ponsaelius Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 nothing wrong constantly demanding that Ben Arfa tracks back but it's a question of emphasis imo. it's one thing to demand it, another thing to expend so many valuable contact hours on it. i'd rather we took some more time learning how to play possession football along with trying to get the players more comfortable working up fluid attacking moves. by default that means a bit less time obsessing about and working on things like 'tracking back'. unfortunately we appear to have a manager who, if carver is right, doesn't actually do ANY attack-based coaching. Yes, this basically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Because any manager/player worth their salt at this level will see a gaping space to exploit and will do so. Like we have when Ben Arfa has 3 players around him or like we regularly did when Jonas was doubled up on or do other team have more players on the pitch than we do? Like it or not, Ben Arfa is our player most likely to do something from the half way line and we should take advantage of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 get your rooks into play when that type of thing happens. I rarely lose at Chess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 they'd have been better if they had though, maybe even regulars for their national sides and played for title winning sides. You don't know that, they could just have easily become less effective. i'm just thinking of better more effective players who worked that way and fwiw it's exactly what ben arfa done at man citeh. no-one as far as i'm awars is asking him to double up with simpson (not that he should be wide right) every time they get the ball out that side but the best teams defend through the whole XI, why shouldn't we ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 It's gone beyond ridiculous. Some are scrutinising every single word Pardew comes out with and desperately searching through for a negative to craft a stick to beat the man with. "Oh, look, Pardew praised his workrate again, the fucking cunt." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 True. Even positives are being spun into terrible negatives. Ridiculous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 get your rooks into play when that type of thing happens. I rarely lose at Chess. i do, always looking for the quick kill. love the game but lack the patience to play it well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Because any manager/player worth their salt at this level will see a gaping space to exploit and will do so. Like we have when Ben Arfa has 3 players around him or like we regularly did when Jonas was doubled up on or do other team have more players on the pitch than we do? Like it or not, Ben Arfa is our player most likely to do something from the half way line and we should take advantage of that. I've never disputed HBA is better going forward. He's my favourite player and our most talented since Robert. Probably better. I still expect him to follow his man though, which he did on Monday and still looked good going forward. The two aren't exclusive of each other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ironic that you pick Robert's worst 5 months during his 4 year stint here to use as an example. If you want real irony I suggest you look to see who the manager at the time was and remember what he was preaching at the time about wingers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Honestly, I insist on the tactical value of leaving players deployed in front of the ball, not behind. If Enrique/Kolarov/Stephen Ward runs with the ball he's giving his back to one of his opposition's best players. One misplaced pass and he's out of position. Gaps do work both ways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Because any manager/player worth their salt at this level will see a gaping space to exploit and will do so. Like we have when Ben Arfa has 3 players around him or like we regularly did when Jonas was doubled up on or do other team have more players on the pitch than we do? Like it or not, Ben Arfa is our player most likely to do something from the half way line and we should take advantage of that. I've never disputed HBA is better going forward. He's my favourite player and our most talented since Robert. Probably better. I still expect him to follow his man though, which he did on Monday and still looked good going forward. The two aren't exclusive of each other. Pushing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Honestly, I insist on the tactical value of leaving players deployed in front of the ball, not behind. If Enrique/Kolarov/Stephen Ward runs with the ball he's giving his back to one of his opposition's best players. One misplaced pass and he's out of position. Gaps do work both ways. scroll back and read my treatise on players reading the game and covering each other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Robert probably played in front of Babayaro about 5 times. Don't try that s*** with me, bud. I'll have to give you that one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Honestly, I insist on the tactical value of leaving players deployed in front of the ball, not behind. If Enrique/Kolarov/Stephen Ward runs with the ball he's giving his back to one of his opposition's best players. One misplaced pass and he's out of position. Gaps do work both ways. scroll back and read my treatise on players reading the game and covering each other. Yes, I read it. Doesn't change my opinion. Incidentally, I dispute the fact that most wingers at this level are capable of being an effective presence in both areas. Bale and Valencia, those cited, are athletic wonders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Because any manager/player worth their salt at this level will see a gaping space to exploit and will do so. Like we have when Ben Arfa has 3 players around him or like we regularly did when Jonas was doubled up on or do other team have more players on the pitch than we do? Like it or not, Ben Arfa is our player most likely to do something from the half way line and we should take advantage of that. I've never disputed HBA is better going forward. He's my favourite player and our most talented since Robert. Probably better. I still expect him to follow his man though, which he did on Monday and still looked good going forward. The two aren't exclusive of each other. Pushing it. He's easily got more natural ability on the ball than Robert, it's just a case