Papiss Cissé

[Unbelievable]

Expect him to put away 3 or 4 out of 5 or 6 chances?

 

For comparison, Messi's chance conversion is about 30%.

 

How about Ba's?

[themanupstairs]

Playing out wide doesn't really excuse the kind of chances he's been missing though, like the one against City and the penalty he tried kicking into town.

 

I think it's got to be difficult when he's getting so few chances though, the fact that you're going all the way back to a penalty in September to think of chances he's missing is evidence of that. There's got to be a tendency to snatch at chances when your job is to score goals but you only get one half chance every three games.

 

 

Conversely, he did draw out a top class save from Hart in the first few minutes, and was a hair away from scoring at Fulham (pulled up for offside, replays showed he really wasn't). Apart from the chances that have been mentioned in the last couple of posts, has he really had any other real opportunities to score that he has squandered?

 

5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games is damning evidence of our complete lack of creativity for one of the most lethal finishers in the top division.

 

Even if your numbers were right, wouldn't you expect "one of the most lethal finishers in the top division" to put away 3 or maybe 4 out of those 5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games? That's before even going into the fact that Papiss Cisse is an integral part of that forward line that has, as you say a "complete lack of creativity". As I said, it's not just his finishing that's let him (and us) down, it's also his lack of intelligent movement.

 

Quite frankly, a lot of you are making excuses for him which wouldn't have been necessary if he had played anywhere near at the level we know from last season he's capable of.

 

Eh? So you're not factoring in his self confidence issues? Do you not think these make a difference to a center forward when he's faced with the first half chance he's had in 3 games let's say?

 

Look at it this way. Say Cisse played for Man Utd., with their current lineup. How many more chances per game would he be getting (on average), than he is getting at the moment? Do you think he would still be missing those chances, and with 2 goals to his name 4 and a half months into the season?

 

The fact that he can't get into any sort of rhythm up front because of all the chopping up, add to that an obviously massive bout of self-doubt, and our lack of creative variety in the final third, are the causes of his dry spell. He is however, responsible to work even harder, mentally especially, to adjust his game to the new role he finds himself in. He has shown a little more in the last couple of games, so maybe he is doing just that.

[Ronaldo]

A G E N D A .

[Unbelievable]

Playing out wide doesn't really excuse the kind of chances he's been missing though, like the one against City and the penalty he tried kicking into town.

 

I think it's got to be difficult when he's getting so few chances though, the fact that you're going all the way back to a penalty in September to think of chances he's missing is evidence of that. There's got to be a tendency to snatch at chances when your job is to score goals but you only get one half chance every three games.

 

 

Conversely, he did draw out a top class save from Hart in the first few minutes, and was a hair away from scoring at Fulham (pulled up for offside, replays showed he really wasn't). Apart from the chances that have been mentioned in the last couple of posts, has he really had any other real opportunities to score that he has squandered?

 

5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games is damning evidence of our complete lack of creativity for one of the most lethal finishers in the top division.

 

Even if your numbers were right, wouldn't you expect "one of the most lethal finishers in the top division" to put away 3 or maybe 4 out of those 5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games? That's before even going into the fact that Papiss Cisse is an integral part of that forward line that has, as you say a "complete lack of creativity". As I said, it's not just his finishing that's let him (and us) down, it's also his lack of intelligent movement.

 

Quite frankly, a lot of you are making excuses for him which wouldn't have been necessary if he had played anywhere near at the level we know from last season he's capable of.

 

Eh? So you're not factoring in his self confidence issues? Do you not think these make a difference to a center forward when he's faced with the first half chance he's had in 3 games let's say?

 

Look at it this way. Say Cisse played for Man Utd., with their current lineup. How many more chances per game would he be getting (on average), than he is getting at the moment? Do you think he would still be missing those chances, and with 2 goals to his name 4 and a half months into the season?

 

The fact that he can't get into any sort of rhythm up front because of all the chopping up, add to that an obviously massive bout of self-doubt, and our lack of creative variety in the final third, are the causes of his dry spell. He is however, responsible to work even harder, mentally especially, to adjust his game to the new role he finds himself in. He has shown a little more in the last couple of games, so maybe he is doing just that.

 

 

How does self confidence explain his piss poor start of the season after he was on fire in his first half season in a new league a few months earlier?

 

Also, all the excuses you make (lack of creativity, lack of chances created, lack of continuity in the team) don't detract from the fact Ba got 10 times as many goals when they were paired at the start of the season.

 

Is Papiss Cisse himself beyond criticism? Let me ask you this question: has he lived up to expectations these past couple of months?

[Mick]

 

 

How does self confidence explain his p*ss poor start of the season after he was on fire in his first half season in a new league a few months earlier?

