The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Wullie]

2 minutes ago, Yassassin said:

You see the war as an ‘event’? Interesting take

 

Using the definition of the word 'event', yes it's an event. 

[Kid Icarus]

19 minutes ago, triggs said:

Tbf prior to the last few months I'm not sure Abramovich or Russia were worthy of as much criticism as UAE/Saudi Arabia. Obviously how he got his money was always known to be dodgy and his links to Putin were known but Putin's reputation basically went to Hitler levels overnight but it wasn't always *that* bad

 

That's debateable like, Russia were up to much of the same as the Saudi's were, just in more of a Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy way that people aren't as repulsed by. 

[Kid Icarus]

16 minutes ago, Wullie said:

I'm not sure attending an event as a journalist counts as tacit support, not unless Clive Myrie is a big supporter of the war in Ukraine.

 

I think it depends. If they're there making the case for and reporting on sportswashing, that's a completely different story to them being there doing match reports and essentially participating in it.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

24 minutes ago, Wullie said:

I'm not sure attending an event as a journalist counts as tacit support, not unless Clive Myrie is a big supporter of the war in Ukraine.

I get your point but that’s a terrible analogy

[Wullie]

It's actually not, although there's a degree of hyperbole obviously. They're both members of the press, it's Delaney's job to cover big football events wherever they happen to take place. This is not unique to him, all football journalists who comment on us/City/Chelsea get this accusation about the World Cup, I've seen it.

 

The accusation of "oh you are happy to go to the World Cup" is to insinuate that being a football journalist is akin to basically a corporate knees-up, which it's not, any more than a journalist who goes to cover a G7 summit and gets put up in a nice hotel is on a jolly. 

[Wullie]

13 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

I think it depends. If they're there making the case for and reporting on sportswashing, that's a completely different story to them being there doing match reports and essentially participating in it.

 

But it'll only be writers in the former category who get accused of hypocrisy for doing exactly what you say they're entitled to do, and should be doing.

 

It's not the guy giving marks out of ten in The Sun that'll get stick.

[Kid Icarus]

2 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

But it'll only be writers in the former category who get accused of hypocrisy for doing exactly what you say they're entitled to do, and should be doing.

 

It's not the guy giving marks out of ten in The Sun that'll get stick.

 

I meant if they're the same person doing both (e.g. Delaney doing match reports) not separate people doing one and not the other. 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[AJ9]

Hmmm. Except sports journalism is entirely complicit in sportswashing and none of them have the self-awareness to really acknowledge that. You buy a sport, you buy fans, you do wonderful things in a sport that reporters then write or broadcast about. On the same pages there will be some article about how bad it is. I’m not saying they should stop reporting, I just think that they need to acknowledge that they are as complicit in this (if not more so) than the fans of the club. They could for instance take an ethical stance and refuse to report on us, or elevate the reporting of clubs/sports that do not have an association to these regimes, but they don’t. 
 

Edit - Ronay actually acknowledged this recently in an article about Russia and football, to his credit.

 

Second edit - see the athletic as an example. Loads of articles about human rights, the plight of LGBTQ community in SA, and then more recent articles about how great Bruno is, positive interviews with owners and Eddie Howe. All of this bought by the same money.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by AJ9

[The Merse]

34 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

That's debateable like, Russia were up to much of the same as the Saudi's were, just in more of a Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy way that people aren't as repulsed by. 

Like when they annexed Crimea and nothing was said about it when he has been inextricably linked for decades

[Wullie]

13 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

I meant if they're the same person doing both (e.g. Delaney doing match reports) not separate people doing one and not the other. 

 

But what newspaper is going to send a football journalist to a football tournament who refuses to do match reports? If e.g. Jonathan Wilson says "Yeah I'll go but I'll only send back copy about how this tournament shouldn't be going ahead and nothing about Germany's tactics against Italy, I'm not doing both", the Guardian (or any other paper other than the FT) are just going to go "uhh ok, we'll just send someone else then who will just write match reports" as ultimately that's what most people will want to read. 

 

I don't think it's the place of the press to be campaigning activists, and reporting on the sport as well as the wider issues at the same time is perfectly justifiable and not in the least bit hypocritical imo.

[Kid Icarus]

Just now, Wullie said:

 

But what newspaper is going to send a football journalist to a football tournament who refuses to do match reports? If e.g. Jonathan Wilson says "Yeah I'll go but I'll only send back copy about how this tournament shouldn't be going ahead and nothing about Germany's tactics against Italy, I'm not doing both", the Guardian are just going to go "uhh ok, we'll just send someone else then who will just write match reports" as ultimately that's what most people will want to read.

 

I don't think it's the place of the press to be campaigning activists, and reporting on the sport as well as the wider issues at the same time is perfectly justifiable and not in the least bit hypocritical imo.

