Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[GWN]

42 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

No idea what this is meant to mean TBH

 

it wasn’t meant for you stop over thinking it kid 

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

To be fair, wasn't the stick Pep took directly in relation to Foden? Think Pep's argument was he's better off around first-team training, and it looks to be correct in this instance. I am pro-loan too though, I suppose Foden is once in a generation sort of talent.

There are more than one way to transition in a young player, Pep got it spot on with Foden, I think he wouldn’t have been averse to sending him out on loan, but it’s Pep, if he wants you around for first-team training, he’s trying to develop you personally in mind with his first-team plans eventually. 

[Deuce]

Taking a national team job might not be a terrible idea for Rafa at this point. 

[Wild Geese]

3 hours ago, 1878 said:

Hi all. Long time, no post!

To give an Everton perspective on Benitez - although there are some wider problems with the ownership, it's impossible to overstate what an incredibly bad job Rafa did here and how much damage he's been allowed to cause to the structure of the club in such a short time.

 

Although the fans were against his appointment, he got a very fair crack of the whip once he was actually in the job. The fans being against him was overblown by the media. It's only after a horrendous run of results and performances that the crowd turned on him.

• DOF - instead of trying to work with Marcel Brands, he made it his mission from day one to oust him, starting by cutting him out of all summer recruitment. This culminated in Brands resigning from the board and leaving the club during the season.
   
• Scouting - after ousting Brands, he fired the chief scout and head recruitment person that had been appointed by him. As far as I know, they have not been replaced, with Rafa just doing his own thing in the January window. This means that after sacking Benitez we basically don't have a recruitment department.
   
• Medical - he fired Danny Donachie, the long serving head of medical, who was very popular with the players, citing too many set backs in injury recovery. After appointing his own people, DCL promptly had an injury set back that kept him out for over a month longer and Yerry Mina broke down 15 mins into his first game back. Presumably his medical people will all go with him and we'll have to bring back Donachie et al or hire new staff.
   
• Coaching - for me, the one upside of the appointment was that he had a reputation for being a great coach who had his teams organised, well drilled and disciplined, especially defensively. What we actually got was a complete shambles. The defence has been all over the place from the first game of the season until Saturday's nadir at Norwich. There was never any shape to the team and they regularly looked lost on the pitch.
   
• Tactics - I knew from his time at Liverpool and yourselves that Benitez was quite negative, but he really took it beyond a joke here. I can't think of a single game this season where, no matter how poor the opposition, we didn't start the game by conceding all impetus to them even at home. I think he recently set some sort of record for consecutive games conceding the first goal.
   
• Formations - he often played a negative 5 at the back system, including against lower league opposition in the cup. The main failing however, was a weird insistence on playing a two man central midfield week in, week out, which got overrun by opposition midfield threes every time and lost us game after game. I don't think midfield pairs work generally in football these days, but especially not when Doucoure aside, there's a severe lack of pace available in central midfield (Allan, Davies, Gomes). Him apparently seeing Sean Longstaff as the answer to this was terrifying.
   
• Results - 1 win and 6 points in his last 13 says it all. Ok the squad isn't great, but it's nowhere near 1 in 13 bad. Last season, we finished top half and could still qualify for Europe on the final day. Mike Walker is widely regarded as the worst EFC manager of all time but before his sacking, he managed 1 win and 7 points in 13 games. Benitez also went out of the cup to QPR and suffered the heaviest home derby defeat for 40 years when he played his suicidal midfield two against Liverpool's three. 
   
• Injuries - this was Rafa's constant excuse, and true enough, at one point we had a few key players out at the same time. However, apart from DCL, there were spells were he had pretty much everybody else available and we saw no improvement. The squad was fully fit vs Norwich and he served up the worst result of the season.
   
• Rondon - fair enough, sign him on a free due to limited summer budget/FFP and working with him successfully in the past. But once it became very clear that the guy was overweight, unfit and couldn't run or even win a header anymore, just admit your mistake and drop him. Starting him was literally like playing 10 vs 11 every week. Do not persist with the guy for the entire season to the point where he becomes a lightning rod for fan frustration and starts getting booed onto the pitch by his own supporters.
   
