How highly do you rate... Robert Pires?

[Ronaldo]

How many English forwards are there starting in the PL, though?

 

Look at us: you have Ba, Cisse and Ameobi. Spot the one who was developed in this country.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Please explain on how that is relevant towards the discussion we're having about modern strikers - unless you're suggesting that English forwards are not of that caliber, in which case I'd agree (and that is mainly down to coaching/tradition - physicality over technique). At no point have I denied more foreign players are becoming a huge factor in the Premiership, that's not the debate we're having here. What you're saying is that there's no such thing as a modern forward, and if there was it wouldn't be players like Neymar, Messi, David Villa, Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, El Shaarawy, di Natale, whereas I  believe the modern forward is someone who is smaller, mobile (agile/acceleration/balance), technical, robust (balance/strength), finishers, creators, play between the lines, etc. which in turn is leading to a shift in the type of defenders people are buying today... which is why I'd like to see a video of Tony Adams play against Zola.

 

We'll probably always have poachers and targetmen but they're becoming increasingly rare within the game at the moment as they're too specialised - think of the times that Hernandez at Man U is used. Even Cisse this season, he works best in the box, for example.

[Disco]

Now I've just had a random flashback to Ruben Sosa. Lovely centre forward.

 

Brought up randomly the other day by KenDahl IIRC in some other thread, someone I'd totally forgotten about but a master none the less.

 

Adams despite his limitations was a superb player, comfortable playing the covering defender alongside Keown/Linighan or the attacking defender when needs be. Slow (and I remember him getting turned inside out for a couple of goals against us) but didn't really need to be fast such was his natural ability for defending. Not amongst the best but certainly amongst the best English, not a similar player but similar in rep to John Terry to me.

[Incognito]

From 86 through to 94, I always thought the Donkey tag was well suited to him. From 95 until he retired he improved so much that during this time , especially 96 to 99 , there weren't many better centre halfs in World football.

 

I think George Graham getting the push from Arsenal and Terry Venables becoming England manager are the main catalyst of this coupled with Arsene taking the reins at Highbury, and forcing Adams to be a footballer as well as a no nonsense defender. Loved his goal against Everton that sealed one of their titles.

[Guest tollemache]

Now I've just had a random flashback to Ruben Sosa. Lovely centre forward.

 

Remember his hat-trick of piledriven free kicks v... Lazio I think it was? Just humped into the roof of the net from way out

 

Also a bicycle kick from a silly angle, from a long ball by Wim Jonk. See if I can find it... OK, can't remember the exact rules on youtube links but if you search on there for "Ruben Sosa al INTER (1992-1995)" it's goal number 2, near the end. Also against Lazio.

[macphisto]

I think Adams was OK not as good as Des Walker before him and also not as good as Ferdinand after him.

 

Had a few drinks so I'm not sure if I've followed the argument between Ronaldo and Ock correctly but there were a load of players better than Aguero and Tevez around in the 90's who meet the criteria mentioned earlier. Based on skill I'd take Romario, Gullit, Berkgamp, Van Basten, Baggio, Batistuta and Ronaldo at the end of the decade ahead of any modern day players apart from Messi.

 

With regards to English football there may not have been many skilful forwards but we've always had people like Dalglish, Beardsley, Yorke and Sheringham. Even Nigel Clough and Nicky Barmby were decent at certain times.

[Interpolic]

Liked him as a defender but one of the most ridiculous examples I've ever seen of a London media darling to the extent that it became difficult to judge if they were blowing smoke up his arse unless you watched him every week. I suspect that they were but he was good anyway.

[Guest tollemache]

I think Adams was OK not as good as Des Walker before him and also not as good as Ferdinand after him.

 

Agree about Ferdinand, not so sure about Walker. Maybe I just didn't see enough of him - was he really that good? I dimly remember a period in the 90s when he was briefly a byword for clownshoes. Something to do with an own goal or two he scored..?

 

Had a few drinks so I'm not sure if I've followed the argument between Ronaldo and Ock correctly but there were a load of players better than Aguero and Tevez around in the 90's who meet the criteria mentioned earlier. Based on skill I'd take Romario, Gullit, Berkgamp, Van Basten, Baggio, Batistuta and Ronaldo at the end of the decade ahead of any modern day players apart from Messi.

