Papiss Cissé

[Jack Flash]

A G E N D A .

 

Indeed. You can't call a spade a spade on here. Well, here's one: many of our players, especially our better ones, and I include Cisse in that (as well as Colo and Tiote for example), have not played anywhere close to their ability. They are as much, if not more to blame for our current plight as the default scapegoats this forum loves to slate, such as Simpson, Williamson and more recently Ba and Pardew.

 

Why do you think many of our players haven't played "anywhere close to their ability"?

 

Can anyone list the excuses he's used so far this season:

 

 

1: Europe

2: Injuries

3: Youth players

4: Spies

5: Fans

6: Not running fast enough

7: Players heads turned

8: Agents

9: Lack of investment

10: Luck

11: Senegal

12: The Pitch

13: lack of Magic

14: Notting Hill Carnival 

 

I'll add them as we go along 

[Rich]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner.

 

Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point.

[Dave]

A G E N D A .

 

Indeed. You can't call a spade a spade on here. Well, here's one: many of our players, especially our better ones, and I include Cisse in that (as well as Colo and Tiote for example), have not played anywhere close to their ability. They are as much, if not more to blame for our current plight as the default scapegoats this forum loves to slate, such as Simpson, Williamson and more recently Ba and Pardew.

 

Why do you think many of our players haven't played "anywhere close to their ability"?

 

Can anyone list the excuses he's used so far this season:

 

 

1: Europe

2: Injuries

3: Youth players

4: Spies

5: Fans

6: Not running fast enough

7: Players heads turned

8: Agents

9: Lack of investment

10: Luck

11: Senegal

12: The Pitch

13: lack of Magic

14: Notting Hill Carnival 

 

I'll add them as we go along 

 

[Unbelievable]

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

You do realise that 6 adds up to one every 3 games, don't you?

 

Have you noticed none of these other strikers who are scoring goals get 3 chances per game laid on a plate for them? Did you miss the fact his chance conversion percentage last season was 4 times higher than this season?

[Wullie]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner.

 

Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point.

 

Also supports my point that he's feeding off scraps though. 6 chances in, what, 15, 16 games? No wonder he's snatching at them.

[Beren]

"Senegal" and "Spies"

[Rich]

Wullie.

 

Definitely does, I should have acknowledged that it works both ways. We don't need the stats to tell us that he's been off-colour since day one but that he has hardly been getting any chances anyway, we've all seen enough this season to know that's the case. Just thought I'd chuck them in so people weren't idly speculating with random numbers as to how many chances he has actually been getting.

 

He's definitely snatching and his decision making has been suspect all season, though I can't help but agree that he hasn't been helped by the way he has been utilised and by the way the team has been playing the game.

[Unbelievable]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner.

 

Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point.

 

 

So erm, would it be correct to also conclude from those stats that besides scoring 6 "sitters" this season Demba Ba has also scored 5 Premiership goals that weren't clear cut chances created for him as opposed to Cisse's 1 (being extremely generous with that considering he knew nothing about it)?

 

And people give me stick for saying Papiss' finishing and movement have been below par and maybe the player himself is partly to blame for this..?

[Hanshithispantz]

It isn't Cisse's fault that Ba has performed well above pretty much ever other striker in the league like

 

 

[Mick]

 

 

Have you noticed none of these other strikers who are scoring goals get 3 chances per game laid on a plate for them? Did you miss the fact his chance conversion percentage last season was 4 times higher than this season?

 

Did you notice that last season he was playing in a different system?

[Unbelievable]

It isn't Cisse's fault that Ba has performed well above pretty much ever other striker in the league like

 

 

 

That's not what I'm saying. My point is it's at least partly his fault that he's not performing at anywhere near the level he did last season. 16 vs 62% chance conversion FFS.

 

[Hanshithispantz]

I don't really know what you mean by his fault though?

[Rich]

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances":

 

Clear-Cut Chance: A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range.

 

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%).

 

In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

 

I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12)  and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning.

 

Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

 

These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner.

 

Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point.

 

 

So erm, would it be correct to also conclude from those stats that besides scoring 6 "sitters" this season Demba Ba has also scored 5 Premiership goals that weren't clear cut chances created for him as opposed to Cisse's 1 (being extremely generous with that considering he knew nothing about it)?

 

And people give me stick for saying Papiss' finishing and movement have been below par and maybe the player himself is partly to blame for this..?

 

I reckon it would, aye, but again it ignores a lot of the context surrounding the debate as arguments based purely on stats tend to do.

 

I don't think anyone could really argue the last bit either, but there are undoubtedly other contributing factors that are giving him little to no chance of improving things (which is what most of us are frustrated about, I think).

[Unbelievable]

 

 

Have you noticed none of these other strikers who are scoring goals get 3 chances per game laid on a plate for them? Did you miss the fact his chance conversion percentage last season was 4 times higher than this season?

 

Did you notice that last season he was playing in a different system?

 

Did you notice we finished fifth last season playing primarily the much maligned 442 system and were doing pretty well before Cisse even got here?

