sunderland

[Godot]

Don't worry lads, their class remains intact despite this:

 

http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=770673

[oldtype]

is phil k trying to say that decaring yourself a fascist is technically not the same as declaring yourself a nazi or a rascist? 

 

'cause if so he's technically correct

 

I imagine it would be possible to be a fascist without being a racist. Certainly wouldn't be easy though.

 

the origins of fascism were not based on race whatsoever

 

Let's say we are to define fascism as a political ideology glorifying and concentrating power into the state and its authority figures.

 

To mobilize people to accept that sort of model en masse is generally impossible without aggressive nationalism.

 

It's very difficult to have people buy into that sort of aggressive nationalism without notions of racial supremacy, or at the very least a strong dose of xenophobia.

 

Therefore, while racism might be an integral part of fascism, it's usually part of the model as a means to an end and it's pretty hard to separate the two completely.

 

Of course, we're talking about political ideology on an individual level here and not recipes for regime formation. In that case, I'm assuming you'd be skipping line one and going straight to line two, which makes it even harder to divorce fascism from racism on an individual level.

[Guest Phil K]

It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it.

True. The term "fascist" is seen differently by different people as we've seen on here.

Wikipaedia has this - "The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word."

Thats been my view of the word. Extremist political views, right OR left

[mrmojorisin75]

is phil k trying to say that decaring yourself a fascist is technically not the same as declaring yourself a nazi or a rascist? 

 

'cause if so he's technically correct

 

I imagine it would be possible to be a fascist without being a racist. Certainly wouldn't be easy though.

 

the origins of fascism were not based on race whatsoever

 

Let's say we are to define fascism as a political ideology glorifying and concentrating power into the state and its authority figures.

 

To mobilize people to accept that sort of model en masse is generally impossible without aggressive nationalism.

 

It's very difficult to have people buy into that sort of aggressive nationalism without notions of racial supremacy, or at the very least a strong dose of xenophobia.

 

Therefore, while racism might be an integral part of fascism, it's usually part of the model as a means to an end and it's pretty hard to separate the two completely.

 

agreed, that's why i said technically correct

[Guest firetotheworks]

It's xenophobia more than racism isn't it? When the Facsist ideal is about an insular state, then it probably just becomes semantics really. Countries, races, sex and so on. No wrong making a right and everything.

 

Reminds me of that sketch on Jam 'No, I wasn't cheating on you, I was only bloody raping her!'

[themanupstairs]

I'm with PhilK on this one tbh. I don't think he's belittling the history of fascism or condoning Di Canio's views. For all I care he's an attention whore (Di Canio that is), and gave the salute to Lazio fans because he played for them. A lot of people declare themselves one thing or another when in the spotlight to generate PR. The "confession" could well just have been a stupid way to save face (better of two evils so to speak).

 

What matters to me is that he's the mackem pied piper now and I want him to fail purely on that basis alone. Having said that, as long as we get 3 pts against them I don't care if they stay up or go down.

[oldtype]

It's xenophobia more than racism isn't it? When the Facsist ideal is about an insular state, then it probably just becomes semantics really. Countries, races, sex and so on. No wrong making a right and everything.

 

Reminds me of that sketch on Jam 'No, I wasn't cheating on you, I was only bloody raping her!'

 

Well, how do you justify shutting your country up from other countries and peoples though? It's generally not easy without some sort of idea of racial purity/superiority.

 

It's even more difficult to imagine how on an individual level you could be ideologically "fascist" without being racist. Does Di Canio just somebody who thinks 'This has nothing to do with any other country, but our government is so awesome, so fuck our individual rights and lets give it undisputed authority?' That's probably even more screwed up than Racism

[Guest Phil K]

I'm with PhilK on this one tbh. I don't think he's belittling the history of fascism or condoning Di Canio's views. For all I care he's an attention whore (Di Canio that is), and gave the salute to Lazio fans because he played for them. A lot of people declare themselves one thing or another when in the spotlight to generate PR. The "confession" could well just have been a stupid way to save face (better of two evils so to speak).

 

What matters to me is that he's the mackem pied piper now and I want him to fail purely on that basis alone. Having said that, as long as we get 3 pts against them I don't care if they stay up or go down.

 

THANK YOU

FINALLY someone who can see the WORDS and actually see the meaning by the words instead of what they WANT them to mean.

Like a certain couple of types who I am beginning to think are one and the same ! 

 

[George Bailey]

It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it.

True. The term "fascist" is seen differently by different people as we've seen on here.

Wikipaedia has this - "The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word."

Thats been my view of the word. Extremist political views, right OR left

 

Ignorance.Pure ignorance.

 

NO PLATFORM FOR FASCISTS.

 

 

[Guest firetotheworks]

It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it.

True. The term "fascist" is seen differently by different people as we've seen on here.

Wikipaedia has this - "The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word."

Thats been my view of the word. Extremist political views, right OR left

 

Okay, so you mean Totalitarianism. I took you to mean Fascism in the way that history and the primary meaning of the word has me interpreting it.

[Guest Haris Vuckic]

He was doing a Nazi salute - what kind of fascism do people think he's referring to?

