Eddie Howe

[Holmesy]

We also don't have to play 4-3-3. We could play a 4-4-1-1, 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 (which would probably suit our crop of available players better).

Sky Sports did a bit on Tuchel yesterday, highlighting the number of different formations uses, and his flexibility and willingness to try new things.

 

We play 4-3-3. That's it!

I think we've tried 5 at the back twice? 

If the current setup isn't working, why not tweak the formation before bringing the likes of Longstaff back into the first team at the expense of someone more talented?!

[TRon]

29 minutes ago, 80 said:

It isn't just the end product from forwards, although I agree with your gist.

 

It's the lack of movement, variety and coordination among the front 6. Lots of desire, but not a lot of forethought. I really hate to say it but our attacking game has given me "let's play" vibes for much of the past year. 

 

We used to have CMs getting into great scoring positions, Willock used to be a menace, but that's a rarity now. Remember Tonali crashing the box for our first goal of last season? How often do we see players even vaguely getting into that position now, let alone receiving the ball or scoring? We've become fretful and spasmodic.

 

 

 

 

Agree. Sometimes it's as simple as some players are better suited to playing a certain type of way than others. Anderson and Wood look to be a lot more productive at Forest than they were here, although it's early days and the bar is a bit lower there. But you could say the same with Longstaff in Rafa's low block formation. At least there are signs that the midfield is starting to dominate in the last couple of games, even if there is still a problem where the goals come from.

[andycap]

4 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

How have you watched our last two league games plus City and thought the press was still missing? 

I said away from home. 

[r0cafella]

1 hour ago, Holmesy said:

We also don't have to play 4-3-3. We could play a 4-4-1-1, 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 (which would probably suit our crop of available players better).

Sky Sports did a bit on Tuchel yesterday, highlighting the number of different formations uses, and his flexibility and willingness to try new things.

 

We play 4-3-3. That's it!

I think we've tried 5 at the back twice? 

If the current setup isn't working, why not tweak the formation before bringing the likes of Longstaff back into the first team at the expense of someone more talented?!

We don't really have the players to play many other systems to be honest. Our squad building had been flawed and we've made mistakes we simply couldn't afford. 

[HaydnNUFC]

Can’t make a post regarding this without making an attempt to be HTT’s replacement, but I posted the below on my personal feelings on the whole situation after the draw and performance at Bournemouth in August. Apologies for the negativity but I can’t shy away from how I feel.

 

On 26/08/2024 at 16:50, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Going to write that vent. @Kanji  This is just my own personal view, not claiming these are the thoughts of others and if others think I'm talking utter garbage feel free to call it as such and we can debate it. May even cheer me up a bit.  But I can’t shake this feeling at this current moment in time. Sign someone and I’ll probably change, such is the fickle nature of football fandom. It’s negative unfortunately though I do think that many of my feelings are based on decent(ish) foundations. Here we go, HTT-esque.

 

 

I don’t think that this current window or the 2 previous to it have been very good. I think we’ve lacked boldness for want of a better word; summer 2023 we tried to reinforce what worked in 2022/23 rather than look to augment what we had and give us something different to allow us to play and win matches in different ways. Whether that was an attacker to allow us to play between the lines, a more designated defensive midfielder to give us more control especially away from home and allow Bruno further up the pitch more often etc - numerous options that we chose not to go for. 

 

In January we were stretched for injuries admittedly, though we didn’t sell Trippier for a fee that we just won’t get the chance to take again for a soon-to-be 34 year old. We also chose not to sign a goalkeeper despite the clear hindrance Dubravka was to our defensive play last season. Almiron this season as well, we'd do incredibly well to get north of £10m for him.

