Allan Saint-Maximin (now playing for Fenerbahce, on loan from Al-Ahli)

[Wandy]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Players like ASM are very useful for lower half table sides, as a team set up to counter loves having an ASM.  Watching him run at a panicking, back-pedalling defence was always great fun. He can ‘dance’, and those players are always fun to watch.  

 

But he isn’t a top level player, and now we are a very good side and as teams sit off us, his usefulness diminishes.  And then frustration kicks in, as he sets off on runs from the middle of the pitch into a bank of eight defenders.  The player he reminds me most of when he does that is Ketsbaia - ASM is a more talented dribbler, but the outcome was usually the same. 

 

I do think that sometimes the idea of ASM outweighs the actuality.  

 

Your last sentence nails it. People imagine him becoming the player that he never will be.

[Vinny Green Balls]

I’ll miss him, but we were generally pretty damn entertaining the times he didn’t play last season. 

[TheBrownBottle]

4 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Yep. Ginola for us in his two seasons had 19 goals and assists in 5195 minutes. Works out at 1 goal involvement every 273 minutes.

 

ASM has 30 goals and assists over 8067 minutes, works out 1 goal involvement per 268 minutes.

 

Marginal but still fewer.

Context is important.  Ginola for that first six months was absolutely unplayable - and that’s why Barcelona tried to sign him from us.  He was kicked off the park at Highbury in the League Cup and never returned to form in 95/96.

 

The year after, he looked like he was back - until Dalglish arrived.  And that was that.

 

Ginola, for most, represented a standard we just weren’t used to seeing.  Three years before he signed we were nearly relegated to the third division - and had ‘enjoyed’ years of footballing mediocrity which make the Ashley years look halcyon.  If Ginola was 25 again and signed today his impact wouldn’t be anything like the same as it was in ‘95. 

[Wandy]

6 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Yep. Ginola for us in his two seasons had 19 goals and assists in 5195 minutes. Works out at 1 goal involvement every 273 minutes.

 

ASM has 30 goals and assists over 8067 minutes, works out 1 goal involvement per 268 minutes.

 

Marginal but still fewer.

 

Interesting. But for me Ginola was twice as good as ASM, as a player to actually watch anyway.

[HaydnNUFC]

9 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Context is important.  Ginola for that first six months was absolutely unplayable - and that’s why Barcelona tried to sign him from us.  He was kicked off the park at Highbury in the League Cup and never returned to form in 95/96.

 

The year after, he looked like he was back - until Dalglish arrived.  And that was that.

 

Ginola, for most, represented a standard we just weren’t used to seeing.  Three years before he signed we were nearly relegated to the third division - and had ‘enjoyed’ years of footballing mediocrity which make the Ashley years look halcyon.  If Ginola was 25 again and signed today his impact wouldn’t be anything like the same as it was in ‘95. 

 

I admit I'm being a minute bit facetious. People, not solely on here but across socials, have been going on about ASM being exciting and about how they will miss him but have been shot down by others saying Barnes is better because his numbers are better and that ASM was/is nowhere near the likes of Ginola, Robert, Ben Arfa etc. 

 

Which is counterintuitive as his goals and assists per 90, which are what some are using to rate Barnes as clear of ASM, are better than Ginola's whom people say ASM is nowhere near. So which is it? 

 

I don't care too much tbh. I'm sad to see ASM go and don't think he would be going if FFP didn't restrict us. But he is, we're onwards to better things. And I'll be chuffed with the window if we get a RW on top of Livramento, Barnes and Tonali.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by HaydnNUFC

[TheBrownBottle]

5 minutes ago, Wandy said:

 

Interesting. But for me Ginola was twice as good as ASM, as a player to actually watch anyway.

I remember reading Johan Cruyff saying that he could identify a great technical player through the sound his boot made when striking the ball.  Ginola was one of those players - he stroked the ball even when shooting.  He could beat a man, but never seemed in a hurry to do so.

[clintdempsey]

It is possible to love ASM as a throwback ‘artist’, a memory of how football was played when we all were little. I didn’t give a fuck about the kids kicking the ball the hardest or making all the right decisions when I was playing as a kid. I loved being on the same team as the skillful little fuckers though. There’s something to be said for dribbling 8 people before jinking the ball over the line (1 out of 10 tries).
 

It’s the romantic part of the sport that absolutely anything is possible and that can create magical moments even in dark times. ASM represented that for me during the Bruce years - he gave me something to cling on to however small or little. I will miss him hugely and would have loved for him to stay. I do think that Barnes will be good for us as well and will contribute solid numbers. But he probably won’t ignite that feeling that ASM did when picking up the ball and going full pelt towards the opposition.

 

In a way ASM is the football equivalent of the lover of years gone - it wasn’t reliable, it wasn’t always great but when she was on it hot damn you were in for a treat. Barnes would be more of of the kind of girl you settled down with - steady, missionary sex twice a week and a satisfying but somewhat predictable and ultimately plain experience. Give me the best of both worlds however… 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by clintdempsey

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

I admit I'm being a minute bit facetious. People, not solely on here but across socials, have been going on about ASM being exciting and about how they will miss him but have been shot down by others saying Barnes is better because his numbers are better and that ASM was/is nowhere near the likes of Ginola, Robert, Ben Arfa etc. 