 

I was with you up until "any modern day players"... Cronaldo for one, and David Villa is certainly in that league. Zlatan arguably. I think we'll probably look back on Tevez and Aguero in the same kind of way but it's harder when they're in the middle of their careers.

 

With regards to English football there may not have been many skilful forwards but we've always had people like Dalglish, Beardsley, Yorke and Sheringham. Even Nigel Clough and Nicky Barmby were decent at certain times.

 

Beardsley is out there on his own I think, in terms of skillful strikers. LE TISSIER is the most freakishly un-English English player I think I've ever seen though. Gary Taylor-Fletcher didn't really come through the way I thought he would....

[Incognito]

Id put Adams ahead of Ferdinand but slightly behind Walker. People underestimate the inspirational qualities Adams had that neither of the others had so much whilst Walkers pace had to be seen to be believed, quickest cb I've ever seen married to a good reading of the game makes him the best English cb I've seen.

[sugoinufc]

this lovely fellow i rated very highly. Sorry for being of topic.

 

http://www.factor-web.com/cromo/cromomes/signori9394-nov09.jpg

 

 

 

 

[Mag-ic]

Once spoke to Tony Adams on the phone whilst manning a reception desk. That is all.

[Tooj]

Id put Adams ahead of Ferdinand but slightly behind Walker. People underestimate the inspirational qualities Adams had that neither of the others had so much whilst Walkers pace had to be seen to be believed, quickest cb I've ever seen married to a good reading of the game makes him the best English cb I've seen.

When my granda was alive he used to say the exact same thing about Walker. He also said going to Italy ruined him.

[Incognito]

Id put Adams ahead of Ferdinand but slightly behind Walker. People underestimate the inspirational qualities Adams had that neither of the others had so much whilst Walkers pace had to be seen to be believed, quickest cb I've ever seen married to a good reading of the game makes him the best English cb I've seen.

When my granda was alive he used to say the exact same thing about Walker. He also said going to Italy ruined him.

 

It did....fucking Sven bought him for Sampdoria and started playing him at left back.....clueless cretin.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Once spoke to Tony Adams on the phone whilst manning a reception desk. That is all.

 

Why was Tony Adams manning a reception desk?

[Guest bimpy474]

Drive past the rebuilt wall Tony Adams destroyed when he was pissed out of his tree, every time i go shopping.

[Mag-ic]

Once spoke to Tony Adams on the phone whilst manning a reception desk. That is all.

 

Why was Tony Adams manning a reception desk?

 

Cos the rest of the office had gone to the pub for lunch. Temptation and all that...

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Kluivert was the ultimate centre-forward in that he could do all the standard centre-forward things that the likes of Shearer and Drogba were renowned for but he could also play make too. I can't think of many playmaker type centre-forwards like him. Consistency was a problem for him, that and his attitude. When on form though he was unstoppable and unplayable. A genuine world-class performer and all-round footballer.

 

We didn't see the best of him obviously but even in his short Toon cameo he still showed high levels of skill, flair and class. I reckon if Bobby had of stayed and we could have got him fit, Kluivert would have went onto become a cult hero here. I still feel good inside knowing we actually attracted such a high calibre player to our club and I enjoyed his spell here when he actually got onto the pitch, even though he clearly wasn't at his best. Not many clubs can say they have had the forwards we have had over the years can they.

 

As for Tony Adams, he is probably the best out and out defender I've seen. But as he showed when Wenger arrived, he could play a bit too. Didn't Shearer say he was someone he actually didn't like playing against as he always struggled against him? Great player and probably underrated. Today he'd certainly be up there as one of the best if he was playing today. To think Terry is regarded as one of our best out and out defenders... not a patch on Adams!

 

That whole Arsenal back-line man. Seaman was a top goalkeeper of course but Dixon, Bould, Winterburn et al were average yet because they had Adams alongside them marshaling them, they were solid as out. He was great at organising a defence and leading his team-mates. He was a very good tackler too. People think of him as a hard man and a rough defender yet he was far more cultured than that.

 

Great thread this by the way.

