Rafael Benitez

[Sho Time]

I really enjoy the insight from people who've properly experienced Rafa and know what he's about. We're extremely fortunate to have him and he's the best manager we could ever hope to have, but he is human and our setup at home that isn't ideal at the moment. Unlike the previous fraudsters that we've had however I have no doubts he's already identified what went wrong and will sort it.

[madras]

Some interesting comments in his nufctv interview. Pretty much said we tried to do the difficult things rather than the simple and put ourselves under pressure. I know nobody's going to come out and say we were complacent but that comment is somewhat damning, IMO.

Wonder if he's including himself with that comment ?

[madras]

I'm sure you've probably had your fair share of LFC fans coming on here posting Rafa stuff, so apologies. I'm a huge fan of his (and have a familial connection with NUFC) so I was glad to see him wind up there. He will do really well for you. But after you spanked QPR the other night - for which, thanks, I live in West London surrounded by Rs fans - I *knew* you wouldn't get a result today. I don't what it is about Rafa, but his teams often follow a thrashing with a poor result. I sometimes wonder whether his need to play down a good result, and warn against complacency, can undo some of the momentum that comes from such a result, rather than allow the players to bask in it for a bit and ride a hot hand. His teams also have the habit of throwing in a real stinking performance when you least expect it, with no real explanation. I can remember us being beaten 2-0 by Boro four days after beating Real at the Bernabeu in 2009. It was Rafa in excelsis. A performance of the highest quality, a tactical masterclass, followed by a a rancid performance out of nowhere. Then we went on a massive run and nearly won the league, but that result was costly as hell in the final shake up. Similar things happened at Napoli too. Losing 3-0 to Atalanta after a seven or eight game unbeaten run that effectively ended. I remember his Chelsea smashing Villa 8-0 but then losing 1-0 at QPR, who were bottom.

 

It was often a criticism levelled at him that his Liverpool and Napoli teams drew too many games, and there's something in that. But for me at LFC it was often the inexplicable losses that cost us, particularly in the middle of a run of otherwise good results. I have a theory or two as to why but it's always been a bit weird, as he gets so much else right. Is it even down to him, given all players have a tendency to be complacent after a series of good results or a thrashing? But there does seem to be a pattern. I still think you'll be fine as the wins will outweigh these types of losses and he'll be great in the bigger matches against rivals. Be worried v Burton at home though.

 

I also think you'll murder Wolves in the cup on Tuesday. Smashing them a few days after losing them to would also be peak Rafa.

 

Sorry for butting in.

You didn't butt in and good input. At Liverpool I know he changed the team all the time, was he always changing the pattern aswell, even after good results ?

[Away Toon]

The bottom line is that we are by far the biggest club in the Championship, support, revenue, the lot. We have also just bought more players and spent more money than all of our competitors. We should walk this league, certainly most people on here seem to think so, we have the biggest squad, most of the best players and Rafa Benitez as Manager.

 

And yet we've lost 3 games including 2 at home already, we look fragile if we go behind, nobody including the players has any idea who will be playing in the next game, we have no idea of what are best starting 11 are, and we look no more likely to be automatically promoted than Huddersfield or Norwich. So what's up? Teething problems or something much more worrying?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

No offence but that's mental.

[TheDonis]

 

You didn't butt in and good input. At Liverpool I know he changed the team all the time, was he always changing the pattern aswell, even after good results ?

 

Re rotation, there were two schools of thought on it among LFC fans. One, that it motivates players because they know they'll be involved. The other that it demotivates them because no matter how well they play they might end up bring rotated. For me, it worked. So often we finished the season so strong. But then you get the pang that there were a few too many missed opportunities earlier on. But then we might have won those games early season and run out of steam.... I do think his methods did sometimes jar with some 'superstar' footballers. But with a group of players hungry to achieve, like you should have, they should work a treat. No one should doubt him, given his experience. No one is going to turn around and say 'But Ancelloti said this' and 'Mourinho did this' as has been the case with him elsewhere. And, more importantly, he makes players better, which intelligent players will recognise. So many coaches make players worse or they don't improve. Not Rafa. Though he can be brutal as fuck when it comes to binning players off.

