Papiss Cissé

[Unbelievable]

Where aside from Wigan has that formation looked vulnerable?

 

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart.

 

Yeah I suppose so, had totally forgotten our initial approach that night to be honest. The personnel was canny different to what was successful last season mind and the Marveaux ploy to stop Baines was abysmal.

 

Harper; Perch, Williamson, Taylor, Santon; Anita, Jonas; Marveaux, Cabaye, Ben Arfa; Cisse was the team.

 

Almost half of our usual starters missing, Ben Arfa playing on the other side and it was only really the right side where we suffered IIRC.

 

Think we've been equally as s**** or worse playing in different ways.

 

You should have seen the prematch thread from the moment the team news was out that day. Then that abysmal, abysmal first half, reverting to 442 at half time (with Ba coming on) and ultimately looking decent value for a draw based on our second half performance.

 

Edit: coincidentally, in that reply is one of the real reasons why we had a stop/start first half of the season. Just look at that back 5 FFS.

[themanupstairs]

I don't really know what you mean by his fault though?

 

Not sure why he won't answer this question.

 

His fault as in not a result of outside influences, but his own loss of form. Should we persevere with him? Yes we should, and we have/still are. Should we sacrifice results whilst he regains his form. That's where I draw the line. I'd sooner drop him and play him in the cups/Europe than playing him centrally in a 433 in this kind of hopeless form, that makes us as a team weaker defensively (first and foremost), whilst shipping our in form striker out of the team or playing him where he is nowhere as effective.

 

At the end of last season, I would have said it was Cisse's place to lose. As I've argued in another post on this page, I completely understand why Pardew wanted to try his tested 442 with 2 prolific strikers. It didn't work out. but now that we've learned this unfortunately for Papiss it's Ba's place to lose, as he has delivered while Cisse hasn't.

 

I'm all for him being benched by the way! I'd rather we played with balance, and brought Cisse on for Ba to play central, if Ba is having a bad game. He is horribly off-form and playing him anywhere except smack down the throat of the center backs is criminal and will not solve his or our problems.

 

What I am saying though, is that there is no doubt in my mind Cisse's loss of form is due to the combination of extenuating circumstances now known as "the excuses".

[ponsaelius]

Remember Everton first half being essentially a 4-4-1-1. Marveaux deep on the right to counter Baines a completely disasterous (and negative) decision.

[Wullie]

Yeah he's been disappointing but he's never once played in his own position. Some players are more versatile than others. Anita looked like an utter mug in a central two.

 

Tbh there's very few players who haven't been disappointing, I think because of the way they're all being asked to play, negatively and direct. Ba's scored goals but IMO he's not playing well at all. It's no good just pointing at goal statistics otherwise Darren Bent would be somewhere better than Aston Villa's bench.

 

We need to be looking at a way for our strikers to be getting far more chances instead of quibbling about which one feeds off scraps best.

[themanupstairs]

Yeah he's been disappointing but he's never once played in his own position. Some players are more versatile than others. Anita looked like an utter mug in a central two.

 

Tbh there's very few players who haven't been disappointing, I think because of the way they're all being asked to play, negatively and direct. Ba's scored goals but IMO he's not playing well at all. It's no good just pointing at goal statistics otherwise Darren Bent would be somewhere better than Aston Villa's bench.

 

We need to be looking at a way for our strikers to be getting far more chances instead of quibbling about which one feeds off scraps best.

 

[Wullie]

Sacrifice results?

 

What are these results we'd be sacrificing? Defeat after defeat? Something needs changing man, not keeping the same. You talk about it like having Ba at the head with Cisse in Shark Bar is working for the team when it could not be working any less.

 

Do you really believe Cisse would be on 15+ goals now if only Pardew had told Ba to stick to the left side of the pitch?

 

I think the team would have been playing better and we'd have scored more goals. I'm not really interested in individual tallies.

[Unbelievable]

Remember Everton first half being essentially a 4-4-1-1. Marveaux deep on the right to counter Baines a completely disasterous (and negative) decision.

 

Knew people would claim that horrible experiment wasn't what they claim they want, but to be fair equally are we not playing a traditional 442 with 2 banks of four and 2 strikers up top much these last couple of weeks (i.e. in our run of losses). The reality is our problems run much deeper than simply sacrificing a midfield player for a winger.

[ponsaelius]

Remember Everton first half being essentially a 4-4-1-1. Marveaux deep on the right to counter Baines a completely disasterous (and negative) decision.

 

Knew people would claim that horrible experiment wasn't what they claim they want, but to be fair equally are we not playing a traditional 442 with 2 banks of four and 2 strikers up top much these last couple of weeks (i.e. in our run of losses). The reality is our problems run much deeper than simply sacrificing a midfield player for a winger.