[Ronaldo]

Kluivert was the ultimate centre-forward in that he could do all the standard centre-forward things that the likes of Shearer and Drogba were renowned for but he could also play make too.

 

Drogba could too.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

By the way, I'm with Ronaldo on the issue of modern strikers.

 

Its a bit of a myth that there has been a tradition of 'typical English' centre-forwards of the Duncan Ferguson type. As such this whole 'dying breed' thing is a fallacy really. In the last 30 years we have seen a whole myriad of different types of strikers, forwards and centre-forwards just as we have today. They have always existed as Ronaldo said.

 

I disagree that we are seeing more and more diversity as well. We've always had it, even in our own game with our own players, again as Ronaldo said. Shearer, Le Tissier, Fowler, Wright, Sir Les, Cole, Owen, Sheringham, Sutton, Dublin, Rooney, Carroll, Defoe, Beardsley, Phillips, Sturridge et al have all represented England in the last 20 years yet are all different types of striker/forward/centre-forward. Even Shearer and Sir Les were different.

 

By the way its actually an insult to the likes of Alan Shearer to label him a typical or traditional old fashioned English centre-forward type or whatever you want to call it. The man, in is prime, was arguably the best all-round striker on the planet and had far more to his game than someone like Grant Holt who you could actually argue is a throw-back to the so-called traditional English centre-forward type. A type of striker that has and does indeed still exist, but never in the numbers often used to subsequently trot out the cliched dying breed crap. Even in the 50s and 60s the so-called traditional centre-forward didn't really exist in large numbers. There has been no real evolution of the striker/forward/centre-forward. The types we are seeing today in Tevez, Aguero et al have always existed.

 

The real dying breed type striker is the poacher, the fox in the box, the Gary Lineker type (Cottee, Rush, Allen et al) and that's more down to the evolution of our game, especially here in England, which has had the most dramatic and biggest change in the last 20 years.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Kluivert was the ultimate centre-forward in that he could do all the standard centre-forward things that the likes of Shearer and Drogba were renowned for but he could also play make too.

 

Drogba could too.

 

Not in the way Kluivert could who was more Beardsley/Bergkamp/Rooney like when it came to vision and playmaking. Kluivert could recieve the ball to feet, turn, without looking up and lob the ball over the defence for someone like Saviola to run onto without much effort. He could play balls through on the deck too. That's because he could see things well in advance. Drogba never could, although what he was good at was picking up the ball deep, shielding it, protecting it etc. which allowed others to advance up the pitch where he would then play them through, he was very good at that. Duff and Robben ran amok as a result. Drogba is probably one of the best central forwards in the last 20 years easily with his back to goal and in front of goal, along with Shearer of course.

 

Imagine Shearer or Drogba centrally for us now with Bellamy left and Ben Arfa right or vice versa... I love Ba but those guys were on another level as far as centre-forwards go.

[Flip]

Has there ever been a better player than Shearer in the air? How was Les and Duncan Ferguson?

 

Will never forget my only visit to SJP where Shearer didn't lose one header all game. I think we must've won every header that day as Bramble was a beast at the back and Shearer was winning absolutely everything with Dyer and Bellamy running in behind on the flicks.

[Guest tollemache]

Despite him clearly not being arsed and being a dreadful signing, I quite enjoyed Kluivert's nonchalance at times for Newcastle. He'd traipse about the pitch like Dimitar Berbatov on ketamine, then it'd come to him and he'd do something incredibly neat with one touch before sauntering after the attack. He generally did just enough to make it clear that he knew that everybody knew that he was easily the most talented player on the pitch.

[Cajun]

Sir Les was awesome, big Dunc wasn't bad either.

[Ronaldo]

Has there ever been a better player than Shearer in the air? How was Les and Duncan Ferguson?

 

Both of them were far better, for a start.

[Tooj]

Has there ever been a better player than Shearer in the air? How was Les and Duncan Ferguson?

 

Will never forget my only visit to SJP where Shearer didn't lose one header all game. I think we must've won every header that day as Bramble was a beast at the back and Shearer was winning absolutely everything with Dyer and Bellamy running in behind on the flicks.

 

Gary Speed was the best in the air I've seen here.