Arfa a hell of a lot, he can be an absolute genius and has the natural ability far beyond a player we could (normally) realistically attract but it's also not difficult to see why he would cause a manager concern at times. It is a genuine shame that the issue is stopping some from enjoying a fantastic season. You can guarantee the same group will moan before every game that he won't start, moan if he doesn't start (usually with a comment like "well that's cost us the game!") or if he does start moan that others on the pitch didn't give him enough chances to show what he can do. He has the attention Barton could only dream of He has done brilliantly in the limited chances he has been given but there have also been clear signs why a manager who has based our eye opening success this season on team work has had to hold him back at times. I don't understand these obvious concerns a manager in Pardew's position would have about playing Ben Arfa. Care to enlighten me? Inconsistency, petulance, a tendency to fade out of games, and a complete lack of defensive capability? He is a fantastic, but innately flawed player. There is a reason why he is beloved. There are also reason for his past two clubs willingly relinquished his services. Inconsistency can hardly be a concern as you need a certain amount of games in your best position to be judged upon that. Defensive capability is irrelevant in the same way attacking capability is irrelevant for Steven Taylor. Petulance? Meh, reckon this is based on Lyon stories. What is his best position? He has been given a plethora of opportunities on the wing in France (at the top clubs in a supposedly inferior league), and has not ever given consistent product or effort. Attacking ability is not irrelevant for Steve Taylor. The ability to contribute in an offensive manner is often what separates top defenders from average ones. It is the same with attackers. If Ben Arfa provided more in terms of tracking back and help to his fullback, there would not be a need to compensate for him being in the side, and managers would have no issue starting him. This is not the case. I like the player a lot, but he is not perfect. He should also adapt instead of just managers adopting to him. His best position is the trequartista role behind two strikers, wandering to the left, maybe swapping positions for periods with the left winger. In other words a free role. This works quite fine with movement from other players. And with Ba and Cisse up front you'd be a fool not to exploit this. I disagree with the attacking/defending responsibilities with regards to certain players and roles. For instance, Steven Taylor should sit deep and do what he does best, whilst Colo could storm forward because of his abilities to do so. And as long as Ben Arfa shows and tries to retain the ball after loosing it, you can't really ask for more. I mean, seriously. You can't possibly expect Ben Arfa to contribute defensively like Tiote does? I may misunderstand, but that's what I'm getting from most on here. He should adapt if that is what's asked of him, but you can't strip his qualities from him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 defensive work is not a particular problem for ben arfa - the people who suggest this aren't watching close enough, he tracks back, competes for tackles and so on. we've had plenty of wingers who did far less. even looking at hoilett at blackburn who has been discussed, he is in the game far less than HBA. he has drifted out of the past couple of matches, which imo is the most disappointing aspect of his play, but again, it's not usually a particular problem for ben arfa- he tends to be involved as much in the middle third of the pitch as in the final third, unlike someone like Robert for instance who was very much a final third player. if anything he can find himself dropping near to the centre-halves in order to get on the ball. the issue with ben arfa isn't the two above issues at all. his weakness is that he's always trying to do too much on the ball. it's a team game, and often the best pass is the simplest. you can criticise others for not being spatially aware or making the right sorts of runs, which is true to an extent (particularly shola and best), but it takes two to tango. ben arfa has to look for the right passes and in turn he has to make the right sorts of runs. i find he's too static just waiting for the ball and when he gets it he tries to play the game on his own, with others not having the rapport to make runs to get the best out of HBA's possession (apart from Ba at times). he'd find himself and the team would be far more effective if he started doing a bit of pass-and-move, constantly on the prowl making space. get him doing one-touch exercises over and over again instead of taking players on. the ability to dribble and beat a man is great but ideally it's more dangerous if it happens at the end of the move rather than at the start. not only because you're in a far more dangerous position but it's less risky if you lose it. Agree with all of that. I think he's capable of playing a more simple game without trying to take the entire opposition team on in every move, but as you say, this requires the other attacking players to move intelligently around him. It's no coincidence he's looked poor the last match and a half, considering what he's had to work with up front. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 defensive work is not a particular problem for ben arfa - the people who suggest this aren't watching close enough, he tracks back, competes for tackles and so on. we've had plenty of wingers who did far less. even looking at hoilett at blackburn who has been discussed, he is in the game far less than HBA. he has drifted out of the past couple of matches, which imo is the most disappointing aspect of his play, but again, it's not usually a particular problem for ben arfa- he tends to be involved as much in the middle third of the pitch as in the final third, unlike someone like Robert for instance who was very much a final third player. if anything he can find himself dropping near to the centre-halves in order to get on the ball. the issue with ben arfa isn't the two above issues at all. his weakness is that he's always trying to do too much on the ball. it's a team game, and often the best pass is the simplest. you can criticise others for not being spatially aware or making the right sorts of runs, which is true to an extent (particularly shola and best), but it takes two to tango. ben arfa has to look for the right passes and in turn he has to make the right sorts of runs. i find he's too static just waiting for the ball and when he gets it he tries to play the game on his own, with others not having the rapport to make runs to get the best out of HBA's possession (apart from Ba at times). he'd find himself and the team would be far more effective if he started doing a bit of pass-and-move, constantly on the prowl making space. get him doing one-touch exercises over and over again instead of taking players on. the ability to dribble and beat a man is great but ideally it's more dangerous if it happens