 

Yep, the manager is shit

[Mick]

 

 

Did you notice we finished fifth last season playing primarily the much maligned 442 system and were doing pretty well before Cisse even got here?

 

Look, I would love us to go back to that 433 we briefly played at the tail end of last season. It did look quite sexy, Cisse was on fire and we did get some good results. There's no denying though we've also seen how vulnerable we can get when we deploy that formation, so I completely understand Pardew's reasoning in partnering his 2 best strikers up front, both of whom have proven they are capable of 20+ goals a season and building on solid defensive foundations just as we did in the first half of last season. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out - we look lost for ideas, some of our top performers are hopelessly out of form and we're not where we want to be in the table. That's fair enough, and Pardew needs to change that around if he wants to be in this job after this season. None of that explains why so many people on here seem hellbent on blaming Pardew, Ba, the transfer window or whatever other outside circumstance they can think off before pointing the finger at the players on the pitch who have let us down. Those include Colo and Tiote, but also Cisse, who we know is capable of much better than he is currently showing.

 

We finished higher up the table with Cisse last season than we were before he arrived.

 

We changed back to 4-4-2 this season and have played far too much long ball, which hasn't suited anybody and that change comes from the manager, at least it does if you believe the players.

 

We have constantly hit the ball from back to front, Ba and Cisse are not good and handling that kind of game and the same can be said for the midfielders.  We've played 4-4-2 without wingers getting in behind the fullback and putting balls into the box.  Just about everything we've tried looks to be out of desperation and we're getting found out, just like the manager.

 

We keep hearing excuses for him on here and inevitably something comes out that brings it back to the manager.  The excuses have been that it’s the players playing hoof ball, it turns out that the players think it’s the manager.

 

We look shit going forward and people blame the players, it turns out that we spend 80% of our training time defending.  We spend 1 day a week looking at how to get at the opposition and to be honest, it shows in our games.

 

We’ve brought in a class forward and we’ve turned him to shit in no time and it’s beyond a joke that people still find excuses for Pardew who is a glorified bluffer.  He's getting bigged up by some for beating the worst team I've seen at St James' for years.  He did that with 4 defensive midfielders against a truly rotten team because he hasn't got the balls to have a go at them.  It took him 3 substitutions to get it right because Shola and Obertan weren’t going to change the game.

 

At the third attempt he brought on the player that the game was crying out for, a player that was an obvious choice to start, never mind come off the bench.

 

I’m very close to wanting him out of the club and the only reason I don’t yet is because like others, I don’t trust the idiots who employed him to get the replacement right.  If things get any worse though it will be worth getting rid of him just because keeping him will have too many dangers for the club because make no mistake about it.  Getting relegated again will not be as painless as last time.

 

The last time we went down we lost a load of players who were only here for the money and players who let’s be honest, weren’t very likeable.  Now though we have a good set of players who are good enough to play here and they’ll not be replaced as easily as the ones we got rid of last time,  And, we’ll not have the £35 million windfall that Carroll brought last time we came up and that should never be under estimated because without it we’d be struggling even more than we are now.

 

[Unbelievable]

Yeah he's been disappointing but he's never once played in his own position. Some players are more versatile than others. Anita looked like an utter mug in a central two.

 

Tbh there's very few players who haven't been disappointing, I think because of the way they're all being asked to play, negatively and direct. Ba's scored goals but IMO he's not playing well at all. It's no good just pointing at goal statistics otherwise Darren Bent would be somewhere better than Aston Villa's bench.

 

We need to be looking at a way for our strikers to be getting far more chances instead of quibbling about which one feeds off scraps best.

 

 

Fully agree with all of that.

[Rich]

Where aside from Wigan has that formation looked vulnerable?

 

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart.

 

Yeah I suppose so, had totally forgotten our initial approach that night to be honest. The personnel was canny different to what was successful last season mind and the Marveaux ploy to stop Baines was abysmal.

 

Harper; Perch, Williamson, Taylor, Santon; Anita, Jonas; Marveaux, Cabaye, Ben Arfa; Cisse was the team.

 

Almost half of our usual starters missing, Ben Arfa playing on the other side and it was only really the right side where we suffered IIRC.

 

Think we've been equally as s**** or worse playing in different ways.

 

You should have seen the prematch thread from the moment the team news was out that day. Then that abysmal, abysmal first half, reverting to 442 at half time (with Ba coming on) and ultimately looking decent value for a draw based on our second half performance.

 

Edit: coincidentally, in that reply is one of the real reasons why we had a stop/start first half of the season. Just look at that back 5 FFS.