 

This summer window still has time before the deadline, but we had the PSR issues sorted at the end of June. We are now at the end of August and still have not made a signing that improves the first XI. All the while the teams expected to be around us: Chelsea, Spurs, West Ham, Villa, Brighton have all improved their XIs from last season and look better for it. If we don’t sign anyone else this window has been a failure; no first XI additions/upgrades for 2 windows would be pure stagnation. Sign a CB, fine. Sign a RW, good. Sign both, fantastic. It doesn’t look like the latter will happen despite how imperative it looked once the FT whistle went at Brentford in May. In addition, regarding Marc Guehi, £65m+ is totally over paying imo and when we’ve been notoriously hamstrung by PSR recently I’ve been puzzled as to why there has been no reliable rumours of us chasing players overseas outside of Thiaw and the total non starter of Tapsoba. European markets have more value for money and don’t have their chairmen hopping onto TalkSport to talk about how their players are superstars, so I don’t understand why there’d be a reluctance to explore that market. Tosin signed for Chelsea on 1 July so we’d have had since then to look elsewhere if CB is where we’ll spend our money this window and we still don’t have one 4 and a half days before the deadline. And the RW issue has been talked about many times before; that Murphy and Almiron are still our only options there in the 2024-25 season is genuinely vexing.

 

I don’t think it's unreasonable to say that these windows backfired last season and threatens to this as well. A big part of it was sheer bad luck last season with a number of injuries and in the case of Tonali. But we have largely an inability to change it up or find other ways to win matches and that leads to a vicious spiral, definitely in last season’s case: we run players into the ground and make injuries worse, which increasingly makes our style of play ineffective and it makes Howe look naive. That problem persists now, we look to play the same way and when that doesn’t work we look like we have no semblance of a tactical plan. That has remained in matches away from home for over 12 months. As has Barnes being unable to get starts ahead of Jacob Murphy when he has been fit since February/March.

 

On Howe himself, I love the bloke and has given me my best and favourite ever days following this club. But if I’m being brutally honest I’m a lot less confident now than I was 12 months ago that he’s going to be an elite manager that consistently has us in the top 6. I absolutely pray I’m wrong about that but the way we played yesterday, continuing our largely crap away performances from last season into this and the general lack of excitement about the season gave me an ominous feeling personally. 

 

All of that has blended into how I feel at this current moment in time: I feel like we’re stagnating. I also think it’s been understated just how important of a season this is for the club: this season will dictate where the project under PIF/Howe is going. If we don’t achieve European football I think then we’ll see the likes of Isak, Gordon and Bruno wanting to move on. They’re far better than a club that isn’t in Europe. And in Isak’s case particularly, he is quite literally irreplaceable. If come this season’s end we fail to achieve Europe or we’re at a point where we look adrift from it, as sacrilegious as it feels to type out, I think I’ll want a change of manager. And I think the club will too. I’m praying that it doesn’t come to that.

 

TLDR; I feel deflated. Sign a player or players and I likely won’t be.

 

I feel exactly the same, if nothing else those feelings are more elevated now. It isn’t just 8 games, nor have the slight improvements we’ve seen over 3 league matches which are yet to yield a goal from open play given me much uplift, this stems back across nearly 18 months. A lack of tactical evolution through poor decisions made in the summer just gone and in summer 2023, a lack of ruthlessness in moving players out, a continuation into this season of poor away showings even if our trip to Goodison was better than what we are used to against an Everton side on the day with a 39 year old at LB and a midfielder RB and a loss of any identity particularly in possession wherever we play.

 

It’s the same 4-3-3 set up with a flat midfield that seems to lack balance and a totally ineffective right hand side offensively. Nigh on every week. So we end up lopsided and predictable, asking Gordon to do almost all of our positive attacking play. It results in disjointedness and a lack of real identity with the ball; there are next to no clear patterns of play in the latter 2 thirds going forward when in possession of the ball. Which in turn has led to an evaporation in our goal scoring which was the one thing we were good at last season and we continue to fail to get the best striker we’ve had in 20 years involved in most matches (despite how poor he was on Saturday). So what are we actually good at now? What are we able to rely on when the chips are down? When we finished 4th it was our defence; we currently have 5 league clean sheets in 29 games. It’s not our set pieces either, as ours have been pitiful for a while now. We don't look like a particularly well coached team; these things are the manager’s remit.