at the end of the move rather than at the start. not only because you're in a far more dangerous position but it's less risky if you lose it. What would have happened if Ben Arfa had passed to Shola or Best instead of shooting against Blackburn in the FA Cup? I can live with him trying too much because when it comes off it's brilliant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 There are also reason for his past two clubs willingly relinquished his services. Hmm. He had to force his move twice with his past two clubs, which wanted to keep him. With Lyon, he went to the tribunal of sport to force his move to Marseille and he won the judgement against the powerfull Aulas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Does 'He had to force his move twice' not ring alarm bells to you? I know the feeling on here was pretty much 'fuck it, we'll enjoy it while it lasts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Does 'He had to force his move twice' not ring alarm bells to you? I know the feeling on here was pretty much 'f*** it, we'll enjoy it while it lasts. He was a young and rebel die hard. He said he has changed (But that's was not the subject. Dem BABA said his last two clubs relinquished his services. It's not true.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Does 'He had to force his move twice' not ring alarm bells to you? I know the feeling on here was pretty much 'f*** it, we'll enjoy it while it lasts. Well, in the past, his attitude did really stink. But these days, the lad himself has said he feels more mature and is more reflective. He now understands that there will be times when things won't go his way and he knows that if he keeps working hard, he'll get a chance. When he got injured from that horrific leg break and spent almost a year on the sidelines, it really gave him time to think about how he's conducted himself in the past and I think he realises that he should conduct himself in a different manner now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Worrying about losing posession! Want to get half the side to stop hoofing it then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Does 'He had to force his move twice' not ring alarm bells to you? I know the feeling on here was pretty much 'f*** it, we'll enjoy it while it lasts. He was a young and rebel die hard. He said he has changed (But that's was not the subject. Dem BABA said his last two clubs relinquished his services. It's not true.) Pardew early days wanted to float it over the mf to Obertans as quick as poss who was to run down and hit loads of well directed crosses at two big lads. Pards plan: Tell everyone slyly that Hatem was a lazy cunt. Result: a load of donkeys believed him for months till they realised Obertans was actually shit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Does 'He had to force his move twice' not ring alarm bells to you? I know the feeling on here was pretty much 'f*** it, we'll enjoy it while it lasts. He was a young and rebel die hard. He said he has changed (But that's was not the subject. Dem BABA said his last two clubs relinquished his services. It's not true.) Pardew early days wanted to float it over the mf to Obertans as quick as poss who was to run down and hit loads of well directed crosses at two big lads. Pards plan: Tell everyone slyly that Hatem was a lazy c***. Result: a load of donkeys believed him for months till they realised Obertans was actually s***. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Does 'He had to force his move twice' not ring alarm bells to you? I know the feeling on here was pretty much 'f*** it, we'll enjoy it while it lasts. He was a young and rebel die hard. He said he has changed (But that's was not the subject. Dem BABA said his last two clubs relinquished his services. It's not true.) Pardew early days wanted to float it over the mf to Obertans as quick as poss who was to run down and hit loads of well directed crosses at two big lads. Pards plan: Tell everyone slyly that Hatem was a lazy c***. Result: a load of donkeys believed him for months till they realised Obertans was actually s***. ...which meant we won a bunch of games and were in 5th place at the end of January, defying everyone's expectations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Does 'He had to force his move twice' not ring alarm bells to you? I know the feeling on here was pretty much 'f*** it, we'll enjoy it while it lasts. He was a young and rebel die hard. He said he has changed (But that's was not the subject. Dem BABA said his last two clubs relinquished his services. It's not true.) Pardew early days wanted to float it over the mf to Obertans as quick as poss who was to run down and hit loads of well directed crosses at two big lads. Pards plan: Tell everyone slyly that Hatem was a lazy c***. Result: a load of donkeys believed him for months till they realised Obertans was actually s***. ...which meant we won a bunch of games and were in 5th place at the end of January, defying everyone's expectations. Happy with the wins. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Ben Arfa is a must in the side, I could understand if we had a Nobby Solano in the squad BUT the alternatives at this moment are poor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Ben Arfa is a must in the side, I could understand if we had a Nobby Solano in the squad BUT the alternatives at this moment are poor especially now with the return of our forwards to aim for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberto2005 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I don't think he'll start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I don't think he'll start. nor do I. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliassenfredrik Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 If we're going by that logic, Best and Ameobi certainly wont start, so at least we'll have some quality up front. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 If we're going by that logic, Best and Ameobi certainly wont start, so at least we'll have some quality up front. which logic is this ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberto2005 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 If we're going by that logic, Best and Ameobi certainly wont start, so at least we'll have some quality up front. which logic is this ? Poor alternatives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Nobody is starting!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Nobody is starting!! never met him or nowt but could picture him as a mascot for the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 If we're going by that logic, Best and Ameobi certainly wont start, so at least we'll have some quality up front. which logic is this ? Logic of the universe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 If we're going by that logic, Best and Ameobi certainly wont start, so at least we'll have some quality up front. which logic is this ? Logic of the universe. your universe or mine ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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