 

As for the pattern, it stays the same. (but there is pattern within patterns. There's the famous story of when Ranieri took over at Valencia from him, and he told them to 'defend like Benitez told you.' One of the defenders said, 'But we had five different ways of defending.') But the 4-2-3-1 is sacrosanct (though he'll say with good reason, there are variations within that system). Frustrating as fuck for some who want two strikers up top, but it won't happen. There might be two strikers on the pitch but one will be wide. One wide man will be a quick attacking player, the other will be someone like Dirk Kuyt, out of position nominally, but works his nuts off for the team, tracks back, gets goals. There'll be an unflashy holding mid next to someone who can hit passes.  People will clamour for a change sand say 'Put out our best team, forget about how our oppo play and smash them.' Rafa will not do that. He will stick to his system, press high up the pitch, control the game. He hates it when they lose control.

 

 

 

[Mole_Toonfan]

Wait he's been criticised?  Jesus Christ I'm glad I stayed out of the match day thread.

[Tubestationatmidnight]

Thanks for that. A good read and we can relate to most of that already.

[madras]

 

You didn't butt in and good input. At Liverpool I know he changed the team all the time, was he always changing the pattern aswell, even after good results ?

 

Re rotation, there were two schools of thought on it among LFC fans. One, that it motivates players because they know they'll be involved. The other that it demotivates them because no matter how well they play they might end up bring rotated. For me, it worked. So often we finished the season so strong. But then you get the pang that there were a few too many missed opportunities earlier on. But then we might have won those games early season and run out of steam.... I do think his methods did sometimes jar with some 'superstar' footballers. But with a group of players hungry to achieve, like you should have, they should work a treat. No one should doubt him, given his experience. No one is going to turn around and say 'But Ancelloti said this' and 'Mourinho did this' as has been the case with him elsewhere. And, more importantly, he makes players better, which intelligent players will recognise. So many coaches make players worse or they don't improve. Not Rafa. Though he can be brutal as f*** when it comes to binning players off.

 

As for the pattern, it stays the same. (but there is pattern within patterns. There's the famous story of when Ranieri took over at Valencia from him, and he told them to 'defend like Benitez told you.' One of the defenders said, 'But we had five different ways of defending.') But the 4-2-3-1 is sacrosanct (though he'll say with good reason, there are variations within that system). Frustrating as f*** for some who want two strikers up top, but it won't happen. There might be two strikers on the pitch but one will be wide. One wide man will be a quick attacking player, the other will be someone like Dirk Kuyt, out of position nominally, but works his nuts off for the team, tracks back, gets goals. There'll be an unflashy holding mid next to someone who can hit passes.  People will clamour for a change sand say 'Put out our best team, forget about how our oppo play and smash them.' Rafa will not do that. He will stick to his system, press high up the pitch, control the game. He hates it when they lose control.

 

 

 

The good bits I like, the bad bits I'd like to think he'd learn from and adapt (honestly thought that the last two games before today when we didn't go 4-2-3-1).

[Guest ElCid]

The bottom line is that we are by far the biggest club in the Championship, support, revenue, the lot. We have also just bought more players and spent more money than all of our competitors. We should walk this league, certainly most people on here seem to think so, we have the biggest squad, most of the best players and Rafa Benitez as Manager.

 

And yet we've lost 3 games including 2 at home already, we look fragile if we go behind, nobody including the players has any idea who will be playing in the next game, we have no idea of what are best starting 11 are, and we look no more likely to be automatically promoted than Huddersfield or Norwich. So what's up? Teething problems or something much more worrying?

 

Next few games may give an indication - 3 defeats out of 8 is not good and I thought we had got out of rut from the start of the season but today was shockingly bad and a total repeat of the Huddersfield game. Bit worrying that if we go a goal behind we totally struggle. Thought Rafa got his team selection and tactics totally wrong today but he will know that and we are still right up there currently so no need to panic.

 

Dummett must be dropped as not only is he poor defensively but his ball distribution is just total w*** and all he can do is hoof it up field. Shelvey was playing far too deep today and needs to be doing things further up the field his passing was pretty poor today also apart from the odd ball. Hayden was hardly in their box all game which was surprising as he has in his previous games. Gayle cannot play as a lone striker and neither can Perez as the ball will just keep coming back. We had the warning side at around the 10 minute mark and didn't pay heed and step up our game. The first goal was a clamity of errors and the second not much better either and both should have been avoided easily. Ritchie for me is obviously a good player especially at this level but he certainly hasn't been 'stand out' so far either as his song indicates. Diame in the main has been pretty poor so far.

