Joelinton

[Conjo]

Almiron will score, assist and work better for the team in that role you guys envision for Joelinton. I wish it wasn’t so but it’s fact. It’s pointless to say anything else because the player and manager are not suited for one another and when given the chance to just make a proper play or show something - Jo simply hasn’t gotten the job done or shown any glimpses he will here.

 

It’s as simple as that

 

Our best team doesn’t have Joelinton in it. You might as well argue that we should have put the ginger Pirlo in the team with the remaining best players to get the best out of him. You have to do what’s best for the team, not what’s best for an individual player. What’s best for the team is Joelinton sitting on the bench and more capable players out on the pitch.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is "envisioning" Joelinton in that role at the expense of Almiron. However some want to see what Joelinton can add to the team in such a role, as he's never been given the opportunity to play in the role he had success with in Germany. Don't see what is so outrageous about that. ASM/Almiron/Fraser are all interchangable so there's definitely room to add Joelinton for a few matches to give him a chance to prove himself.

 

There’s literally a post that Kanji’s post was in response to with a team lineup envisioning just that. The point is that we have better options, that you would need to drop, for the position where you might get the best out of Joelinton.

 

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he meant he would like Joelinton given a chance to prove himself in that position, not taking anyone's place by default. If he's given a chance in a more favorable position and shows us why he cost £40m then he would be part of our best 11 and should start as a result, no?

 

If he's never going to be used as anything other than a lone striker then I agree he might as well be loaned out or sold as he should be behind Wilson, Gayle and Carroll in the pecking order.

[Unbelievable]

Well if he is given the chance it will be at the expense of someone currently more deserving by default (in that example Almiron). To my mind if he wants that chance he will have to earn it, which he can by showing in training what he could do and by displaying a modicum of ability and desire in the game time which he is given, which in fairness has been far more significant than he has merited so far during his time here thanks to his price tag and the lack of alternatives last year. Now we have more alternatives he will have a battle on his hands to get back into the first team, let alone in this position he's supposed to be far better suited for in theory.

[prefabtoon]

Bruce is under orders from Ashley to play Joe linton. he was Bought by Ashley and Bruce is under orders to pencil him in every week.

[geordie john]

Bruce is under orders from Ashley to play Joe linton. he was Bought by Ashley and Bruce is under orders to pencil him in every week.

 

You know this from?

 

No orders.

[prefabtoon]

Bruce is under orders from Ashley to play Joe linton. he was Bought by Ashley and Bruce is under orders to pencil him in every week.

 

You know this from?

Ashley wont allow his judgment to be questioned, Ashley's way of thinking is he is bound to come good sooner or later.

If Bruce wasn't under orders he would have lent him out or sold him to get his wages of our books.

He is just a passenger we cannot afford to have on the field.

No orders.

[Kanj]

Well if he is given the chance it will be at the expense of someone currently more deserving by default (in that example Almiron). To my mind if he wants that chance he will have to earn it, which he can by showing in training what he could do and by displaying a modicum of ability and desire in the game time which he is given, which in fairness has been far more significant than he has merited so far during his time here thanks to his price tag and the lack of alternatives last year. Now we have more alternatives he will have a battle on his hands to get back into the first team, let alone in this position he's supposed to be far better suited for in theory.

 

Even if he's not a striker, he cost 40m and he looked terrible doing simple things versus Blackburn. OK, maybe he's out of form, fine. But the point still stands - he has not earned his place into the team. People need to stop trying to shoe-horn a 40m player into the team because of what he used to do 2 seasons ago at Hoffenheim.

[KaKa]

No one is trying to shoehorn him into the team. I don't know why people keep saying this.

 

All that has been said is that at some point it would be nice to see him used how he was at his previous club that led to the top scout reports and the spending of £40 million on him. It's basic common sense really.

 

When Almiron was being played on the right side under Bruce and looking poor there and being called a headless chicken who couldn't finish, what turned it around was him eventually being moved to playing off the front man where he had done well in the MLS. In the MLS he either played off the front or on the left. He had also looked good on the left under Rafa. For whatever reason Bruce in his infinite wisdom came in and was using him on the right, and he was being fast tracked to the 'he is shite, get rid' pile.

 

This whole thing is just getting ridiculous now, but whatever. Best case scenario he just gets a good club and leaves. Even worse than the managers mismanagement of the player is the fans haste to completely write off the player.

[Sean]

Well if he is given the chance it will be at the expense of someone currently more deserving by default (in that example Almiron). To my mind if he wants that chance he will have to earn it, which he can by showing in training what he could do and by displaying a modicum of ability and desire in the game time which he is given, which in fairness has been far more significant than he has merited so far during his time here thanks to his price tag and the lack of alternatives last year. Now we have more alternatives he will have a battle on his hands to get back into the first team, let alone in this position he's supposed to be far better suited for in theory.