• Youth - the club have got two good young strikers, Lewis Dobbin and Ellis Simms (who impressed on loan at Blackpool last season). He refused to give them a chance ahead of Rondon in DCL's absence until the recent Chelsea game, when he was forced to play them and young centre back Jarrad Branthwaite due to Covid. They all acquitted themselves very well in a battling performance to steal a draw, Branthwaite scoring the winner. They've not had a look in since. Dobbin is out of contract at the end of the season and has a host of clubs after him. Sacking Benitez will hopefully convince him to sign a new deal, because he was a cert to leave otherwise.
   
• Left Back - aside from the well documented petty fallout with Digne, he also sent away our only other recognised left back Niels Nkounkou on loan to Belgium before the season started. This kid looked like a great prospect playing in the cups under Ancelotti last season, especially attacking-wise. With Digne frozen out, we had to play a centre back (Godfrey) and a finished right back (Coleman) out of position. When the January window opened he spent £20m on Mykolenko to replace Digne and in the two games so far vs Hull and Norwich, he looks absolutely miles off being a Premier League level player. A total mess entirely of Benitez's own making.
   
• Right Back - the club have been desperate to replace Coleman for a couple of years and Rafa finally signs a good prospect in Nathan Patterson for £12m this month. Well done! However since then, Coleman and Jonjoe Kenny have started the games and even when dragged off for playing horribly, Benitez still wouldn't put Patterson in, instead moving Godfrey there. Pretty bizarre stuff.
   
• Work Environment - since the sacking, it's been said that the atmosphere at the training ground has been horrendous all season and that the majority of players are relieved to see him go. Notable that only Andros Townsend (who obviously had a pre-existing relationship with him) has made a social media post about Benitez since the news broke.

 

Things I would give him credit for:

 

• Demari Gray - one of the shining lights this season and an absolute bargain at £1.7m. Seems to have unlocked his potential. Struggling to think of anything else positive.

 

In my opinion, Benitez is very much yesterday's man and is finished at the top level. Throw in the fact that he could start a fight in an empty room and no Premier League club should touch him with a barge pole. Eddie Howe has been linked with the Everton job a lot over the years and I've never been keen on him tbh, but I'd have swapped him for Benitez in a heartbeat. I think your fans need to take off the rose tinted specs with Benitez, look at the reality of his performance at Everton (and China before that) and forget about the idea of him coming back to save the day. You're much better off sticking with Howe.

 

Your Eddie Howe eh ?

[Yorkie]

Forum nerd stuff but it's nice to see so much engagement. Nearly 350 votes on the poll, pretty cool. 

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, Tomato Deuce said:

Taking a national team job might not be a terrible idea for Rafa at this point. 

I’m sure he would try and make it work, but his methods are every day training ground repetition drills to fully work…

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, Yorkie said:

Forum nerd stuff but it's nice to see so much engagement. Nearly 350 votes on the poll, pretty cool. 

FUCKING GEEK

 

Aye it’s great tbh, loving it!

[Happinesstan]

4 hours ago, WillingtonMag said:

Would like to think with the investment in the team we might at some point in the future be able to play some good attacking entertaining football. That rules Rafa out for me.

Give Rafa the players he needs and you see a different game altogether.

[Guest HTT II]

I voted no, again I love the man and rate him highly, he’d keep us up, but we’ve made our bed and need to lie in it with Howe and I do feel Rafa isn’t a long-term solution at all and could do with a break from football, if only for his health and well being. We had him, loved him, and will never lose him because of how special he means to us all. I’d hate for him to tarnish his legacy/reputation here, that would probably break me as a fan more than relegation, that’s how much he meant to me and his time here. If it wasn’t for him, me and NUFC would be divorced for good, takeover or not.