 

As I said no need to panic though as we are still well placed but judging on our performances so for it's certainly not going to be a doddle going up either and the next 2 games will give a good indication on whether there are more than just a few voices of concern or not.

[Guest ElCid]

You didn't butt in and good input. At Liverpool I know he changed the team all the time, was he always changing the pattern aswell, even after good results ?

 

 

Re rotation, there were two schools of thought on it among LFC fans. One, that it motivates players because they know they'll be involved. The other that it demotivates them because no matter how well they play they might end up bring rotated. For me, it worked. So often we finished the season so strong. But then you get the pang that there were a few too many missed opportunities earlier on. But then we might have won those games early season and run out of steam.... I do think his methods did sometimes jar with some 'superstar' footballers. But with a group of players hungry to achieve, like you should have, they should work a treat. No one should doubt him, given his experience. No one is going to turn around and say 'But Ancelloti said this' and 'Mourinho did this' as has been the case with him elsewhere. And, more importantly, he makes players better, which intelligent players will recognise. So many coaches make players worse or they don't improve. Not Rafa. Though he can be brutal as f*** when it comes to binning players off.

 

As for the pattern, it stays the same. (but there is pattern within patterns. There's the famous story of when Ranieri took over at Valencia from him, and he told them to 'defend like Benitez told you.' One of the defenders said, 'But we had five different ways of defending.') But the 4-2-3-1 is sacrosanct (though he'll say with good reason, there are variations within that system). Frustrating as f*** for some who want two strikers up top, but it won't happen. There might be two strikers on the pitch but one will be wide. One wide man will be a quick attacking player, the other will be someone like Dirk Kuyt, out of position nominally, but works his nuts off for the team, tracks back, gets goals. There'll be an unflashy holding mid next to someone who can hit passes.  People will clamour for a change sand say 'Put out our best team, forget about how our oppo play and smash them.' Rafa will not do that. He will stick to his system, press high up the pitch, control the game. He hates it when they lose control.

 

 

 

The good bits I like, the bad bits I'd like to think he'd learn from and adapt (honestly thought that the last two games before today when we didn't go 4-2-3-1).

 

One of the big problems today we didn't do that at all and it was Wolves who were pressing us all game.

[tmonkey]

I think we all knew what we were getting with Rafa. He's from the same school of thought as the likes of Mourinho, Allardyce and dare I say it, Pardew, in that he's a defensive minded manager whose cautious nature means he won't ever let a free flowing attacking first team "pick itself" every week like a Ferguson, Wenger or Keegan would. Goes without saying though that like Mourinho he's in the top tier bracket of that type of manager, and is genuinely good at what he does, unlike incompetent frauds like Pardew.

 

After a decade of having shit or useless managers in the dugout, I'm happy with having the type of manager Rafa is knowing that he's a genuinely good/great one in that category (and delighted that we have Rafa himself, in the Championship no less - the man is a legend for even considering taking us on). I'll accept that because of his approach we're going to have quite a few games like this for as long as he's here - games where he ought to pick an all-out attacking lineup that takes the game to the opposition, but instead because of his negative mindset he picks a team that aims to nullify the opposition first and foremost (almost like he's giving far too much respect to the opponent). It's always going to be frustrating now and again, especially having seen first hand how liberating that Keegan era "just be yourself" mentality can be, but this'll be balanced out by us having plenty of games where the cautious/counter mentality works well, complemented by the terrific work Rafa is doing off the pitch in building a real foundation and philosophy which should reap good rewards over time.

[Tubestationatmidnight]

I think we all knew what we were getting with Rafa. He's from the same school of thought as the likes of Mourinho, Allardyce and dare I say it, Pardew, in that he's a defensive minded manager whose cautious nature means he won't ever let a free flowing attacking first team "pick itself" every week like a Ferguson, Wenger or Keegan would. Goes without saying though that like Mourinho he's in the top tier bracket of that type of manager, and is genuinely good at what he does, unlike incompetent frauds like Pardew.