 

Which is counterintuitive as his goals and assists per 90, which are what some are using to rate Barnes as clear of ASM, are better than Ginola's whom people say ASM is nowhere near. So which is it? 

 

I don't care too much tbh. I'm sad to see ASM go and don't think he would be going if FFP didn't restrict us. But he is, we're onwards to better things. And I'll be chuffed with the window if we get RW in top of Livramento, Barnes and Tonali.

 

 

 

I’m afraid I was always a fully fledged member of the Laurent Robert fan club - I like my tricky wingers to also have output  - many of the criticisms applied to ASM also apply to Ginola (though I also think Ginola was a better technical footballer than ASM).

 

I think Barnes makes far more sense in an Eddie Howe team - having Bruno, Willock, Big Joe and Tonali means he’s going to have ample midfielders to feed him those little one-twos he thrives off.

 

I suspect ASM likely would still be off irrespective of FFP - I just don’t think the management rate him, or perhaps it’s more fair to say he doesn’t fit with what they’re looking to do.

 

I think many of the negative reactions (certainly including mine) come from the desire to want to see Howe put together the team in his own image. 

[Vinny Green Balls]

18 minutes ago, clintdempsey said:

In a way ASM is the football equivalent of the lover of years gone - it wasn’t reliable, it wasn’t always great but when she was on it hot damn you were in for a treat. Barnes would be more of of the kind of girl you settled down with - steady, missionary sex twice a week and a satisfying but somewhat predictable and ultimately plain experience. Give me the best of both worlds however… 

 

 

 

sounds like that Grindr date Fantail Breeze had.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Vinny Green Balls

[HaydnNUFC]

4 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I’m afraid I was always a fully fledged member of the Laurent Robert fan club - I like my tricky wingers to also have output  - many of the criticisms applied to ASM also apply to Ginola (though I also think Ginola was a better technical footballer than ASM).

 

I think Barnes makes far more sense in an Eddie Howe team - having Bruno, Willock, Big Joe and Tonali means he’s going to have ample midfielders to feed him those little one-twos he thrives off.

 

I suspect ASM likely would still be off irrespective of FFP - I just don’t think the management rate him, or perhaps it’s more fair to say he doesn’t fit with what they’re looking to do.

 

I think many of the negative reactions (certainly including mine) come from the desire to want to see Howe put together the team in his own image. 

 

Given what Howe's said since his appointment regarding ASM, his place in the team in 2021-22 when he started 31 matches, this season when we slightly tweaked how we played (mid March when ASM, Isak, Murphy displaced the usual front 3 of Almiron, Wilson and Joelinton) and his affection for the club, area and fans I don't think he would be off tbh. But out of the players in the squad we have, he's probably the only one that would garner a sizeable fee that could help with FFP and that we wouldn't miss too much, as seen last season with his injuries. As there is no chance we could entertain selling any of Bruno, Isak or Botman right now.

 

But I do feel as someone who really likes ASM that there's been a mixture of revisionism about him and a refusal to give him credit on top of a perpetuation of things such as him not tracking back, working hard enough etc from some. He is what he is, he'll frustrate. If he didn't frustrate more than not he likely wouldn't have signed for us in summer 2019. But he's hella entertaining and capable of things few if any in the squad have been in his time here. I'll miss him a lot; he's the type of player you love watching and are more than happy to pay your money to go and see just like you thought with Ginola. G+A don't matter with that regard as has been pointed out. 

 

But onwards we go, we'll get better players who will hopefully he capable of what ASM could do when he's on it and then some.

[greydos]

34 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Players like ASM are very useful for lower half table sides, as a team set up to counter loves having an ASM.  Watching him run at a panicking, back-pedalling defence was always great fun. He can ‘dance’, and those players are always fun to watch.  

 

But he isn’t a top level player, and now we are a very good side and as teams sit off us, his usefulness diminishes.  And then frustration kicks in, as he sets off on runs from the middle of the pitch into a bank of eight defenders.  The player he reminds me most of when he does that is Ketsbaia - ASM is a more talented dribbler, but the outcome was usually the same. 

 

I do think that sometimes the idea of ASM outweighs the actuality.  

If we go deep in the Champs Leeg or Europa there’ll be games where we can’t high press up the pitch or sustain possession and will need Maxi. If Real were forced to play that way verse a few teams, we will be also

[greydos]

I really want Howe to have weapons. Why not give the master tactician both the best dribbler in the league and the best ‘give n go’ finisher. That’s really what’s sad and FFP is bunk!

[TheBrownBottle]

3 hours ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Given what Howe's said since his appointment regarding ASM, his place in the team in 2021-22 when he started 31 matches, this season when we slightly tweaked how we played (mid March when ASM, Isak, Murphy displaced the usual front 3 of Almiron, Wilson and Joelinton) and his affection for the club, area and fans I don't think he would be off tbh. But out of the players in the squad we have, he's probably the only one that would garner a sizeable fee that could help with FFP and that we wouldn't miss too much, as seen last season with his injuries. As there is no chance we could entertain selling any of Bruno, Isak or Botman right now.