[nufcjb]

Rafa missed his chance to join us to be honest. Not when he decided to join Everton. But when we sacked Bruce and went for him. He stayed blindly loyal to them and his principles when was already obvious it was not working and going to get worse. Yes it would have seem he was after money but he started a project here and rejoining us then would have made sense like he was back to finish the job. Sadly, that train has passed for him and us.

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, nufcjb said:

Rafa missed his chance to join us to be honest. Not when he decided to join Everton. But when we sacked Bruce and went for him. He stayed blindly loyal to them and his principles when was already obvious it was not working and going to get worse. Yes it would have seem he was after money but he started a project here and rejoining us then would have made sense like he was back to finish the job. Sadly, that train has passed for him and us.

He was never going to just jump ship back to us, he usually doesn’t break contracts and even despite the daft ness of his move there, he would have had full confidence in his ability and that of his staff he’d turn it around.

[Chicken Dancer]

7 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I think a lot of people thought he should leave. Pep treated him with kid gloves, which was the exact right thing to do. Used him very sparingly and now is reaping the rewards. And yeah agree with with both your points.

 

Me included! I thought he was going to stifle his career. It's almost as if Pep Guardiola with his 30 trophies as a coach knows more than me.

[Guest HTT II]

A lot does depend on the young player’s mentality too, I would imagine Foden would have thought I’d rather train with Pep and the stars than go out on loan as I’m gonna prove my worth and get into that team. Even some not so talented kids can make a breakthrough and do relatively well based on being mentally strong, determined and willing to do whatever it takes.

 

Most aren’t, however, it’s a fragile environment from academy upto under 23 level for most, even the very talented. So many factors are ignored or simply brushed aside at that level where well if you’re at say LFC at 23, why are you not getting many games or why have you not left or why if you’ve been out on loan you didn’t cut it.
 

I’m sure Kane looked dross when he went out on loan, Carroll too. Again for me, it’s about finding the right environment/being in the right environment. Even for established first-teamers, look at us under Rafa, Lascelles become Captain and suddenly transformed as a player, conversely Longstaff has regressed massively (as they all have) once he left, mostly it’s down to talent either way, but having the right mentality and determination and work ethic goes a long way. Have both and you can’t fail unless injuries, fitness etc.

 

Henderson at LFC for example. People at SAFC said there were more talented kids, but many knew from day one he’d make it and when he joined Liverpool, he’d prove himself and he has. He’s a shining light fro any talented NE kid coming through at academies for me.

 

Football is a simple game to play, but it’s a very complicated business to get into, stay in and become one of the best or better than others. Unless you’re Steve Bruce of course, being shit at your job gets you a 1000 games, an absolute joke. 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Yeah I probably posted the same about it I can't remmeber, he played it perfectly though.  I wish he would loan us Cole Palmer

He looks a player too!

[Chicken Dancer]

Kane was nothing, if I remember correctly- Sherwood was caretaker or something and had a bit of a striker crisis, so had to play him. Similar situation with Rashford I think, can't remember much fanfare about either (certainly not on FM ) prior to them breaking into the squads or as youngins, although I could be wrong. They got in by accident and have stayed there - makes you wonder how many kids/young players just need a run of games, there'll be 1000s that slip through.

[Shearergol]

3 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Aye Kane wasn't great (from memory) goals wise but the value he would have got from the loan is huge. I didn't see his games but I imagine his all round game was pretty decent. It's also the fact he CAN play against men, in men's football without being completely bullied.

 

Probably not the place for it, but I watched Toney every week for Scunthorpe, and even at that level he still looked like a kid. Obviously he bossed it, but looking at him now he looks like a completely different player. There's no way he would have come into the Newcastle team at the time and got to the level he is now. He looks like an absolute beast now.

[Shearergol]

Just now, Chicken Dancer said:

Kane was nothing, if I remember correctly- Sherwood was caretaker or something and had a bit of a striker crisis, so had to play him. Similar situation with Rashford I think, can't remember much fanfare about either (certainly not on FM ) prior to them breaking into the squads or as youngins, although I could be wrong. They got in by accident and have stayed there - makes you wonder how many kids/young players just need a run of games, there'll be 1000s that slip through.