 

After a decade of having s*** or useless managers in the dugout, I'm happy with having the type of manager Rafa is knowing that he's a genuinely good/great one in that category (and delighted that we have Rafa himself, in the Championship no less - the man is a legend for even considering taking us on). I'll accept that because of his approach we're going to have quite a few games like this for as long as he's here - games where he ought to pick an all-out attacking lineup that takes the game to the opposition, but instead because of his negative mindset he picks a team that aims to nullify the opposition first and foremost (almost like he's giving far too much respect to the opponent). It's always going to be frustrating now and again, especially having seen first hand how liberating that Keegan era "just be yourself" mentality can be, but this'll be balanced out by us having plenty of games where the cautious/counter mentality works well, complemented by the terrific work Rafa is doing off the pitch in building a real foundation and philosophy which should reap good rewards over time.

 

?

[TheDonis]

Bit surprised reading about today's match that you didn't respond after going behind. Rafa'a teams have always fought hard, and show genuine character when behind (one of the major contrasts between him and Houllier - we rarely came back under Houllier. We did it all the time under Rafa). He also has the knack of making substitutions that work.

 

I would never say he's negative. He values balance. It's his mantra. When he gets it right you can piss all over teams and look the bollocks.

 

 

[madras]

Bit surprised reading about today's match that you didn't respond after going behind. Rafa'a teams have always fought hard, and show genuine character when behind (one of the major contrasts between him and Houllier - we rarely came back under Houllier. We did it all the time under Rafa). He also has the knack of making substitutions that work.

 

I would never say he's negative. He values balance. It's his mantra. When he gets it right you can p*ss all over teams and look the bollocks.

 

 

Sometimes that means you picked the wrong starting 11.

 

 

I'm sounding horribly negative about him and I don't mean to and I do think he'll get it right but he cost me £30 in bets and £270 in winnings today.

[louistoon]

Bit surprised reading about today's match that you didn't respond after going behind. Rafa'a teams have always fought hard, and show genuine character when behind (one of the major contrasts between him and Houllier - we rarely came back under Houllier. We did it all the time under Rafa). He also has the knack of making substitutions that work.

 

I would never say he's negative. He values balance. It's his mantra. When he gets it right you can p*ss all over teams and look the bollocks.

 

This is a thing with Newcastle in general though we have been like this for years and it takes time to change a losing mentality. I think in a lot of ways it is difficult to compare previous rafa teams to Newcastle, as this is an entirely different challenge to anything he's had since before Valencia. True we should be the best team in this league, but instead of taking control of a functioning team in the top half of the league we're a newly relegated team suffering after years of mismanagement. Add to that a complete squad overhall and its going to take time to get to the level Rafa's teams usually play at.

 

There are going to be mistakes and it will take a degree of experimentation to find out who should be playing where.

 

 

[TheDonis]

Bit surprised reading about today's match that you didn't respond after going behind. Rafa'a teams have always fought hard, and show genuine character when behind (one of the major contrasts between him and Houllier - we rarely came back under Houllier. We did it all the time under Rafa). He also has the knack of making substitutions that work.

 

I would never say he's negative. He values balance. It's his mantra. When he gets it right you can p*ss all over teams and look the bollocks.

 

 

Sometimes that means you picked the wrong starting 11.

 

 

I'm sounding horribly negative about him and I don't mean to and I do think he'll get it right but he cost me £30 in bets and £270 in winnings today.

 

Not really. Sometimes you miss chances, have some bad luck or the opposition play well. In which case you need to change it. Rafa does that well (though never before the 60th minute).

 

I hope I haven't given a negative impression of him. He's a genius. A smashing bloke and a football man to his boots. I bloody love him. I wouldn't be posting her if I didn't.... He will need a leader or too on the pitch to make it really really work, but you have a fucking brilliant manager.

[TRon]

Well, Bobby trusted him. But that isn't the point, none of the players find out his team until 2 hours or less before KO.

 

It's just the way he is, anyway. It ties in with the rest of his style.

 

IMO, the longer he has with the squad, the less of an issue this will become. He wants all the squad to be able to play together interchangeably with similar effectiveness and cohesity. This will be shown up at its weakest early in his tenure, as fringe players get used more than they did before, and 'first teamers' rotated more. Everyone's on edge as it will be a big change, especially for our squad.