of seeing if he can win us matches as often as Robert did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 aren't they supposed to read off each other and get into the best positions for the team, ie some will look to get into attacking positions to receive the ball, some will cover, some will try and find positions to do both. no reason why one individual player should always look to be doing one or the other, the games fluid and as such they have to constantly be reading to make the best choices. a perfect example is getting caught out in the left back position when santon goes forward, one from tiote, cabaye, joans ought to be looking to cover that position, not drop into it, but get into a position where they can be effective (receive the ball, take a man away,) yet none of tiote,cabaye or jonas ever do it leaving it to colo to get pulled over and leaving us open in the centre. it's not tactics, at their ages it can't be taught, it's basic footballing sense. I'm not sure our game is fluid. football is fluid, teams are to varying degrees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ironic that you pick Robert's worst 5 months during his 4 year stint here to use as an example. If you want real irony I suggest you look to see who the manager at the time was and remember what he was preaching at the time about wingers. “In the first half he took a corner, a poor corner, which hit the first defender, and it took him 17 minutes to get back to the halfway line.” - Sir Bobby Robson praising Laurent Robert after an away UEFA Cup tie against Real Mallorca for concentrating solely on attacking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Honestly, I insist on the tactical value of leaving players deployed in front of the ball, not behind. If Enrique/Kolarov/Stephen Ward runs with the ball he's giving his back to one of his opposition's best players. One misplaced pass and he's out of position. Gaps do work both ways. scroll back and read my treatise on players reading the game and covering each other. Yes, I read it. Doesn't change my opinion. Incidentally, I dispute the fact that most wingers at this level are capable of being an effective presence in both areas. Bale and Valencia, those cited, are athletic wonders. what are you disputing ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Honestly, I insist on the tactical value of leaving players deployed in front of the ball, not behind. If Enrique/Kolarov/Stephen Ward runs with the ball he's giving his back to one of his opposition's best players. One misplaced pass and he's out of position. Gaps do work both ways. scroll back and read my treatise on players reading the game and covering each other. Yes, I read it. Doesn't change my opinion. Incidentally, I dispute the fact that most wingers at this level are capable of being an effective presence in both areas. Bale and Valencia, those cited, are athletic wonders. what are you disputing ? The idea that asking a winger to always track back doesn't hurt his attacking game. Very few players have the stamina to be effective on both sides of the pitch. Probably I'm too used to La Liga, where 442 is rarer and I see plenty of wingers who stay up to offer counterattacking options and stretching their backline. Again, I'm not saying that he doesn't have to work for the team, every player has to, just that he should stay more in front of the ball than behind it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 i'm just thinking of better more effective players who worked that way and fwiw it's exactly what ben arfa done at man citeh. no-one as far as i'm awars is asking him to double up with simpson (not that he should be wide right) every time they get the ball out that side but the best teams defend through the whole XI, why shouldn't we ? Ben Arfa has tracked back whenever he's played, he's being asked to do more. I'm not suggesting that he should never track back. I would just prefer him to be employed forward as much as possible and I don't want him standing on the edge of the box, like he was when he played a ball to Simpson and then picked it back up from him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 “In the first half he took a corner, a poor corner, which hit the first defender, and it took him 17 minutes to get back to the halfway line.” - Sir Bobby Robson praising Laurent Robert after an away UEFA Cup tie against Real Mallorca for concentrating solely on attacking. Excellent, so Sir Bobby once had a go at Robert for not tracking back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Once. Read his book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Honestly, I insist on the tactical value of leaving players deployed in front of the ball, not behind. If Enrique/Kolarov/Stephen Ward runs with the ball he's giving his back to one of his opposition's best players. One misplaced pass and he's out of position. Gaps do work both ways. scroll back and read my treatise on players reading the game and covering each other. Yes, I read it. Doesn't change my opinion. Incidentally, I dispute the fact that most wingers at this level are capable of being an effective presence in both areas. Bale and Valencia, those cited, are athletic wonders. what are you disputing ? The idea that asking a winger to always track back doesn't hurt his attacking game. Very few players have the stamina to be effective on both sides of the pitch. Again, I'm not saying that he doesn't have to work for the team, every player has to, just that he should stay more in front of the ball than behind it. thats what i've been spelling out, he can work for the team when out of possession without being a jonas style auxilliary full back. i'd much rather he done his defensive work up the pitch so to speak (defrensive work as in when we dont have the ball, got to spell this out as far too many thick gits thenk as soon as you mention'defensive' means back 4 and 20yds from our goal, for me it's whenever we dont hasve possession) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Once. Read his book. I've read a few of his books, which one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 This one: Don't have my copy up here with me, but I think he said something like this: "I cornered Laurent more than any other player I've worked with; in the dressing room, on the training ground and in the boardroom twice. We'd ask him again and again, 'do you understand your defensive responsibilities?'" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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