 

Even if he's not a striker, he cost 40m and he looked terrible doing simple things versus Blackburn. OK, maybe he's out of form, fine. But the point still stands - he has not earned his place into the team. People need to stop trying to shoe-horn a 40m player into the team because of what he used to do 2 seasons ago at Hoffenheim.

 

He's not even a £40 million player. I'd love to see some actual evidence that NUFC paid that much for him but I'm convinced it doesn't exist. I'd be amazed if the club have actually paid out more than £16 million for him. Even then, Ashley has been had completely.

[KaKa]

cringe worthy stuff.

[Sean]

cringe worthy stuff.

 

Your last post about him was pretty cringeworthy. It definitely can't be cringeworthy to suggest he's not worth £40 million, unless you are off your rocker.

 

What is it about him that impresses you so much?

 

And also, why do you take any criticism of him so personally?

[KaKa]

You're the one imagining the fee was made up. I just think that's strange man

[Sean]

You're the one imagining the fee was made up. I just think that's strange man

 

Well if I'm not mistaken it was reported as worth "upto £40 million".

 

If you think Ashley has paid out that full amount then I give up.

[KaKa]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't throw him on the rubbish heap just yet, as our brilliant manager clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

 

You folks were the same ones that were ridiculing Almiron not too long ago, and now you all love him.

[TRon]

Well if he is given the chance it will be at the expense of someone currently more deserving by default (in that example Almiron). To my mind if he wants that chance he will have to earn it, which he can by showing in training what he could do and by displaying a modicum of ability and desire in the game time which he is given, which in fairness has been far more significant than he has merited so far during his time here thanks to his price tag and the lack of alternatives last year. Now we have more alternatives he will have a battle on his hands to get back into the first team, let alone in this position he's supposed to be far better suited for in theory.

 

Which is all good from my perspective, I have said from the start of last season he should never have been the no 1 striker regardless of the alleged £40m fee. Best thing for him now is to be starting from the bench and with less expectation. I like aspects of his game so still think he has potential.

[Sean]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't throw him on the rubbish heap just yet, as our brilliant manager clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

 

You folks were the same ones that were ridiculing Almiron not too long ago, and now you all love him.

 

Ahem, I never rubbished Almiron as his quality is obvious to anyone.

 

He was also bought by a manager for a specific reason, to fit into a team and was scouted extensively (and opinions from people that knew him sought).

 

This clown was bought by Ashley to calm the masses as an expensive signing. Not really for footballing reasons.

 

There is no comparison between the 2.

 

Stop getting so defensive of an Ashley signing...it's cringeworthy (to use your own words).

[TRon]

cringe worthy stuff.

 

Your last post about him was pretty cringeworthy. It definitely can't be cringeworthy to suggest he's not worth £40 million, unless you are off your rocker.

 

What is it about him that impresses you so much?

 

And also, why do you take any criticism of him so personally?

 

I think it's the other way round, some of the hate mob take it too personally. I was actually taken aback at the abuse he was getting on the match thread considering it was a game where there was some absolutely shocking football being played regardless of his performance.

[Sean]

cringe worthy stuff.

 

Your last post about him was pretty cringeworthy. It definitely can't be cringeworthy to suggest he's not worth £40 million, unless you are off your rocker.

 

What is it about him that impresses you so much?

 

And also, why do you take any criticism of him so personally?

 

I think it's the other way round, some of the hate mob take it too personally. I was actually taken aback at the abuse he was getting on the match thread considering it was a game where there was some absolutely shocking football being played regardless of his performance.

 

That may be fair enough, I haven't seen the posts and haven't been posting about him during matches.

 

 

[KaKa]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't throw him on the rubbish heap just yet, as our brilliant manager clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

 

You folks were the same ones that were ridiculing Almiron not too long ago, and now you all love him.

 

Ahem, I never rubbished Almiron as his quality is obvious to anyone.

 

He was also bought by a manager for a specific reason, to fit into a team and was scouted extensively (and opinions from people that knew him sought).

 

This clown was bought by Ashley to calm the masses as an expensive signing. Not really for footballing reasons.

 

There is no comparison between the 2.

 

All I know is a lot of people were on Almiron's back when he was initially being played in a position he was not as accustomed to.

 

He was moved, his performances improved and now he is one of the favourites in the team.

 

Joelinton was not bought as an expensive signing to calm the masses, that is ridiculous. MA does not care about the masses at all.

 

MA wanted him because he has asked the scouting team to identify younger players with potentially large re-sale values. This has been what he continually pushes for, it was the same with all of the French talent we kept bringing in, or Mitrovic etc etc.

 

The scouting team had very high marks for Joelinton regarding this remit, and MA wanted him brought to the club.

[Rod]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't throw him on the rubbish heap just yet, as our brilliant manager clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

 

You folks were the same ones that were ridiculing Almiron not too long ago, and now you all love him.