 

Yeah this is spot on IMO. There are inevitably going to be few hiccups with the rotation system, but the players that can't be trusted will eventually be weeded out and by the end of it we'll have a much stronger squad that will have bought into his philosophies.

[joeyt]

To be fair,  we've came back from losing positions against Sunderland, Man City and Liverpool under Rafa to gain a point ,  which we wouldn't have done under some of the previous managers we've had

 

[madras]

Bit surprised reading about today's match that you didn't respond after going behind. Rafa'a teams have always fought hard, and show genuine character when behind (one of the major contrasts between him and Houllier - we rarely came back under Houllier. We did it all the time under Rafa). He also has the knack of making substitutions that work.

 

I would never say he's negative. He values balance. It's his mantra. When he gets it right you can p*ss all over teams and look the bollocks.

 

 

Sometimes that means you picked the wrong starting 11.

 

 

I'm sounding horribly negative about him and I don't mean to and I do think he'll get it right but he cost me £30 in bets and £270 in winnings today.

 

Not really. Sometimes you miss chances, have some bad luck or the opposition play well. In which case you need to change it. Rafa does that well (though never before the 60th minute).

 

I hope I haven't given a negative impression of him. He's a genius. A smashing bloke and a football man to his boots. I bloody love him. I wouldn't be posting her if I didn't.... He will need a leader or too on the pitch to make it really really work, but you have a f***ing brilliant manager.

Seems more like an honest and open opinion and thanks for it

[TheDonis]

To be fair,  we've came back from losing positions against Sunderland, Man City and Liverpool under Rafa to gain a point ,  which we wouldn't have done under some of the previous managers we've had

 

I remember that Liverpool game  Genuinely thought you'd stay up after seeing that. But to reset and have Rafa refresh and rejuvenate the whole club might be a blessing that has huge benefits for your future. I can't think of a better man or manager to entrust with rebuilding a club, and that includes its mindset as well as its staff.

[TRon]

quote author=TheDonis link=topic=97780.msg6140785#msg6140785 date=1474150130

You didn't butt in and good input. At Liverpool I know he changed the team all the time, was he always changing the pattern aswell, even after good results ?

 

 

Re rotation, there were two schools of thought on it among LFC fans. One, that it motivates players because they know they'll be involved. The other that it demotivates them because no matter how well they play they might end up bring rotated. For me, it worked. So often we finished the season so strong. But then you get the pang that there were a few too many missed opportunities earlier on. But then we might have won those games early season and run out of steam.... I do think his methods did sometimes jar with some 'superstar' footballers. But with a group of players hungry to achieve, like you should have, they should work a treat. No one should doubt him, given his experience. No one is going to turn around and say 'But Ancelloti said this' and 'Mourinho did this' as has been the case with him elsewhere. And, more importantly, he makes players better, which intelligent players will recognise. So many coaches make players worse or they don't improve. Not Rafa. Though he can be brutal as fuck when it comes to binning players off.

 

As for the pattern, it stays the same. (but there is pattern within patterns. There's the famous story of when Ranieri took over at Valencia from him, and he told them to 'defend like Benitez told you.' One of the defenders said, 'But we had five different ways of defending.') But the 4-2-3-1 is sacrosanct (though he'll say with good reason, there are variations within that system). Frustrating as fuck for some who want two strikers up top, but it won't happen. There might be two strikers on the pitch but one will be wide. One wide man will be a quick attacking player, the other will be someone like Dirk Kuyt, out of position nominally, but works his nuts off for the team, tracks back, gets goals. There'll be an unflashy holding mid next to someone who can hit passes.  People will clamour for a change sand say 'Put out our best team, forget about how our oppo play and smash them.' Rafa will not do that. He will stick to his system, press high up the pitch, control the game. He hates it when they lose control.

 

 

 

That all makes perfect sense when you are playing against top teams in the CL, but do we really need to be cautious against struggling championship sides?

 

 

[Deuce]

The swings from him being a genius to his tactics and general philosophies on the game being seriously questioned and back again from match to match are both hilarious and quite sad. Not just in this thread, I mean across the forum. Signings, players, formations, the rotation policy; everything.