 

 

[BlueStar]

It depends if you think the fascist position on nationalism, global expansion and ethnic identity are racist or not, doesn't it.

True. The term "fascist" is seen differently by different people as we've seen on here.

Wikipaedia has this - "The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word."

Thats been my view of the word. Extremist political views, right OR left

But that's not how Di Canio using it. He IS using the formal definition when he self identifies as a fascist, not the kind of usage where you call a bus driver a fascist for not changing your fiver.

[Guest firetotheworks]

It's xenophobia more than racism isn't it? When the Facsist ideal is about an insular state, then it probably just becomes semantics really. Countries, races, sex and so on. No wrong making a right and everything.

 

Reminds me of that sketch on Jam 'No, I wasn't cheating on you, I was only bloody raping her!'

 

Well, how do you justify shutting your country up from other countries and peoples though? It's generally not easy without some sort of idea of racial purity/superiority.

 

It's even more difficult to imagine how on an individual level you could be ideologically "fascist" without being racist. Does Di Canio just somebody who thinks 'This has nothing to do with any other country, but our government is so awesome, so f*** our individual rights and lets give it undisputed authority?' That's probably even more screwed up than Racism

 

I agree.  I can't imagine racism not being part of it, but there'll be some that say 'it's not about colour' and think that that's all that has to be said.

[Guest Phil K]

Ignorance.Pure ignorance.

NO PLATFORM FOR FASCISTS.

Not even close.

Extremist views against people can be done by both sides of extremist views, whether you call them Fascist or Totalitarians means zilch. End product is the same.

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

Mussolini was never really an anti-semite in the same way Hitler and the Nazi's were either.  It was only when he began to believe that Judaism was linked with Bolshevism that he really adopted an anti-semitic policy.

[oldtype]

At the end of the day, we're probably paying Di Canio too much respect by even having a serious discussion about this.

 

He's most likely just an attention whore who thinks associating himself with Mussolini makes him look hard or something.

[Guest Phil K]

But that's not how Di Canio using it. He IS using the formal definition when he self identifies as a fascist, not the kind of usage where you call a bus driver a fascist for not changing your fiver.

Valid, but really, all we'll do is go round in circles. SURELY it's better to just take the P at the Sunderland supporters expense ?

 

At the end of the day, we're probably paying Di Canio too much respect by even having a serious discussion about this.

 

He's most likely just an attention whore who thinks associating himself with Mussolini makes him look hard or something.

One of (if not THE) best point made so far, this. 

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

At the end of the day, we're probably paying Di Canio too much respect by even having a serious discussion about this.

 

He's most likely just an attention whore who thinks associating himself with Mussolini makes him look hard or something.

 

this is ultimately the top and bottom of it, along with kicking his players etc.

[Nobody]

At the end of the day, we're probably paying Di Canio too much respect by even having a serious discussion about this.

 

He's most likely just an attention whore who thinks associating himself with Mussolini makes him look hard or something.

Without a doubt

[Guest Haris Vuckic]

Lots of proper Neo Nazi's across Europe mind....even in strange places like Holland...

[Dr Venkman]

But that's not how Di Canio using it. He IS using the formal definition when he self identifies as a fascist, not the kind of usage where you call a bus driver a fascist for not changing your fiver.

Valid, but really, all we'll do is go round in circles. SURELY it's better to just take the P at the Sunderland supporters expense ?

 

Can we get on with it then?

 

[Guest firetotheworks]

Ignorance.Pure ignorance.

NO PLATFORM FOR FASCISTS.

Not even close.

Extremist views against people can be done by both sides of extremist views, whether you call them Fascist or Totalitarians means zilch. End product is the same.

 

Again, wrong. Fighting to give everyone control does not end up the same as fighting for the dominance of a few. The ends are not defined by their means. People will die for what they believe in, not to be a statistic.

 

If definitions meant nothing there would be no post mortems. After all, dead is dead is dead in your eyes.

[Dokko]

It's quite unreal how many mackems are happy with this. They really are a different type of person, we've all known it for years but the rest of the country are starting to realise how disgusting they are.

 

One good thing that'll come out of this is they'll ruin themselves over this doing silly things like doing that salute to him, singing fascist songs in support of their new leader and after the fines and uproar the dust will settle and no serious manger, player or sponsor will go anywhere near the club again. 

 

Parky might say at this point Short is doing it on purpose, he's damaging the club as much as he can before cutting them adrift. Nothing else makes as much sense 

[Guest NobbyOhNobby]

The main concern with me with his political leanings is that it justifies those beliefs in a poorly educated, and essentially poor part of the country that is already seeing increased EDL and UKip memberships. The public face of the city is a confessed fascist, so they'll all think its alright to make vocal their poorly formed gripes with immigrants etc etc etc.

 

I genuinely won't be surprised to see some idiot Sunderland fans replicating his Lazio salute, and that's a huge shame.

[themanupstairs]

At the end of the day, we're probably paying Di Canio too much respect by even having a serious discussion about this.

 

He's most likely just an attention whore who thinks associating himself with Mussolini makes him look hard or something.

 

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