 

Reading this back as I’m writing it it seems that I’m being overtly negative even to myself but I think the primary reason for that is I can’t see a way out as it is. When the going got tough under Howe in the past I was always positive on here; when Watford scored that late equaliser at SJP in January 2022 and 25% of this forum wanted him sacked even though he only had 10 games in charge, we just had to sign the CM and CB to execute the tactical improvements he’d made up to that point. We did. When the goals dried up in January-February 2023 he just had to bring Isak in for Wilson. He did. Last season when it got really bad with the injuries December-January we just had to get the injured players back. We (sort of) did. What’s that tweak on the horizon we can make now? We’ve been mostly crap away from home for 18 months with no sign of that changing in that time injuries or not, Botman coming back may won’t change it imo as he wasn’t able to when he came back from injury the first time (Jan-March last season) and Burn has actually been superb at CB. It feels like we’re labouring from one game to the next just hoping blindly that ‘we might not be shit this week’. It’s so stale.

 

In my post Bournemouth post, I ended it with “If come this season’s end we fail to achieve Europe or we’re at a point where we look adrift from it, as sacrilegious as it feels to type out, I think I’ll want a change of manager. And I think the club will too. I’m praying that it doesn’t come to that.”

 

We’re not mathematically adrift by any means due to the season’s youth, but I don’t see us getting European football this season based on what I’ve already seen from us, those around us and what we have seen over this calendar year on and off the pitch. I posted after the match on Saturday (after a few beers admittedly) that I’d lost almost all faith in Howe. Perhaps hyperbolic, but considering everything I’ve said I don’t think I believe that he’s the man to take us forward into this next stage under PIF anymore atm. And I’m fucking devastated about it.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We're definitely not adrift, if we'd finished a chance against Brighton we'd probably be 5th. 

[Terrymac1966]

Not letting go of players at the right time is an Eddie Howe problem...the Guehi obsession is getting ridiculous ...not very impressive trying to mark a vey average striker in  Wood ....in short agreement with long post above and we look easy to score against on the counter.

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 13:28 by Terrymac1966

[JEToon]

The slight issue with, if we had beat Brighton is, if you deal in what you think a result should have been then for as much poor fortune as there was in that game, and in reality it wasn't that much it was poor finishing and a very flat last 30 minutes which is an issue when you are 1-0 down, there has been good fortune in other games to some extent, we were by no means great v Wolves, Spurs or Southampton 

 

There is as much to say the Brighton result was a result that caught up with performances. 

 

We haven't looked like the 5th best side in the county this season, at all in all honesty. 

[SUPERTOON]

22 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

Can’t make a post regarding this without making an attempt to be HTT’s replacement, but I posted the below on my personal feelings on the whole situation after the draw and performance at Bournemouth in August. Apologies for the negativity but I can’t shy away from how I feel.

 

 

I feel exactly the same, if nothing else those feelings are more elevated now. It isn’t just 8 games, nor have the slight improvements we’ve seen over 3 league matches which are yet to yield a goal from open play given me much uplift, this stems back across nearly 18 months. A lack of tactical evolution through poor decisions made in the summer just gone and in summer 2023, a lack of ruthlessness in moving players out, a continuation into this season of poor away showings even if our trip to Goodison was better than what we are used to against an Everton side on the day with a 39 year old at LB and a midfielder RB and a loss of any identity particularly in possession wherever we play.

 

It’s the same 4-3-3 set up with a flat midfield that seems to lack balance and a totally ineffective right hand side offensively. Nigh on every week. So we end up lopsided and predictable, asking Gordon to do almost all of our positive attacking play. It results in disjointedness and a lack of real identity with the ball; there are next to no clear patterns of play in the latter 2 thirds going forward when in possession of the ball. Which in turn has led to an evaporation in our goal scoring which was the one thing we were good at last season and we continue to fail to get the best striker we’ve had in 20 years involved in most matches (despite how poor he was on Saturday). So what are we actually good at now? What are we able to rely on when the chips are down? When we finished 4th it was our defence; we currently have 5 league clean sheets in 29 games. It’s not our set pieces either, as ours have been pitiful for a while now. We don't look like a particularly well coached team; these things are the manager’s remit.