 

Also, all the excuses you make (lack of creativity, lack of chances created, lack of continuity in the team) don't detract from the fact Ba got 10 times as many goals when they were paired at the start of the season.

 

Is Papiss Cisse himself beyond criticism? Let me ask you this question: has he lived up to expectations these past couple of months?

 

Cisse is feeding off scraps, you're over playing the chances he's getting.

[Unbelievable]

A G E N D A .

 

Indeed. You can't call a spade a spade on here. Well, here's one: many of our players, especially our better ones, and I include Cisse in that (as well as Colo and Tiote for example), have not played anywhere close to their ability. They are as much, if not more to blame for our current plight as the default scapegoats this forum loves to slate, such as Simpson, Williamson and more recently Ba and Pardew.

[Rich]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

[Unbelievable]

 

 

How does self confidence explain his p*ss poor start of the season after he was on fire in his first half season in a new league a few months earlier?

 

Also, all the excuses you make (lack of creativity, lack of chances created, lack of continuity in the team) don't detract from the fact Ba got 10 times as many goals when they were paired at the start of the season.

 

Is Papiss Cisse himself beyond criticism? Let me ask you this question: has he lived up to expectations these past couple of months?

 

Cisse is feeding off scraps, you're over playing the chances he's getting.

 

Whereas last season we created 20 golden edged chances a match for him? Or whereas we're magically creating shit loads for Demba Ba?

[Hanshithispantz]

Call a spade a spade? So what are you saying here, that Cisse is actually shite?

 

I don't think anyone at all will argue that Cisse hasn't been playing well.

[themanupstairs]

Playing out wide doesn't really excuse the kind of chances he's been missing though, like the one against City and the penalty he tried kicking into town.

 

I think it's got to be difficult when he's getting so few chances though, the fact that you're going all the way back to a penalty in September to think of chances he's missing is evidence of that. There's got to be a tendency to snatch at chances when your job is to score goals but you only get one half chance every three games.

 

 

Conversely, he did draw out a top class save from Hart in the first few minutes, and was a hair away from scoring at Fulham (pulled up for offside, replays showed he really wasn't). Apart from the chances that have been mentioned in the last couple of posts, has he really had any other real opportunities to score that he has squandered?

 

5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games is damning evidence of our complete lack of creativity for one of the most lethal finishers in the top division.

 

Even if your numbers were right, wouldn't you expect "one of the most lethal finishers in the top division" to put away 3 or maybe 4 out of those 5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games? That's before even going into the fact that Papiss Cisse is an integral part of that forward line that has, as you say a "complete lack of creativity". As I said, it's not just his finishing that's let him (and us) down, it's also his lack of intelligent movement.

 

Quite frankly, a lot of you are making excuses for him which wouldn't have been necessary if he had played anywhere near at the level we know from last season he's capable of.

 

Eh? So you're not factoring in his self confidence issues? Do you not think these make a difference to a center forward when he's faced with the first half chance he's had in 3 games let's say?

 

Look at it this way. Say Cisse played for Man Utd., with their current lineup. How many more chances per game would he be getting (on average), than he is getting at the moment? Do you think he would still be missing those chances, and with 2 goals to his name 4 and a half months into the season?

 

The fact that he can't get into any sort of rhythm up front because of all the chopping up, add to that an obviously massive bout of self-doubt, and our lack of creative variety in the final third, are the causes of his dry spell. He is however, responsible to work even harder, mentally especially, to adjust his game to the new role he finds himself in. He has shown a little more in the last couple of games, so maybe he is doing just that.

 

 

How does self confidence explain his p*ss poor start of the season after he was on fire in his first half season in a new league a few months earlier?

 

Also, all the excuses you make (lack of creativity, lack of chances created, lack of continuity in the team) don't detract from the fact Ba got 10 times as many goals when they were paired at the start of the season.

 

Is Papiss Cisse himself beyond criticism? Let me ask you this question: has he lived up to expectations these past couple of months?

 

Where did I say criticism is off-limits? I criticized him myself for not working hard enough to adjust to his new role for the benefit of the team. But that doesn't mean he is correctly utilized by the manager! We paid 9 million for a pure goal scorer, and we're playing him on the periphery of the areas where he is most dangerous.

 

What are you exactly asking for Cisse to do? "Score goals"? Are you saying that maybe his heart's not in it? If it's not a confidence issue or a team issue, what exactly is your reasoning behind his poor form, as I don't understand it.

[Mick]

A G E N D A .

 

Indeed. You can't call a spade a spade on here. Well, here's one: many of our players, especially our better ones, and I include Cisse in that (as well as Colo and Tiote for example), have not played anywhere close to their ability. They are as much, if not more to blame for our current plight as the default scapegoats this forum loves to slate, such as Simpson, Williamson and more recently Ba and Pardew.

 

Why do you think many of our players haven't played "anywhere close to their ability"?