 

Look, I would love us to go back to that 433 we briefly played at the tail end of last season. It did look quite sexy, Cisse was on fire and we did get some good results. There's no denying though we've also seen how vulnerable we can get when we deploy that formation, so I completely understand Pardew's reasoning in partnering his 2 best strikers up front, both of whom have proven they are capable of 20+ goals a season and building on solid defensive foundations just as we did in the first half of last season. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out - we look lost for ideas, some of our top performers are hopelessly out of form and we're not where we want to be in the table. That's fair enough, and Pardew needs to change that around if he wants to be in this job after this season. None of that explains why so many people on here seem hellbent on blaming Pardew, Ba, the transfer window or whatever other outside circumstance they can think off before pointing the finger at the players on the pitch who have let us down. Those include Colo and Tiote, but also Cisse, who we know is capable of much better than he is currently showing.

[Rich]

Where aside from Wigan has that formation looked vulnerable?

[ponsaelius]

'Vulnerable'

 

Pardaganda.

[Unbelievable]

Where aside from Wigan has that formation looked vulnerable?

 

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart.

[indi]

 

 

Have you noticed none of these other strikers who are scoring goals get 3 chances per game laid on a plate for them? Did you miss the fact his chance conversion percentage last season was 4 times higher than this season?

 

Did you notice that last season he was playing in a different system?

 

Did you notice we finished fifth last season playing primarily the much maligned 442 system and were doing pretty well before Cisse even got here?

 

Look, I would love us to go back to that 433 we briefly played at the tail end of last season. It did look quite sexy, Cisse was on fire and we did get some good results. There's no denying though we've also seen how vulnerable we can get when we deploy that formation, so I completely understand Pardew's reasoning in partnering his 2 best strikers up front, both of whom have proven they are capable of 20+ goals a season and building on solid defensive foundations just as we did in the first half of last season. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out - we look lost for ideas, some of our top performers are hopelessly out of form and we're not where we want to be in the table. That's fair enough, and Pardew needs to change that around if he wants to be in this job after this season. None of that explains why so many people on here seem hellbent on blaming Pardew, Ba, the transfer window or whatever other outside circumstance they can think off before pointing the finger at the players on the pitch who have let us down. Those include Colo and Tiote, but also Cisse, who we know is capable of much better than he is currently showing.

 

[themanupstairs]

I don't really know what you mean by his fault though?

 

Not sure why he won't answer this question.

[Wullie]

It's no more valid to say one is more vulnerable than the other on the evidence we've seen. The run before Wigan we conceded 1 goal in five games, we went to Spurs last year with two up top and got humiliated, we went to Southampton with two up top and they could have scored ten.

 

There's little doubt which is more effective going forward though. 4-4-2 gets the best out of one of our front six, at best. Cisse's not the only one who looked lost in it.

[Unbelievable]

I don't really know what you mean by his fault though?

 

Not sure why he won't answer this question.

 

His fault as in not a result of outside influences, but his own loss of form. Should we persevere with him? Yes we should, and we have/still are. Should we sacrifice results whilst he regains his form. That's where I draw the line. I'd sooner drop him and play him in the cups/Europe than playing him centrally in a 433 in this kind of hopeless form, that makes us as a team weaker defensively (first and foremost), whilst shipping our in form striker out of the team or playing him where he is nowhere as effective.

 

At the end of last season, I would have said it was Cisse's place to lose. As I've argued in another post on this page, I completely understand why Pardew wanted to try his tested 442 with 2 prolific strikers. It didn't work out. but now that we've learned this unfortunately for Papiss it's Ba's place to lose, as he has delivered while Cisse hasn't.

[Wullie]

Sacrifice results?

 

What are these results we'd be sacrificing? Defeat after defeat? Something needs changing man, not keeping the same. You talk about it like having Ba at the head with Cisse in Shark Bar is working for the team when it could not be working any less.

[Unbelievable]

It's no more valid to say one is more vulnerable than the other on the evidence we've seen. The run before Wigan we conceded 1 goal in five games, we went to Spurs last year with two up top and got humiliated, we went to Southampton with two up top and they could have scored ten.

 

There's little doubt which is more effective going forward though. 4-4-2 gets the best out of one of our front six, at best. Cisse's not the only one who looked lost in it.

 

The 442/433 is a completely different debate. Whilst you are correct, we also looked superb v Man Utd at home for example in a 442. Whether we play well or not is not all down to a simple matter of pushing a midfield player forward and tucking the remaining midfielders in.

 

Going back to Cisse though, wouldn't you agree his form has been disappointing this season? And if you believe this to be the case, is it not too easy to ignore his own involvement in that and completely lay the blame for it at others?

 

Fact is, if Cisse and Ba were in any way complimentary, we wouldn't even be having this debate..

[Rich]

Where aside from Wigan has that formation looked vulnerable?

 

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart.

 

Yeah I suppose so, had totally forgotten our initial approach that night to be honest. The personnel was canny different to what was successful last season mind and the Marveaux ploy to stop Baines was abysmal.

 

Harper; Perch, Williamson, Taylor, Santon; Anita, Jonas; Marveaux, Cabaye, Ben Arfa; Cisse was the team.

 

Almost half of our usual starters missing, Ben Arfa playing on the other side and it was only really the right side where we suffered IIRC.

 

Think we've been equally as shite or worse playing in different ways.

[Unbelievable]

Sacrifice results?

 

What are these results we'd be sacrificing? Defeat after defeat? Something needs changing man, not keeping the same. You talk about it like having Ba at the head with Cisse in Shark Bar is working for the team when it could not be working any less.

 

Do you really believe Cisse would be on 15+ goals now if only Pardew had told Ba to stick to the left side of the pitch?