 

In regards to the edit, I thought the same but then went and looked at our line-ups for the "good" 4-3-3 matches from last season (the 6 games from Norwich-Stoke) and realised the team was constantly unsettled then too (and missing "big" players a lot of the time).

 

The defence for the 2-0 Liverpool win was Simpson, Williamson, Perch and Gutierrez

[ponsaelius]

The Liverpool home game was one of the best we've had for controlling the match. Apart from an iffy first few minutes, the balance of the front 6 and grip we had on the game meant the weak back 4 was never put under serious pressure.

[Unbelievable]

Remember Everton first half being essentially a 4-4-1-1. Marveaux deep on the right to counter Baines a completely disasterous (and negative) decision.

 

Knew people would claim that horrible experiment wasn't what they claim they want, but to be fair equally are we not playing a traditional 442 with 2 banks of four and 2 strikers up top much these last couple of weeks (i.e. in our run of losses). The reality is our problems run much deeper than simply sacrificing a midfield player for a winger.

 

Yep, the manager is s***

 

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be to say we're not bringing in the players that he wants/needs in order for him to play his preferred style of play (regardless of what we think about the aesthetics of that style of play). Why else bring in a striker who can only excel in a 433, and a defensive midfield player who thrives on possession based linkup play between the defensive players and the midfield/forward players, when he seemnigly wants to play a traditional English game with two banks of four and a little man/big man combo up front?

[Unbelievable]

Where aside from Wigan has that formation looked vulnerable?

 

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart.

 

Yeah I suppose so, had totally forgotten our initial approach that night to be honest. The personnel was canny different to what was successful last season mind and the Marveaux ploy to stop Baines was abysmal.

 

Harper; Perch, Williamson, Taylor, Santon; Anita, Jonas; Marveaux, Cabaye, Ben Arfa; Cisse was the team.

 

Almost half of our usual starters missing, Ben Arfa playing on the other side and it was only really the right side where we suffered IIRC.

 

Think we've been equally as s**** or worse playing in different ways.

 

You should have seen the prematch thread from the moment the team news was out that day. Then that abysmal, abysmal first half, reverting to 442 at half time (with Ba coming on) and ultimately looking decent value for a draw based on our second half performance.

 

Edit: coincidentally, in that reply is one of the real reasons why we had a stop/start first half of the season. Just look at that back 5 FFS.

 

In regards to the edit, I thought the same but then went and looked at our line-ups for the "good" 4-3-3 matches from last season (the 6 games from Norwich-Stoke) and realised the team was constantly unsettled then too (and missing "big" players a lot of the time).

 

The defence for the 2-0 Liverpool win was Simpson, Williamson, Perch and Gutierrez

 

For the first 15 or so matches of last season though, where we laid the foundations for our excellent season, we had a settled back five.

[Hanshithispantz]

Why take on a job and then sign a new 8 year contract if the club are actively signing players you don't want/cannot use?

 

Pardew is completely to blame if that is the case, like.

[ponsaelius]

Remember Everton first half being essentially a 4-4-1-1. Marveaux deep on the right to counter Baines a completely disasterous (and negative) decision.

 

Knew people would claim that horrible experiment wasn't what they claim they want, but to be fair equally are we not playing a traditional 442 with 2 banks of four and 2 strikers up top much these last couple of weeks (i.e. in our run of losses). The reality is our problems run much deeper than simply sacrificing a midfield player for a winger.

 

Yep, the manager is s***

 

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be to say we're not bringing in the players that he wants/needs in order for him to play his preferred style of play (regardless of what we think about the aesthetics of that style of play). Why else bring in a striker who can only excel in a 433, and a defensive midfield player who thrives on possession based linkup play between the defensive players and the midfield/forward players, when he seemnigly wants to play a traditional English game with two banks of four and a little man/big man combo up front?

 

To be honest, if the long term tactical aim from Pardew is what you've suggested (and many suspect) then I really do want him gone. We will never consistently achieve anything tangible playing like that even with the players needed to make it work. The glass ceiling for that is what O'Neill achieved with Villa.

[Unbelievable]

Why take on a job and then sign a new 8 year contract if the club are actively signing players you don't want/cannot use?

 

Pardew is completely to blame if that is the case, like.

 

Pardew cannot win. Let me ask you: do you work? If so, is everything in your job exactly how you want it? If not, why haven't you walked yet?

[Unbelievable]

Remember Everton first half being essentially a 4-4-1-1. Marveaux deep on the right to counter Baines a completely disasterous (and negative) decision.