 

If it's something they specialise in I don't mind if they are personally, but it clearly sticks in people's throats when some are both condemners and participants. 

 

You were talking about having our cake and eating it earlier, this is no different imo. If a journalist wants to both criticise the pawns in sportswashing and participate in it as pawns themselves - citing whatever sacrifice they're unwilling to make as their valid reason for participating in it - they're going to be just as open to finger pointing, especially from those they've criticised. 

 

'well it'll just be someone else that goes to Russia if it's not me' isn't really any different to 'well if it's not Newcastle that's taken over, it'll just be some other club'

[The Butcher]

I'm delighted Ashley's gone and I'm comfortable with Saudi ownership. 

 

 

[Guest HTT II]

42 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

But what newspaper is going to send a football journalist to a football tournament who refuses to do match reports? If e.g. Jonathan Wilson says "Yeah I'll go but I'll only send back copy about how this tournament shouldn't be going ahead and nothing about Germany's tactics against Italy, I'm not doing both", the Guardian (or any other paper other than the FT) are just going to go "uhh ok, we'll just send someone else then who will just write match reports" as ultimately that's what most people will want to read. 

 

I don't think it's the place of the press to be campaigning activists, and reporting on the sport as well as the wider issues at the same time is perfectly justifiable and not in the least bit hypocritical imo.

Can they not do both? They are there to report on Chelsea vs NUFC, but then ask our manager about politics, war, human rights, atrocities etc. Most journos and reporters are vile vultures, not one sense of decency among almost all of them, especially in sport. They can all go and fuck off. Ask questions of fans, but not of politicians? Well I’m a sports journo… then stick to the fucking name of the game! Or report on politics, or better off do both and of you happen to work for a company owned by a oligarch or with questionable investment from others, then condemn them and leave your position, or shut the fuck up!

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by HTT II

[Khalidao]

3 hours ago, The Prophet said:

 

We need journos like Delaney to keep banging the drum when it comes sportswashing and the like, but fuck me he's a hypocrite.

 

A flag of UK ally in a UK football stadium?

 

 

[Wullie]

20 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

If it's something they specialise in I don't mind if they are personally, but it clearly sticks in people's throats when some are both condemners and participants. 

 

You were talking about having our cake and eating it earlier, this is no different imo. If a journalist wants to both criticise the pawns in sportswashing and participate in it as pawns themselves - citing whatever sacrifice they're unwilling to make as their valid reason for participating in it - they're going to be just as open to finger pointing, especially from those they've criticised. 

 

'well it'll just be someone else that goes to Russia if it's not me' isn't really any different to 'well if it's not Newcastle that's taken over, it'll just be some other club'

 

But you're comparing two different cohorts of each there I think.

 

A journalist who goes to the WC, covers the football but also writes critical pieces about the hosts etc,

 

You're comparing that example with a football fan, in my post from earlier, who wants the Saudi money but won't entertain any criticism of them and in fact will actively go to bat for them. That's not a reasonable comparison with the kinds of journalists I mentioned.

[Wullie]

8 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Can they not do both? They are there to report on Chelsea vs NUFC, but then ask our manager about politics, war, human rights, atrocities etc. Most journos and reporters are vile vultures, not one sense of decency among almost all of them, especially in sport. They can all go and fuck off. Ask questions of fans, but not of politicians? Well I’m a sports journo… the. Stick to the fucking game!

 

The bit in bold is just weird, and silly. 

 

I'd love to know how a football journalist reports on Chelsea at the moment without mentioning politics. This is what I'm on about. If you're going to celebrate buying football success with money obtained through spurious political machinations, or waging war, or whatever, that's fine. But you can't complain when people ask questions! A is the price you pay for B.

 

If we don't want this in football, don't allow politicians/nation states to buy football clubs in the first place.

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

The bit in bold is just weird, and silly. 

 

I'd love to know how a football journalist reports on Chelsea at the moment without mentioning politics. This is what I'm on about. If you're going to celebrating buy football success with money obtained through spurious political machinations, or waging war, or whatever, that's fine. But you can't complain when people ask questions! A is the price you pay for B.

 

If we don't want this in football, don't allow politicians/nation states to buy football clubs in the first place.

I’m just ranting to be honest because I find a whole load of hypocrisy in most of the reporting, sportingly and politically from the other side of the press/media. For the record, I’m happy for them or anyone to ask questions, but ask the real powers that be and not some lame duck manager or some average fan who just wants to see their team play, win and has zero say on who comes and buys their club, and your last paragraph, exactly, I’d be over the moon if that happened across the board, including our own club. 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by HTT II

[triggs]

How does a football journalist ask the powers that be? Howe is essentially the face of Newcastle Utd. He's forced to do a press conference twice a week, nobody else is

[Kid Icarus]

1 minute ago, Wullie said:

 

But you're comparing two different cohorts of each there I think.