I sussed Joelinton out after approximately six games.  Pathetic was the word I used.  If you can't see that then I can only assume that you are being argumentative for argumentative sake.  The bloke is useless, honest.

[geordie john]

 

There are two massive issues surrounding Joelinton:

 

1. His massive transfer fee

2. His footballing ability.

 

1. I am pretty certain that we all think his transfer fee (even before he signed for us) was mega inflated. Rafa himself said 'no' and that he was not worth even £20m. It seems bizarre that Ashley, who notoriously spends as little as he can, would break the bank on a relatively unknown and unproven goal scorer. Did he honestly believe that Joelinton would come in, take the premiership by storm, score 25 goals and then go to Real Madrid for £80m? Not a chance in hell. I am firmly of the belief, as are many others, that this deal was crooked and that £40m did not change hands. But, of course, we can't prove it.

 

2. The people who defend him and say he should be given a chance are partly right. He did well enough in his last season in Germany, but with a vastly respected, innovative and intelligent coach, and a very good team set up. We have none of those things. Playing him week after week, in the same team formation, with the same tactics (tactics?) is just making the same mistake time after time in the hope that it will cure itself by accident. It doesn't work like that.

 

I have seen nothing, not one iota, of ability, skill, strikers awareness, aggression and hunger for goals that any good striker needs. Just by being on the pitch gives him, mathematically, a chance to score 5 or so goals in a season. Joelinton hasn't even managed that.

 

Solution:

1. Stick with him, change the manager, system and tactics. Ain't going to happen.

2. Send him back to Germany on loan to see if he can rekindle an ounce of his previous touch, and hope that we get an offer that minimises the loss to around £20m.

 

With Bruce as our manager (weeps tears just typing it) I really don't see the point of persevering with him in the magical and groundless hope that he will suddenly turn into a striker.

 

[KaKa]

Good post, and I agree. Think he has to be found another club pronto, because under Bruce it's looking like things are going to get only worse for him.

 

He's just going to get put upfront alone in weakened teams in the cup games, and that is not going to do anything to improve his situation at all.

 

Your statement regarding Rafa saying he wasn't worth £20 million is wrong by the way. Rafa thought a fee of £20 million was his value rather than £40 million.

 

Ashley revealed: ‘We delivered Rafa’s number one target in January, Miguel Almiron, but Hoffenheim wouldn’t sell Joelinton. Then in February they said we could get him early, but it would cost £40m. He was a name we had discussed with Rafa, and our recruitment people had him top of their list. I thought it was one of those that would keep drifting away, but no, we had it done.

 

‘I was so excited to tell Rafa we’ve got another one coming, but when Lee Charnley, our managing director, had the conversation, his view was that he didn’t want to commit to the transfer until he knew what his position was with the club next season. And I didn’t get that. Is this the bloke who had given it to me for the last 12 months?

 

‘Proper given me bucketfuls – which I may or may not deserve, but I don’t deserve it on this one, because I’ve done it. I’ve got his first choice, Almiron, and this other player who was so exciting we thought he’d be out of our range. When we first sat down with Rafa, we didn’t think we would pay this much for a player. We’d never done that before.

 

‘From there, the relationship deteriorated very quickly. I was personally very disappointed, and that’s putting it politely. I was freaked out. I’m thinking, “I clearly don’t understand anything about football” because I’m all for celebrating and going mad and suddenly it’s, “No – you’ve got to sort my deal out first.” So we had another few weeks of correspondence and then it wasn’t just his deal, it was that he thought the £40m for Joelinton wasn’t worth it. It’s too much and the club shouldn’t spend it.

 

‘And very occasionally, I get to be me in this world. So here’s the deal. I’ll pay £20m of it personally. Nothing to do with the club. Above and beyond the budget. Rafa valued him at £20m. So that’s what would come out of the club budget. The rest, £23m – I’ll pay. And he still didn’t sign it off. Looking back, I think he knew for a long time he was going to China because it was like we couldn’t do anything. Joelinton was the test.

 

‘Why on earth would you not want that? As a football manager, with all the things you have said, why wouldn’t you want Joelinton? It wasn’t even as if it was him or Salomon Rondon. And we told him that. We just wanted Joelinton secured.’

[STM]

At some point Joelinton has to show something right? We cant just keep making excuses like team selection, out of position, shit manager, first season etc etc.

 

At some point he has to, you know, pass the ball in the right direction, win a tackle, get a shot on target, that sort of thing. Call me old fashioned like. 

[KaKa]

Yes, because he hasn't done any of those things at all since he joined. Of course

[STM]

Yes, because he hasn't done any of those things at all since he joined. Of course

 

Not to the standards of PL footballer, no.

 

He has been totally shite. Will he always be shite? Noone can answer that.

[bobloblaw]

The large transfer fee is irrelevant at this point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

 

Damaging the overall team in an attempt to recoup some of the value is a bad idea.