[Mick]

 

 

Whereas last season we created 20 golden edged chances a match for him? Or whereas we're magically creating s*** loads for Demba Ba?

 

This season he's feeing off scraps, that has nothing to do with last season or how many chances Ba is or isn't getting.

[Unbelievable]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

[Rich]

Call a spade a spade? So what are you saying here, that Cisse is actually shite?

 

I don't think anyone at all will argue that Cisse hasn't been playing well.

 

This is the key part for me. It's undeniable that he hasn't been quite right since the season began, but I think it's also nigh-on impossible to argue against the fact that he's been severely hamstrung by our formation and style.

 

People are rightly frustrated because of that and are "making excuses" for a player who showed himself to have the capability to be a truly world-class finisher last season. This player now finds himself playing right wing, a position in which he has never played before.

 

As I said earlier, to me this is basically the equivalent of moving Andy Cole to the right wing during one of his barren runs. It's fucking lunacy. Usually when you have a striker of genuine class who hasn't "lost it" for any reason other than confidence and form (i.e. no severe injury causing a loss of ability) you persevere until they find their feet again.

 

This is, of course, totally negating the wider (but extremely relevant) issue of us also abandoning the 4-3-3 setup that so many of us enjoyed last season.

[Mick]

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

You do realise that 6 adds up to one every 3 games, don't you?

[Jack Flash]

A G E N D A .

 

Indeed. You can't call a spade a spade on here. Well, here's one: many of our players, especially our better ones, and I include Cisse in that (as well as Colo and Tiote for example), have not played anywhere close to their ability. They are as much, if not more to blame for our current plight as the default scapegoats this forum loves to slate, such as Simpson, Williamson and more recently Ba and Pardew.

 

Why do you think many of our players haven't played "anywhere close to their ability"?

 

Can anyone list the excuses he's used so far this season:

 

 

1: Europe

2: Injuries

3: Youth players

4: Spies

5: Fans

6: Not running fast enough

7: Players heads turned

8: Agents

9: Lack of investment

10: Luck

11: Senegal

12: The Pitch

13: lack of Magic

14: Notting Hill Carnival 

 

I'll add them as we go along 

[Rich]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner.

 

Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point.

[Dave]

A G E N D A .

 

Indeed. You can't call a spade a spade on here. Well, here's one: many of our players, especially our better ones, and I include Cisse in that (as well as Colo and Tiote for example), have not played anywhere close to their ability. They are as much, if not more to blame for our current plight as the default scapegoats this forum loves to slate, such as Simpson, Williamson and more recently Ba and Pardew.

 

Why do you think many of our players haven't played "anywhere close to their ability"?

 

Can anyone list the excuses he's used so far this season:

 

 

1: Europe

2: Injuries

3: Youth players

4: Spies

5: Fans

6: Not running fast enough

7: Players heads turned

8: Agents

9: Lack of investment

10: Luck

11: Senegal

12: The Pitch

13: lack of Magic

14: Notting Hill Carnival 

 

I'll add them as we go along 

 

[Unbelievable]

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

You do realise that 6 adds up to one every 3 games, don't you?

 

Have you noticed none of these other strikers who are scoring goals get 3 chances per game laid on a plate for them? Did you miss the fact his chance conversion percentage last season was 4 times higher than this season?

[Wullie]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner.

 

Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point.

 

Also supports my point that he's feeding off scraps though. 6 chances in, what, 15, 16 games? No wonder he's snatching at them.

[Beren]

"Senegal" and "Spies"

[Rich]

Wullie.

 

Definitely does, I should have acknowledged that it works both ways. We don't need the stats to tell us that he's been off-colour since day one but that he has hardly been getting any chances anyway, we've all seen enough this season to know that's the case. Just thought I'd chuck them in so people weren't idly speculating with random numbers as to how many chances he has actually been getting.

 

He's definitely snatching and his decision making has been suspect all season, though I can't help but agree that he hasn't been helped by the way he has been utilised and by the way the team has been playing the game.

[Unbelievable]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner.

 

Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point.

 

 

So erm, would it be correct to also conclude from those stats that besides scoring 6 "sitters" this season Demba Ba has also scored 5 Premiership goals that weren't clear cut chances created for him as opposed to Cisse's 1 (being extremely generous with that considering he knew nothing about it)?

 

And people give me stick for saying Papiss' finishing and movement have been below par and maybe the player himself is partly to blame for this..?

[Hanshithispantz]

It isn't Cisse's fault that Ba has performed well above pretty much ever other striker in the league like

 

 

[Mick]

 

 

Have you noticed none of these other strikers who are scoring goals get 3 chances per game laid on a plate for them? Did you miss the fact his chance conversion percentage last season was 4 times higher than this season?

 

Did you notice that last season he was playing in a different system?