Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[Dave]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

[mrmojorisin75]

There's some nice spells and moves often IMO but we just don't have the quality to finish.

In a nutshell. And as I said elsewhere yesterday people use language like we 'allowed' them to do stuff second half. There are two teams in every game and we're certainly not good enough to contain any team for 90 minutes.

[Guest reefatoon]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

 

Just going off what I have seen with us Dave. Yes, we needed promotion at the first attemp last season, but our team/squad was so much more superior to other teams coming here, yet that’s the way we played (and we lost/drawn far too many games at home for a championship winning team. That’s why I was thinking it is his way of playing, because that’s all I have seen. It’s just what football is like now, so much more importance in not getting beat and teams set up accordingly. Other words, football is dull as fuck nowadays.

[STM]

I'm still confident it's a temporary solution given the players we have and the objective for this season.

 

We've gone back to the tactics that got us results early on in the season. It worked then and it's working now, even if it doesn't always feel like it.

 

Agreed. It's not pretty but its the only chance we have. Games are going to be tight and we aren't going to batter teams.

[Altamullan]

I thought that last season some over ‘restricted’ defensive set-ups at home almost cost us the Championship title. This season I fear the same may cost us Premier League survival. If Rafa was playing pontoon, I reckon he would almost always stick rather than twist. Was always going to be this way, and whilst I would always opt for Keegan (or Robson) over Benetiz style wise (all have/had great values and are admirable men, in their own right) I am not even complaining. He is how he is. I do wish we would just really go for it at times, seek to put the opposition under as much pressure as possible; have more s*** or bust last 20 minutes. Surely we had a decent chance of beating these today with a Murphy (or Aarons) chucked on and ‘a rip them to bits’ instruction passed to the whole team.

 

Who the f*** are Murphy and Aarons? If they are the players you are hanging your hat on with a s*** or bust attitude, then I'm going to stick with the take a point approach tbh.

They are at present, along with Atsu, the best options we have for running at the opposition, putting them on the back foot and reclaiming the home advantage which I have seen unsettle even experienced internationals (e.g. can recall Beckham seeming to physically recoil from the wall of noise coming from the crowd, Barton then megged him, to add insult to injury). Playing safe is possibly the best bet, but fuck man we have to win games like yesterday if we are going to stay-up. 

[Heron]

I thought yesterday was somewhat of a must win, it has to be said. However, if we'd drawn at Swansea and beat them at home I'd have been happy, so we've just done it in reverse.

[Altamullan]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

Purely from memory, his Liverpool side always seemed very 'methodical'. They were effective, had some great players, but don't recall enjoying watching them. My second reaction to Rafa coming here was a kind of resignation that we were going to see some pretty dire stuff at times. First reaction was pure delight mind!

[Greg]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

 

Just going off what I have seen with us Dave. Yes, we needed promotion at the first attemp last season, but our team/squad was so much more superior to other teams coming here,yet that’s the way we played (and we lost/drawn far too many games at home for a championship winning team. That’s why I was thinking it is his way of playing, because that’s all I have seen. It’s just what football is like now, so much more importance in not getting beat and teams set up accordingly. Other words, football is dull as f*** nowadays.

 

You know - it really wasn’t - not all of them. And it was made ever more difficult by every single team treating it like their cup final.

 

[mrmojorisin75]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

Purely from memory, his Liverpool side always seemed very 'methodical'. They were effective, had some great players, but don't recall enjoying watching them. My second reaction to Rafa coming here was a kind of resignation that we were going to see some pretty dire stuff at times. First reaction was pure delight mind!

Yeah I always thought similar with him at Liverpool, considered him a very dour manager in style. That said watching him with us over the last two years I can personally see how he plans things out, or at least my interpretation of it, which is essentially that you get everyone knowing the system and their roles etc. which will be functional. When you get the opportunity to upgrade positions the football itself will naturally become more expansive.

 

I mean if you keep things the same but get a top class 9 in and a really good winger instead of Ritchie then that would instantly give us more threat that would boost our own players behind them and make the opposition worry more.

 

Then get a proper LB who can get up and down and use the ball well, plus a CM capable of playing a PL game instead of Shelvey or Diame to start holding the ball better and dictating play a bit.

 

Nothing about the system ever changes but better players will allow it to naturally develop and become more expansive.