 

By all accounts we were just as shit today as we were excellent on Tuesday. It's absolutely symptomatic of a team and entire fucking organisation that's still finding its feet with a revolutionised squad under a brand new manager and coaching staff, and an apparent complete change in approach to running a football club. This after literally years and years of deliberate lack of investment, almost 100% lack of ambition and suitably chronic underachievement. It's no coincidence IMO that we've not drawn any games so far. Even when we went down last time things were more stable than they were before Benitez came in for fuck's sake.

 

Obviously nobody is beyond criticism when it's due but though I'm still very confident of promotion, turning this wretched ship around is going to take longer than nine matches.

 

[Foluwashola]

The swings from him being a genius to his tactics and general philosophies on the game being seriously questioned and back again from match to match are both hilarious and quite sad. Not just in this thread, I mean across the forum. Signings, players, formations, the rotation policy; everything.

 

By all accounts we were just as shit today as we were excellent on Tuesday. It's absolutely symptomatic of a team and entire fucking organisation that's still finding its feet with a revolutionised squad under a brand new manager and coaching staff, and an apparent complete change in approach to running a football club. This after literally years and years of deliberate lack of investment, almost 100% lack of ambition and suitably chronic underachievement. It's no coincidence IMO that we've not drawn any games so far. Even when we went down last time things were more stable than they were before Benitez came in for fuck's sake.

 

Obviously nobody is beyond criticism when it's due but though I'm still very confident of promotion, turning this wretched ship around is going to take longer than nine matches.

 

No proper fan questions a thing. We're 3rd in the league, will gan up with ease.

[TheDonis]

quote author=TheDonis link=topic=97780.msg6140785#msg6140785 date=1474150130

You didn't butt in and good input. At Liverpool I know he changed the team all the time, was he always changing the pattern aswell, even after good results ?

 

 

Re rotation, there were two schools of thought on it among LFC fans. One, that it motivates players because they know they'll be involved. The other that it demotivates them because no matter how well they play they might end up bring rotated. For me, it worked. So often we finished the season so strong. But then you get the pang that there were a few too many missed opportunities earlier on. But then we might have won those games early season and run out of steam.... I do think his methods did sometimes jar with some 'superstar' footballers. But with a group of players hungry to achieve, like you should have, they should work a treat. No one should doubt him, given his experience. No one is going to turn around and say 'But Ancelloti said this' and 'Mourinho did this' as has been the case with him elsewhere. And, more importantly, he makes players better, which intelligent players will recognise. So many coaches make players worse or they don't improve. Not Rafa. Though he can be brutal as f*** when it comes to binning players off.

 

As for the pattern, it stays the same. (but there is pattern within patterns. There's the famous story of when Ranieri took over at Valencia from him, and he told them to 'defend like Benitez told you.' One of the defenders said, 'But we had five different ways of defending.') But the 4-2-3-1 is sacrosanct (though he'll say with good reason, there are variations within that system). Frustrating as f*** for some who want two strikers up top, but it won't happen. There might be two strikers on the pitch but one will be wide. One wide man will be a quick attacking player, the other will be someone like Dirk Kuyt, out of position nominally, but works his nuts off for the team, tracks back, gets goals. There'll be an unflashy holding mid next to someone who can hit passes.  People will clamour for a change sand say 'Put out our best team, forget about how our oppo play and smash them.' Rafa will not do that. He will stick to his system, press high up the pitch, control the game. He hates it when they lose control.

 

 

 

That all makes perfect sense when you are playing against top teams in the CL, but do we really need to be cautious against struggling championship sides?

 

Maybe not. But Rafa will always prepare with the opposition in mind.

 

I do sense him mellowing and changing a bit. He seems a bit more of the patrician these days, rather than the aloof technocrat. Arms around players,  pats and hugs and all that. Which he needed to do more given the namby pamby etc

 

One last Rafa story before I go. For me it sums him up. I went to see us play West Ham. Shit ground and shit fans and I was sitting in the middle of them. We battered them but couldn't score. In injury time they broke away and Carra brought down their guy in the box with a ludicrous challenge. They scored the peno. It was a fuck of a nut punch and you could see the players deflate. But rather than sit on his bench spewing and wait for the whistle, which was coming as soon as we kicked off, Rafa walked out of the dug out and stood at the side of the pitch. It sounds like nothing but it showed me what balls he had - 40,000 blokes in leather jackets calling him a fat wanker. But more than that - how he wasn't going to hide. The message was - keep your chin up, we'll have these next time. And we almost certainly did.