madras Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Dr Jinx said: I didn't say he had a better season, i said it was a myth that he played better under Bruce. His end product is pretty much exactly the same. And yes, there is a massive difference between Messi (even at the age he is now) and a 25 year old ASM. One has high end product, the other does not. So saying that he's the best forward on the pitch in some games (which you did), doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. He needs to do much much better, he has the ability but the question is does he feel like he needs to improve. If he thinks 5 assists a year is going to get him the Ballon d'Or he'll be left waiting. You said the better season under Bruce thing was a myth because of those stats. Re Messi is it purely the stats that dictate if he's had a better season than others he's had, could he play better in a season when he scores less ? Of course he could. Him being g the best forward on the pitch without scoring g or assisting g does stand up to scrutiny from someone watching, but not by stats alone. Last paragraph 100% Stats and data can be used as a guide but they don't tell the whole story. Just like you'll miss bits by watching a player alone. Edited July 25, 2022 by madras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 What he needs to show is a commitment to self-improvement. The ballon d'or comment was a complete joke - he hasn't even played for his country yet. He needs to drop the self-delusion, and knuckle down to working on his game so he makes a better and more consistent contribution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Jinx Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 12 minutes ago, madras said: You said the better season under Bruce thing was a myth because of those stats. Re Messi is it purely the stats that dictate if he's had a better season than others he's had, could he play better in a season when he scores less ? Of course he could. Him being g the best forward on the pitch without scoring g or assisting g does stand up to scrutiny from someone watching, but not by stats alone. Last paragraph 100% Stats and data can be used as a guide but they don't tell the whole story. What absolute twoddle. If Messi was scoring about 5 goals and getting 5 assists for 2 seasons in a row, but he was regularly having games where he was repeatedly beating 4 and 5 players with the ball before getting dispossessed, every pundit, journalist and supporter would be saying the same thing. 'Totally out of form' Now don't think i'm saying ASM should be getting Messi stats, i'm not. But he should be doing better than he is. He should be aiming for 10-15 assists a season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Dr Jinx said: What absolute twoddle. If Messi was scoring about 5 goals and getting 5 assists for 2 seasons in a row, but he was regularly having games where he was repeatedly beating 4 and 5 players with the ball before getting dispossessed, every pundit, journalist and supporter would be saying the same thing. 'Totally out of form' Now don't think i'm saying ASM should be getting Messi stats, i'm not. But he should be doing better than he is. He should be aiming for 10-15 assists a season. With a better striker than Wood in the team, if he doesn't get close to that I would say he'll be sold next summer. I refuse to judge him on last season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Dr Jinx said: What absolute twoddle. If Messi was scoring about 5 goals and getting 5 assists for 2 seasons in a row, but he was regularly having games where he was repeatedly beating 4 and 5 players with the ball before getting dispossessed, every pundit, journalist and supporter would be saying the same thing. 'Totally out of form' Now don't think i'm saying ASM should be getting Messi stats, i'm not. But he should be doing better than he is. He should be aiming for 10-15 assists a season. Do you mean dispossessed or giving the ball to someone else who gets dispossessed so he does ecactlty the same thing but his stats look different because of others ? I'd be saying they were talking shite and we both know they regularly do. Edited July 25, 2022 by madras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Jinx Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, madras said: Do you mean dispossessed or giving the ball to someone else who gets dispossessed so he does ecactlty the same thing but his stats look different because of others ? I'd be saying they were talking shite and we both know they regularly do. Serious question, how often do you watch our games? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Dr Jinx said: Serious question, how often do you watch our games? Very often. Serious question, do you think any serious manager or coach or pundit makes a judgement on such a broad stat ? It's like judging a keeper on clean sheets when there are so many more variables. Don't get me wrong I'm not writing off data as it is now so much more comprehensive and results driven rather than merely goals and assists which tell you very little really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjohnson Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, madras said: Very often. Serious question, do you think any serious manager or coach or pundit makes a judgement on such a broad stat ? It's like judging a keeper on clean sheets when there are so many more variables. Don't get me wrong I'm not writing off data as it is now so much more comprehensive and results driven rather than merely goals and assists which tell you very little really. How's the bacon? PFMs live by this as it's an easy way out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 It can’t be denied, ASM’s attacking stats in terms of goals and assist are very poor, but then so has our whole team’s stats been poor, especially combined. He needs to be targeting 10 goals at least next season and 8 or more assists. I’d like us to play higher up the pitch and for him to play more alongside Wilson in the final third as he will have less of the pitch to have to go on runs which as we know, cam fizzle out once he’s skipped past one or two from deep. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 34 minutes ago, gjohnson said: How's the bacon? PFMs live by this as it's an easy way out I've no idea what any of that means. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 I think it’s pretty straightforward, ASM needs to adapt his game and incorporate himself into the attacking phases of our game better than just trying to take 4/5 players himself or just cut in and shoot. Remains to be seen if he can do this or more to the point, if Howe thinks he’s coachable enough to adapt.. the player needs to drop his ego down a few levels before he can even begin imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