 

That's how I see it like, might be total bullshit and somewhat simplistic to say better players will make us better but it's a different thing to saying that for Pardew. There's a plan and he's being prevented from executing it basically.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Liverpool were a hard pressing, high tempo team that got at teams and were often relentless without being overly ambitious or gung ho. They were hard to beat and could beat anyone on their day and often did. My LFC supporting mate said although they were involved in some funny old games and high scoring games, there was little room for free flowing off the cuff attacking football. It usually came in Cup games during extra time or when they were chasing a game. Our football is shit, but it’s miles better than what Pardew served up for example. Rafa is far too rigid and it’s not my kind of football. I dislike it intensely at times. It’s weird because at Valencia it was all about possession, he even wrote a coaching thesis on possession football and the benefits of just keeping the ball even without doing anything with it. I remember his Valencia side toying with Liverpool in the way Barca used to or City do today, I’m sure that day that’s when Liverpool decided he was a potential future manager of theirs.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I used to have that thesis or document, it was a great read and Rafa is clearly a student of the game, but seems set in his ways these days and hasn’t really evolved.

 

From listening to former top players, I get the impression they are so focused, so machine like and so clinical when it comes to decision making, it’s easier for top players to do what Rafa wants than mediocre players who may want to do it and buy into it all, but just lack the switched on, focused, machine like mentality even if they have the ability. Shelvey struggles for example.

 

It does wear a player down eventually though and can burn them out. Mourinho is very similar.

 

Compare that to someone like Keegan who lets a player basically play to their strengths and encourages them to express themselves, to enjoy themselves and play with freedom.

 

What I do see when I watch us play is a solid shape off the ball, a well drilled side defensively. We ship goals because we lack quality really. Our ‘keepers are championship standard for example. Give Pardew this team and defensively we’d ship in a record number of goals week in week out.

 

It’s obvious if you give Rafa better players we will be a much better team and play much better. Forget exciting attacking football though, it’s not going to happen and flair players won’t feature in a Rafa team.

[mighty__mag]

Sorry like... But we should have been 3 up by half time. Lack of a quality striker cost us. Anything else is just stupid. Bored to f***ing tears of people following the mantra that if a team is doing bad it must be the managers fault. Mindless f*** spackers following the Sky Sports / Premier League mantra. Have a word with yourselves man. Tits.

 

Agreed. But we didn’t and as such it was 0-0 at half-time. What we did second half was allow a totally awful Swansea side to take the lead, dominate possession and basically have the second half. When you are dominant and creating chances you keep going, keep knocking on that door, eventually one will go in. We just didn’t turn up second half, a complete contras to the first half.

 

Again there is no excuse for that.

 

If we go in 2-0 up then you can relax etc. Go in 0-0 despite having the best chances and unlucky not to lead and surely you keep going. But oh no, not Rafa at home. Negative, boring, counter productive and total nonsense. This kind of ‘result’ can send you down. Swansea will draw huge confidence from this, for us it’s another game in the league at home we’ve failed to win.

 

It’s definately a ‘tactic’ of the manager because he was constantly instructing certain players to not get too far forward, to hold a line, to drop back and when the captain tells the keeper not to release the ball early and then bollocks him for even thinking about it, despite a break on and the crowd pushing for an early release...

 

It’s like the manager is happy just not to lose at home.

 

Me, I don’t get it or the tactics, it’s s*** and costing us big time. Swansea were there for the taking and one of the worst sides I’ve seen at home, yet second half they bossed it. First half only one winner and comfortably so, but only if we kept playing in the same vein...

 

Second half. It was like a different team, a different game.

I'll be honest. I always appreciate your opinion because I have this sense that you come from a similar footballing background to me, and I see your point. For me, 1st half we piled pressure and should have been 2up at least. 2nd half, we tried to let them come on so it would expose them on the counter. Given the results away from home that isn't stupid, but we paid the cost. At 1-1 we should have went hell for leather and instead we cautiously pressed. It was frustrating, but we've taken 4 points from Swansea this season which is good. All being said. We didn't win today because of a lack in quality (again) and not Benitez. He isn't void of criticism but after the last ten years of Ashley this probably the first team you can say you like and are proud of for a decade (at least).

 

Naa prefered our last champo side that gained promotion over this.

 

And our side with Demba ba Tiote Cabaye etc. Although managed by a cock end.

 

Are you feeling alright?

There's a difference. I enjoyed them. They did well. But we are now something to be proud of. Imagine if Benitez had that same crop of players man...

 

Yes but if we are proud of them why if we are not blaming Rafa are we blaming them instead. Its constantly mentioned this is the worst side in years, only again today the worst in the league by some.