 

Knew people would claim that horrible experiment wasn't what they claim they want, but to be fair equally are we not playing a traditional 442 with 2 banks of four and 2 strikers up top much these last couple of weeks (i.e. in our run of losses). The reality is our problems run much deeper than simply sacrificing a midfield player for a winger.

 

Yep, the manager is s***

 

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be to say we're not bringing in the players that he wants/needs in order for him to play his preferred style of play (regardless of what we think about the aesthetics of that style of play). Why else bring in a striker who can only excel in a 433, and a defensive midfield player who thrives on possession based linkup play between the defensive players and the midfield/forward players, when he seemnigly wants to play a traditional English game with two banks of four and a little man/big man combo up front?

 

To be honest, if the long term tactical aim from Pardew is what you've suggested (and many suspect) then I really do want him gone. We will never consistently achieve anything tangible playing like that even with the players needed to make it work. The glass ceiling for that is what O'Neill achieved with Villa.

 

We beat that last season 6 months ago..

[Jack Flash]

Why take on a job and then sign a new 8 year contract if the club are actively signing players you don't want/cannot use?

 

Pardew is completely to blame if that is the case, like.

 

Pardew cannot win. Let me ask you: do you work? If so, is everything in your job exactly how you want it? If not, why haven't you walked yet?

 

A manager usually hires their own staff in the real world but Pardew knew exactly what he was getting into before he joined so I've little sympathy for him in this regard.

[ponsaelius]

Remember Everton first half being essentially a 4-4-1-1. Marveaux deep on the right to counter Baines a completely disasterous (and negative) decision.

 

Knew people would claim that horrible experiment wasn't what they claim they want, but to be fair equally are we not playing a traditional 442 with 2 banks of four and 2 strikers up top much these last couple of weeks (i.e. in our run of losses). The reality is our problems run much deeper than simply sacrificing a midfield player for a winger.

 

Yep, the manager is s***

 

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be to say we're not bringing in the players that he wants/needs in order for him to play his preferred style of play (regardless of what we think about the aesthetics of that style of play). Why else bring in a striker who can only excel in a 433, and a defensive midfield player who thrives on possession based linkup play between the defensive players and the midfield/forward players, when he seemnigly wants to play a traditional English game with two banks of four and a little man/big man combo up front?

 

To be honest, if the long term tactical aim from Pardew is what you've suggested (and many suspect) then I really do want him gone. We will never consistently achieve anything tangible playing like that even with the players needed to make it work. The glass ceiling for that is what O'Neill achieved with Villa.

 

We beat that last season 6 months ago..

 

Largely because of the individual brilliance of players like Ben Arfa (players who don't fit into that system in the slightest).

 

We're also now fighting a relegation battle, hence 'consistently achieve'.

[Hanshithispantz]

Why take on a job and then sign a new 8 year contract if the club are actively signing players you don't want/cannot use?

 

Pardew is completely to blame if that is the case, like.

 

Pardew cannot win. Let me ask you: do you work? If so, is everything in your job exactly how you want it? If not, why haven't you walked yet?

I got layed off about a month ago

 

That was a fucking awful comparison though, Christ, even if I hated my job (which I didn't really) I'm not in a position at the moment where I could have just happily walked and my job wasn't of such importance that the company could potentially deteriorate if I fuck up.

 

You expect the manager of any business to step down if he isn't the right man for the job.

[Mick]

 

 

To be honest, if the long term tactical aim from Pardew is what you've suggested (and many suspect) then I really do want him gone. We will never consistently achieve anything tangible playing like that even with the players needed to make it work. The glass ceiling for that is what O'Neill achieved with Villa.

 

You mention O'Neill, at half time on Saturday he had the mackems above us in the league and he's been slaughtered on here for being shite.

[Cronky]

We have to take into account the fact that Ba and Cisse were competing for the main striker role, and Ba has won that battle. In fact, he won it before a ball had been kicked this season, with Pardew going out of his way to please him so he wouldn't walk.

 

So Cisse has had two psychological blows to overcome - firstly that of being number 2, and secondly the feeling that's it's all been unfair. If confidence plays a big part in finishing, it's no wonder that he's not at his best, even when the chances come along (which of course isn't as often, given his change of role).

[Guest neesy111]

Why take on a job and then sign a new 8 year contract if the club are actively signing players you don't want/cannot use?

 

Pardew is completely to blame if that is the case, like.

 

Pardew cannot win. Let me ask you: do you work? If so, is everything in your job exactly how you want it? If not, why haven't you walked yet?

 

He's the manager of a football team.  Completely different.

[Dr Venkman]

I don't really know what you mean by his fault though?

 

Not sure why he won't answer this question.

Should we sacrifice results whilst he regains his form.

 

What is this shit?