80 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 hours ago, gjohnson said: How's the bacon? PFMs live by this as it's an easy way out That's a bollocks thing to say in this instance. Not least because the Allardyces of the world manipulate and hide behind statistics all the while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexf Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Hanshithispantz said: Given the fact he doesn't really contribute off the ball and gets dispossessed more times than 99% of the league, he really needs to be contributing to like ~15 goals a season. The kind of numbers Bowen and Barnes are hitting. I don't think that's right. I swear I'd seen stats where he is way out Infront as the best dribbler in the league. A quick Google gave me this... "His completion stats make even better reading. Of his 225 dribbles, 139 of them have been successful" 4 May 2022 Edited July 25, 2022 by alexf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, alexf said: I don't think that's right. I swear I'd seen stats where he is way out Infront as the best dribbler in the league. A quick Google gave me this... "His completion stats make even better reading. Of his 225 dribbles, 139 of them have been successful" 4 May 2022 This stat makes him sound more effective than he is in reality, he must attempt dribbles 4/5x more than a lot of wingers in the league. As the old saying goes - if you throw enough shit eventually some will stick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexf Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, Nine said: This stat makes him sound more effective than he is in reality, he must attempt dribbles 4/5x more than a lot of wingers in the league. As the old saying goes - if you throw enough shit eventually some will stick. https://www.kickest.it/en/premier-league/stats/players/successful-dribbles Abit more data here. What's clear to my eye, even without the stats l, is we have one of, if not the best, dribbler in the league. Get him doing it higher up the pitch 1v1 will result in more goals and assists. We have a great talent in our squad and it's really annoying this theme on here lately that he's some sort of problem. Hopefully now that the club is moving in the right direction he will perform even better and his output will increase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Just now, alexf said: https://www.kickest.it/en/premier-league/stats/players/successful-dribbles Abit more data here. What's clear to my eye, even without the stats l, is we have one of, if not the best, dribbler in the league. Get him doing it higher up the pitch 1v1 will result in more goals and assists. We have a great talent in our squad and it's really annoying this theme on here lately that he's some sort of problem. Hopefully now that the club is moving in the right direction he will perform even better and his output will increase. That’s the key, getting him higher up the pitch. He plays so deep as we do, he has to take everyone on and we rarely have more than two options further forward for him. Imagine if he had just a full-back to beat to cut in and shoot, or cross, or he was in a two vs 3 and could try and slip in someone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, alexf said: https://www.kickest.it/en/premier-league/stats/players/successful-dribbles Abit more data here. What's clear to my eye, even without the stats l, is we have one of, if not the best, dribbler in the league. Get him doing it higher up the pitch 1v1 will result in more goals and assists. We have a great talent in our squad and it's really annoying this theme on here lately that he's some sort of problem. Hopefully now that the club is moving in the right direction he will perform even better and his output will increase. Of course he has talent and I agree he’d be alot more effective if he started his runs further up. As I said before he needs to adapt his entire game though, I’m just not sure that he can.. even pushed further up he needs to learn decisive attacking actions rather than just playing like someone on fifa. Imagine those runs but with a decently timed pass on the end of them rather than just running into the 3rd defender that’s on him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, 80 said: That's a bollocks thing to say in this instance. Not least because the Allardyces of the world manipulate and hide behind statistics all the while. Can you explain what it means though ? I googled PFMs and it was nowt to do with football. Edited July 25, 2022 by madras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, alexf said: https://www.kickest.it/en/premier-league/stats/players/successful-dribbles Ryan Fraser had one successful dribble last season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 minute ago, madras said: Can you explain what it means though ? I googled PMF and it was nowt to do with football. Proper manager, football! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Pata said: Ryan Fraser had one successful dribble last season. That was when he first gazed at Dan Burn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahoneys Tache Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 I’ve been saying for a while that he’s the new ketsbaia but the Georgian loon played in a much better team than ASM has so far and therefore his quirks were a bit more apparent more quickly. Running down blind alleys and losing the ball is a trait they both have / had, and so is limited end product. saying that selling your best attacking player makes no sense only applies if your best attacking player is actually effective. ASM has his moments, but not many and if he’s replaced by someone better then it makes perfect sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mahoneys Tache said: I’ve been saying for a while that he’s the new ketsbaia but the Georgian loon played in a much better team than ASM has so far and therefore his quirks were a bit more apparent more quickly. Running down blind alleys and losing the ball is a trait they both have / had, and so is limited end product. saying that selling your best attacking player makes no sense only applies if your best attacking player is actually effective. ASM has his moments, but not many and if he’s replaced by someone better then it makes perfect sense. I'm pretty sure Howe would sell him if there was any genuine interest from somewhere. I wonder what sort of money it would take for us to let him go? I reckon around £25-30m. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteV Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 minute ago, TRon said: I'm pretty sure Howe would sell him if there was any genuine interest from somewhere. I wonder what sort of money it would take for us to let him go? I reckon around £25-30m. I suspect you’d need to double that… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Just now, SteV said: I suspect you’d need to double that… Not if you want the sale to go through. No is going to pay £50m for ASM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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