 

A journalist who goes to the WC, covers the football but also writes critical pieces about the hosts etc,

 

You're comparing that example with a football fan, in my post from earlier, who wants the Saudi money but won't entertain any criticism of them and in fact will actively go to bat for them. That's not a reasonable comparison with the kinds of journalists I mentioned.

 

I do mean it as a like-for-like comparison of the bit in bold. As in, our fans who might condemn the Saudis but will go through whatever thought process they need to to justify it to themselves because they don't want to make the sacrifice of not supporting Newcastle. Me and a fair few of us basically  

 

The thing that sticks in people's throats I think is that someone like Delaney thinks others should make sacrifices, but either doesn't seem to have done any self-reflection on the things he's unwilling to sacrifice, or has decided that his reasons are justifiable (hence the having a cake and eating it part), while our reasons aren't. 
 

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, triggs said:

How does a football journalist ask the powers that be? Howe is essentially the face of Newcastle Utd. He's forced to do a press conference twice a week, nobody else is

He’s the face of a football club, not Saudi Arabia. Or world-wide politics, or UNICEF, or Isis, or whatever. Again I am happy for anyone to ask questions, but if you are going to ask a Eddie Howe, ask every manager, every owner, every person responsible for the governance of our game that allows PIF to buy our club, our politicians who allow PIF to invest in our country etc. 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by HTT II

[triggs]

Just now, HTT II said:

He’s the face of a football club, not Saudi Arabia. Or world world-politics, or UNICEF, or Isis, or whatever. Again I am happy for anyone to ask questions, but if you are going to ask a Eddie Howe, ask every manager, every owner, every person responsible for the governance of our game that allows PIF to buy our club, our politicians who allow PIF to invest in our country etc. 

Why would you ask every manager? Eddie Howe is the manager of the team owned by Saudi Arabia. 

 

The rest of those people should be asked but they aren't obliged to sit in a press conference or respond to a journalist's request for an interview so it's difficult to ask them. Politicians should absolutely be grilled about it but not sure how a football journalist does that

[Kid Icarus]

4 minutes ago, triggs said:

How does a football journalist ask the powers that be? Howe is essentially the face of Newcastle Utd. He's forced to do a press conference twice a week, nobody else is

 

I would say that situation and how we got here is more of a concern than anything. Reminds me of how comedians became more competent political commentators than the media. 

[Guest HTT II]

I’ll put it like this regarding how journos and reporters are asking questions of fans and managers, would a reporter ask a random Muslim to condemn Isis or terrorism, what has it got to do with them? I know Howe is the manager of a football club that is owned by PIF and we are supporters of that club, but it has nothing to do with me or Howe what happens in SA or anywhere else.

 

He can, we all can, be for or against or remain totally neutral on such issues, and they are asking the right questions which is right, but to the wrong people which is wrong and that’s what pisses me off and where the real issue here lies with the hypocrisy, double standards and blatant bull shit.
 

They don’t give a fuck who owns Chelsea or rather how bad a person Abramovic was, it’s only now because of the Ukraine situation they are having their say, again it’s about being seen to be doing something…

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, triggs said:

Why would you ask every manager? Eddie Howe is the manager of the team owned by Saudi Arabia. 

 

The rest of those people should be asked but they aren't obliged to sit in a press conference or respond to a journalist's request for an interview so it's difficult to ask them. Politicians should absolutely be grilled about it but not sure how a football journalist does that

And he’s not obliged to reply to some questions these very same people will not ask of others, ideally the very people they should be, just because he’s the manager of NUFC. Let’s go and ask every fan, every player, every ex player… or do you know what, let’s ask questions of SA, our government, the FA, the PL…

[triggs]

1 minute ago, HTT II said:

I’ll put it like this regarding how journos and reporters are asking questions of fans and managers, would a reporter ask a random Muslim to condemn Isis or terrorism, what has it got to do with them? I know Howe is the manager of a football club that is owned by PIF and we are supporters of that club, but it has nothing to do with me or Howe what happens in SA or anywhere else.

 

He can, we all can, be for or against or remain totally neutral on such issues, and they are asking the right questions which is right, but to the wrong people which is wrong and that’s what pisses me off and where the real issue here lies with the hypocrisy, double standards and blatant bull shit.
 

They don’t give a fuck who owns Chelsea or rather how bad a person Abramovic was, it’s only now because of the Ukraine situation they are having their say, again it’s about being seen to be doing something…

Howe is not some "random Muslim" though. Really bad analogy. He took a very public facing job which he knew was working for Saudi Arabia