 

All this time and I hadn't realised Kane played for Norwich.

[Guest HTT II]

9 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Aye Kane wasn't great (from memory) goals wise but the value he would have got from the loan is huge. I didn't see his games but I imagine his all round game was pretty decent. It's also the fact he CAN play against men, in men's football without being completely bullied.

Aye, the experience would have been decent for him and probably helped him become more hungrier to make it. You make a good point there, stats can be misleading, I don’t think he scored many, but he could have looked really good for all we know and today fans and media and pundits look at a player and base their analysis on stats alone mostly.
 

Look at Kane this season, he has what 4 goals? If he was 23 now Spurs fans would be wanting him out with that kind of form, and although he’s been off form for a while now, he has become one of the best strikers in the world since he come through. Another good point, loans lower down can test a player physically and that alone if they come through can show they can at least compete physically, which is half the battle.

 

I’ve seen 17 year old kids with nowt to them against other 17 year olds much more stronger and although more skilled and more talented, be absolutely destroyed by cloggers who end up making it and the talented player doesn’t.

 

You’re a scout and it’s about scouting and using proper data IMO on all kinds of metrics than just well the big lad beat him in the air so he’s shit at heading or whatever. That’s why I’m hoping in the near future we start using tech more to analyse players and look at technical strengths and weaknesses over physical, especially at younger ages.

 

My nephew was deemed slow, weak and skinny, he’s 6ft plus now and does martial arts and goes on runs. Some of the kids bigger and stronger than him at the same age now didn’t develop at their original rate, he caught up or become taller, stronger, quicker. None of them play today at any level other than maybe 5-a-side with mates etc.

 

Those group of kids 15 years ago were deemed the cream of the crop at NUFC/youth level.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest Biggsbond14]

Martinez linked for a return apparently did the Everton fans not hound him out too ?

[Fantail Breeze]

Really hope they get Martinez, would be hilarious. Would possibly drag them into a relegation fight.

[cubaricho]

Martinez would be an absolute idiot to walk away from this Belgium squad in a WC year.

[r0cafella]

Rafa needs another NUFC. A club that he can go into who respects his achievements for what they are and given the freedom to do his job. Once he finds such a club he will absolutely fly and overachieve. 

[Thiago]

10 hours ago, cubaricho said:

Martinez would be an absolute idiot to walk away from this Belgium squad in a WC year.

But don't be shocked if he dips out after the WC. The current crop is drifting towards retirement and the next wave isn't half as good. It's the worst time to take a national team. 

[TRon]

9 hours ago, r0cafella said:

Rafa needs another NUFC. A club that he can go into who respects his achievements for what they are and given the freedom to do his job. Once he finds such a club he will absolutely fly and overachieve. 

 

Could say the same for Mourinho to some extent, but his ego will be the problem anywhere in England. But these guys are students of the game, they haven't suddenly turned into bad managers. I don't think either will be getting top level jobs in a hurry though, at least not while teams like Liverpool, City and Chelsea are sweeping up everything playing attacking football. They would probably do better doing what Simeone does at Atletico, take charge of an unfancied club and make them punch above their weight. 

[r0cafella]

7 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

Could say the same for Mourinho to some extent, but his ego will be the problem anywhere in England. But these guys are students of the game, they haven't suddenly turned into bad managers. I don't think either will be getting top level jobs in a hurry though, at least not while teams like Liverpool, City and Chelsea are sweeping up everything playing attacking football. They would probably do better doing what Simeone does at Atletico, take charge of an unfancied club and make them punch above their weight. 

Disagree, Rafa took us on when we were at a very Low ebb, nothing to suggest he’s over egotistical about the clubs he takes over. 
 

will he find this kind of club? That remains to be seen but he’d be a fantastic appointment for any Ho hum who would back him the way he needs.