 

Im not really proud of this side or much of a fan of the football, its dull boring s***, but im not daft enough to not understand Benitez trophy haul speaks for itself, if we lose Benitez we will never get a decorated manager again for a good while. But all the same there has been games where collectively Rafa has been as much at fault as the players. Benitez cant really be blamed for Dwight Gayle being a poor header of a football and missing good opportunities, he could be blamed for crap and poorly timed subs though.

 

I hope he gets to deliver his true ambitions with us and is backed. But with the fat t*** still here this will be another window where he might just not be thick skinned enough to deal with more p*ss taking from the hierarchy.

I think that his dull, methodical approach could be the difference between us staying up or enjoying one more game with a win that's all. 4 draws are better than 1 wins nd 3 losses. It's that sorta craic... Even though what I have said is over simplistic. FWIW I agree with the rest of your post. He isn't blameless but he is the smallest contributory factor.

 

Any points are good points. I agree with all sides of the debates when it comes to us, thats why I can see with some members arguments that they are unhappy with our hopeless approach at home, and our cautious style, instead of bossing the whole game at home when you know a side is there for the taking.

 

I love hearing the St James roar on motd when we go at sides and attack, its what most of us were attracted to in the first place. But sadly its missing at home atm because we are not going with that approach.

 

[emoji1303]

I appreciate your sentiment. However, on the subject of fans, it's the cat we have 26,000 there wanting to be entertained and sighing / booing at every opportunity that I'd also killing us. For every roar there's equal discontent. We knew where we'd be pre season yet some only remember the last pass. We're not alone like but there's no such thing as fans these days. Not in the UK. Just customers. Speaking in the majority of course.

 

I know what you mean about some of our fans mind. Loads near me offer absolutely nothing in terms of support, but love to get on the team's back at every given opportunity, when they can be bothered to look up from their phones that is.

The old goat in front of me spends the entire game sighing and shaking his head, I've had to bite my tongue as I'm there with my son, but he's getting right on my tits.

 

That is so true 

 

I once sat at the lower end of LVL 7. There's a big guy with a walking stick an old fella, I remember him because of two things, one was he blocked my view the entire game,being a very wide fella the other he sits infront of the barrier rail and just berates all the players shouts everything so everyone can receive it, and bangs his stick against the rail and boots the bottom of it.

 

He's a right old nutter.

[Kasper]

I'd love to see what would happen if Rafa would encourage this lot to "express themselves"

 

Well we all know it'd be a massacre, and not the good kind. What Rafa is doing right now is absolutely spot on and the only realistic way for us to survive.

 

All these cries for attacking football or "going for it" really frustrate me. We aren't good enough to take care of the ball. We make a lot of easy mistakes controlling the ball or passing the ball. If lose your shape and make that mistake in transition several times a match then you're always looking like conceding. The shape and rigidness is what's keeping us a live and covering for those mistakes.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

You have to remember tens of thousands of match day going fans only see us from going, they aren’t on forums, social media or maybe don’t even watch much footy outside of us so they don’t over analyse things or see things from many perspectives. If they see a player making a mistake they will have a go. I think in general, especially this season, fans by and large have been great and you cannot blame anyone for the odd dissent or show of frustration. It’s the numpties that will slag Lascelles off and call him shit for example if he makes a mistake. Thankfully they appear to be in the minority.

[Heron]

You have to remember tens of thousands of match day going fans only see us from going, they aren’t on forums, social media or maybe don’t even watch much footy outside of us so they don’t over analyse things or see things from many perspectives. If they see a player making a mistake they will have a go. I think in general, especially this season, fans by and large have been great and you cannot blame anyone for the odd dissent or show of frustration. It’s the numpties that will slag Lascelles off and call him shit for example if he makes a mistake. Thankfully they appear to be in the minority.

Aye. That's a fair point like. Booing the team off too is just idiotic. We all get pissed off and frustrated and kick off but to say people are shit or boo them off is just pointless, when they're giving it their all.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I'd love to see what would happen if Rafa would encourage this lot to "express themselves"

 

Well we all know it'd be a massacre, and not the good kind. What Rafa is doing right now is absolutely spot on and the only realistic way for us to survive.

 

All these cries for attacking football or "going for it" really frustrate me. We aren't good enough to take care of the ball. We make a lot of easy mistakes controlling the ball or passing the ball. If lose your shape and make that mistake in transition several times a match then you're always looking like conceding. The shape and rigidness is what's keeping us a live and covering for those mistakes.