 

But I do feel as someone who really likes ASM that there's been a mixture of revisionism about him and a refusal to give him credit on top of a perpetuation of things such as him not tracking back, working hard enough etc from some. He is what he is, he'll frustrate. If he didn't frustrate more than not he likely wouldn't have signed for us in summer 2019. But he's hella entertaining and capable of things few if any in the squad have been in his time here. I'll miss him a lot; he's the type of player you love watching and are more than happy to pay your money to go and see just like you thought with Ginola. G+A don't matter with that regard as has been pointed out. 

 

But onwards we go, we'll get better players who will hopefully he capable of what ASM could do when he's on it and then some.

Yeah, all good points well made.  I actually thought ASM was clearly working to change his game - there were times when you could see he was trying to play ‘Howe-ball’.  But it was also clear that it wasn’t a natural fit.

 

As others have said, he’s a bit of a throwback player - the type who PFM types used to talk about ‘carrying’.  The game has changed and in some ways left behind old-school wing wizards.  Output and metrics are the order of the day - so it does kill off a bit of the romance that these players imbue.

 

That said, I do also think that ASM is a player better suited to lesser sides - such as Bruce’s NUFC.  He was at NUFC for a reason, and wasn’t courted by top clubs for a reason.  I saw one of the Chronicle hacks blathering on about asking Staveley two years ago about whether they’d be building a side around ASM, as if that was a good question at all (it wasn’t Staveley’s call, for a start).  Good / great sides aren’t built around one skilful dribbler.  Some of the thinking around ASM has me a bit perplexed tbh.  Regardless, I fully agree with your final sentence.   

[Erikse]

8 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

There is liking a player, there is not wanting him to leave, and then there is suggesting that there is an injustice to him not fulfilling his destiny of playing CL football for NUFC.  First two make perfect sense to me - the latter, not a bit of it.  He’s not being dragged from the club kicking and screaming after having the thing he’d worked so hard to achieve snatched away from him.  He’s off to earn stupendous money in a league where his output won’t be criticised.  Sounds like a dream ticket to me. 

 

Maybe I phrased it to look that way, but I don't necessarily think it's injustice and that we owe him anything. I think it was the right thing to let him go now. Maybe he even wanted it himself. I just think it's a bit of a shame how it all panned out in the end with him.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Erikse

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Rich said:

All fair game these days IMO, people can post streams for all I care. Fuck the police.

Giving off ‘I’m a cool dad’ vibes

[Hanshithispantz]

Regarding Maxi's off the ball workrate, he literally sits on the floor and moans to the ref multiple times per game after being tackled, it's very likely the coaching staff have told him ad nauseum to pack that in so it's fair to assume he's just not taking things full on board like. I love Maxi and I cannot be the only one who used to watch it happen just wishing he would get the fuck up as he's essentially just working himself out of the first XI 

 

He definitely tracks back, but it's just hard to imagine him being a player someone like Howe would enjoy coaching.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hanshithispantz

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, Erikse said:

 

Maybe I phrased it to look that way, but I don't necessarily think it's injustice and that we owe him anything. I think it was the right thing to let him go now. Maybe he even wanted it himself. I just think it's a bit of a shame how it all panned out in the end with him.

 

 

 

Yeah, fair enough mate - makes sense  

[Guest reefatoon]

2 hours ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Regarding Maxi's off the ball workrate, he literally sits on the floor and moans to the ref multiple times per game after being tackled, it's very likely the coaching staff have told him ad nauseum to pack that in so it's fair to assume he's just not taking things full on board like. I love Maxi and I cannot be the only one who used to watch it happen just wishing he would get the fuck up as he's essentially just working himself out of the first XI 

 

He definitely tracks back, but it's just hard to imagine him being a player someone like Howe would enjoy coaching.

 

 

 

That’s the part of his game that really frustrated. Every time he was tackled he would do it.

[Hanshithispantz]

15 minutes ago, reefatoon said:

That’s the part of his game that really frustrated. Every time he was tackled he would do it.

It's the opposite of what you need in a counter pressing side like, it was mental 

[LV]

I thought he’d been doing less of that this year. 

[Cookie1892]

i will miss him coming on in games looking like an extra from 'The Mummy Returns'

[joeyt]

 

 

 

[RobS]

1 minute ago, joeyt said:

 

 

 

This sums it up for me. Sad to see Maxi go, but Barnes is a clear upgrade in end result, and I’d rather my team won than get to watch maxi’s tricks sadly. 

[The College Dropout]

2 minutes ago, joeyt said:

 

 

 

This is lazy journalism. ASM is a far more creative player than Barnes. He created far more chances than Barnes does. Barnes is far better in end product in terms of goals. But the final pass? Easily ASM.  

 

 

 

[Nobody]

Gordon had some quite exciting moments against Rangers early on in the second half, hopefully he can develop that side of his game and become a bit of an ASM replacement, because I really feel like we'll miss that side of ASMs game now that he's gone. We're really lackning that sort of X factor with ASM gone.