 

There is going for it and going gun ho. No one expects us to go all out attack. But there should be a balance. Second half we literally dropped back and conceded territory, possession and the game to them and when we did equalise the game was begging out for us to go back at them and bury them and we didn’t.

 

I’m of the opinion that someone like Hughton for example would have us doing just as well (or bad whatever way you want to look at it) with the same players, but we’d play better football and not be so negative, especially at home.

 

Now that’s not me saying I’d swap Rafa for Hughton before anyone starts or that I think Rafa is shit. I just don’t buy into this whole we have to play this way because the players are crap.

 

First half we did everything but score. Why couldn’t we play the same way in the second half? You cannot say because we don’t have the players or if we did we’d get beat. We actually conceded and looked like losing by playing the opposite to how we played in the first half. We were not all out attacking or gung ho on the first half, we were on the front foot though and caused them problems and again, did everything but score.

 

Such tactics have cost us at home dearly and if we go down, we can look at that as one of the main reasons.

[Kasper]

I'd love to see what would happen if Rafa would encourage this lot to "express themselves"

 

Well we all know it'd be a massacre, and not the good kind. What Rafa is doing right now is absolutely spot on and the only realistic way for us to survive.

 

All these cries for attacking football or "going for it" really frustrate me. We aren't good enough to take care of the ball. We make a lot of easy mistakes controlling the ball or passing the ball. If lose your shape and make that mistake in transition several times a match then you're always looking like conceding. The shape and rigidness is what's keeping us a live and covering for those mistakes.

 

There is going for it and going gun ho. No one expects us to go all out attack. But there should be a balance. Second half we literally dropped back and conceded territory, possession and the game to them and when we did equalise the game was begging out for us to go back at them and bury them and we didn’t.

 

I’m of the opinion that someone like Hughton for example would have us doing just as well (or bad whatever way you want to look at it) with the same players, but we’d play better football and not be so negative, especially at home.

 

Now that’s not me saying I’d swap Rafa for Hughton before anyone starts or that I think Rafa is shit. I just don’t buy into this whole we have to play this way because the players are crap.

 

First half we did everything but score. Why couldn’t we play the same way in the second half? You cannot say because we don’t have the players or if we did we’d get beat. We actually conceded and looked like losing by playing the opposite to how we played in the first half. We were not all out attacking or gung ho on the first half, we were on the front foot though and caused them problems and again, did everything but score.

 

Such tactics have cost us at home dearly and if we go down, we can look at that as one of the main reasons.

 

Like someone just said in the match thread: Do you think Newcastle is alone on the pitch? There's this other team there who can change things and improve their game.

 

We were dropping back first half as well. It was clearly a plan to get some space behind their defense and use our fast players to get there when we won the ball. Maybe they changed something that made it harder for us. I don't know. But clearly it isnt as simple as "why couldnt the second half be like the first".

[STM]

HTT we dont have the capability of opening up against teams. It's nothing to do with tactics whatsoever.

 

You can't attack more without defending less IMO and in this scenario we can't afford to play any more expansive.

 

One of my big gripes about the criticism of Rafa after the city game, was the idea that we were deliberately conceeding possesion against them, as apposed to the reality, which was that we couldn't get the ball of them.

[mighty__mag]

You have to remember tens of thousands of match day going fans only see us from going, they aren’t on forums, social media or maybe don’t even watch much footy outside of us so they don’t over analyse things or see things from many perspectives. If they see a player making a mistake they will have a go. I think in general, especially this season, fans by and large have been great and you cannot blame anyone for the odd dissent or show of frustration. It’s the numpties that will slag Lascelles off and call him shit for example if he makes a mistake. Thankfully they appear to be in the minority.

Aye. That's a fair point like. Booing the team off too is just idiotic. We all get pissed off and frustrated and kick off but to say people are shit or boo them off is just pointless, when they're giving it their all.

 

That can sometimes be their only call collectively to say to the players try harder, at the end of 90 mins its because they are obviously pissed they gave their weekend up and paid for a poor performance, but at half time it can work in the fans favour if the players buck up and come out in the second half and respond.

 

I know how I would respond to boos as a player. But it also has a bad effect on some sensitive types, I guess thats down to Raffa and Jamaal to bring them together. Lascelles keeps mentioning although we might not see it, theyre a tight group.

[Guest neesy111]

I think we could had opened up vs Swansea mind.  Their first 11 was worse than ours on paper, probably the only time that's happened this season.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I'd love to see what would happen if Rafa would encourage this lot to "express themselves"

 

Well we all know it'd be a massacre, and not the good kind. What Rafa is doing right now is absolutely spot on and the only realistic way for us to survive.

 

All these cries for attacking football or "going for it" really frustrate me. We aren't good enough to take care of the ball. We make a lot of easy mistakes controlling the ball or passing the ball. If lose your shape and make that mistake in transition several times a match then you're always looking like conceding. The shape and rigidness is what's keeping us a live and covering for those mistakes.

 

There is going for it and going gun ho. No one expects us to go all out attack. But there should be a balance. Second half we literally dropped back and conceded territory, possession and the game to them and when we did equalise the game was begging out for us to go back at them and bury them and we didn’t.

 

I’m of the opinion that someone like Hughton for example would have us doing just as well (or bad whatever way you want to look at it) with the same players, but we’d play better football and not be so negative, especially at home.

 

Now that’s not me saying I’d swap Rafa for Hughton before anyone starts or that I think Rafa is s***. I just don’t buy into this whole we have to play this way because the players are crap.

 

First half we did everything but score. Why couldn’t we play the same way in the second half? You cannot say because we don’t have the players or if we did we’d get beat. We actually conceded and looked like losing by playing the opposite to how we played in the first half. We were not all out attacking or gung ho on the first half, we were on the front foot though and caused them problems and again, did everything but score.

 

Such tactics have cost us at home dearly and if we go down, we can look at that as one of the main reasons.

 

Like someone just said in the match thread: Do you think Newcastle is alone on the pitch? There's this other team there who can change things and improve their game.

 

We were dropping back first half as well. It was clearly a plan to get some space behind their defense and use our fast players to get there when we won the ball. Maybe they changed something that made it harder for us. I don't know. But clearly it isnt as simple as "why couldnt the second half be like the first".

 

We are at home, the onus is on us, they were well happy with a point from minute one.  By doing what we did in the second half we allowed them back into it. Again had we played the same way or more importantly tried to as we did in the first half, we run out comfortable winners and put another nail in their coffin.

 

I understand the opposition can change things to change their own game which can effect things, but we clearly and this is clearly the plan, changed how we played or approached the second half which had a negative effect on us and a positive one on them which ended up costing us all 3 points and almost a point.

 

I just don’t get it it, it’s nonsense really.

 

Hey lads, you did everything but score in the first half, but in the second I want yours to stop pressing, drop back deeper and launch it long because we will get in behind them...

 

Er we did that many a time in the first half despite them sitting very deep.

 

That second half is inexcusable and fans have a right to get pissed off with us seemingly happy with a point, at home, against the worst team in the division who on minute 45 with a corner were time wasting.

 

After we equalised we should have went at them and they would have folded like a pack of cards, but we didn’t.

[STM]

I think we could had opened up vs Swansea mind.  Their first 11 was worse than ours on paper, probably the only time that's happened this season.

 

You saw what happened at the end of the second half though? We lost the ball in a dangerous area and nearly conceded because we didn't have the quality to maintain the pressure.

[STM]

HTT, I don't think Rafa changed the game plan at half time. I think they did.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

HTT we dont have the capability of opening up against teams. It's nothing to do with tactics whatsoever.

 

You can't attack more without defending less IMO and in this scenario we can't afford to play any more expansive.

 

One of my big gripes about the criticism of Rafa after the city game, was the idea that we were deliberately conceeding possesion against them, as apposed to the reality, which was that we couldn't get the ball of them.

 

We opened them up time and time again in the first half so that’s bull shit. This is Swansea we are talking about, the one side where we are better than. Not man fucking city.

 

Let’s just get this straight.

 

First half we played a pressing game, high tempo and were quite high up the pitch. As a result we created many chances and had them penned in and were unlucky not to go in at least a goal up.

 

Second half we dropped 20 yards back, stopped pressing, launched it long and conceded possession.

 

WHY?

 

They did nowt to force that, nothing.

 

That was our tactics second half. Seemingly to draw them out to hit them over the top and on the break. Well that’s bull shit because we were doing that in the first half.

 

You can not defend that second half, the tactics nor the approach.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

HTT, I don't think Rafa changed the game plan at half time. I think they did.

 

Of course he did, as soon as we kicked off we dropped back and started launching it long. Perez dropped deeper and our pressing game stopped. They did fuck all to change the game second half after kick-off. They were content with a point. By doing what we did though they started seeing more of the ball and thought fucking hell, they too are happy with a point. Let’s see what we can do we may nick this and low and behold they scored.