 

Reading this back as I’m writing it it seems that I’m being overtly negative even to myself but I think the primary reason for that is I can’t see a way out as it is. When the going got tough under Howe in the past I was always positive on here; when Watford scored that late equaliser at SJP in January 2022 and 25% of this forum wanted him sacked even though he only had 10 games in charge, we just had to sign the CM and CB to execute the tactical improvements he’d made up to that point. We did. When the goals dried up in January-February 2023 he just had to bring Isak in for Wilson. He did. Last season when it got really bad with the injuries December-January we just had to get the injured players back. We (sort of) did. What’s that tweak on the horizon we can make now? We’ve been mostly crap away from home for 18 months with no sign of that changing in that time injuries or not, Botman coming back may won’t change it imo as he wasn’t able to when he came back from injury the first time (Jan-March last season) and Burn has actually been superb at CB. It feels like we’re labouring from one game to the next just hoping blindly that ‘we might not be shit this week’. It’s so stale.

 

In my post Bournemouth post, I ended it with “If come this season’s end we fail to achieve Europe or we’re at a point where we look adrift from it, as sacrilegious as it feels to type out, I think I’ll want a change of manager. And I think the club will too. I’m praying that it doesn’t come to that.”

 

We’re not mathematically adrift by any means due to the season’s youth, but I don’t see us getting European football this season based on what I’ve already seen from us, those around us and what we have seen over this calendar year on and off the pitch. I posted after the match on Saturday (after a few beers admittedly) that I’d lost almost all faith in Howe. Perhaps hyperbolic, but considering everything I’ve said I don’t think I believe that he’s the man to take us forward into this next stage under PIF anymore atm. And I’m fucking devastated about it.

Excellent post, sums up my feelings pretty much as well, with the added caveat that the summer window has also shafted Howe massively. (Not sure who exactly is too blame for that).

[HaydnNUFC]

6 minutes ago, SUPERTOON said:

Excellent post, sums up my feelings pretty much as well, with the added caveat that the summer window has also shafted Howe massively. (Not sure who exactly is too blame for that).

 

He was shafted but I also don't think that he's totally blameless for it. Also, he was backed in summer 2023 with a lot of money and that window is looking ever more like a missed opportunity at best and a poor window at worst as the signings made then haven't evolved us. With only Hall looking like he's genuinely improving. 

[Holmesy]

31 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

We don't really have the players to play many other systems to be honest. Our squad building had been flawed and we've made mistakes we simply couldn't afford. 

I disagree - In Trippier/Livra and Hall we have exactly the type of fullbacks we need for a 5-3-2. It also negates the glaring wonky wheel at right wing.

Kelly is perfect for the left side of a back 3, and the extra cover gives Schar license to get involved in attacking play.

Gordon or Barnes playing at 10 just behind Isak is the only question mark but they're both technically capable of playing that role.

 

I'd argue we're currently better suited to a back 5 than we are a back 4

[r0cafella]

Just now, Holmesy said:

I disagree - In Trippier/Livra and Hall we have exactly the type of fullbacks we need for a 5-3-2. It also negates the glaring wonky wheel at right wing.

Kelly is perfect for the left side of a back 3, and the extra cover gives Schar license to get involved in attacking play.

Gordon or Barnes playing at 10 just behind Isak is the only question mark but they're both technically capable of playing that role.

 

I'd argue we're currently better suited to a back 5 than we are a back 4

So you want to play with one less central midfielder who on paper are our best player. Neither barnes or Gordon are well suited to being 10s imo both are suited to attacking space and not playing in congested areas. 

 

Our recruitment has led to us being one dimensional imo. 

[nufcjmc]

He was the main man before ashworth and after ashworth was in the garden until Mitchell came along very recently. While I don't think Howe had final say he certainly had a controlling say on the direction of the team. Alarm bells rang out to be end of last season when we it came out Howe wanted Richie and dummett kept on for another year had we made Europe. 

 

I don't think Howe should have all the answers and solutions that's unfair but the narrative from a press prospective is he is very particular on what he wants to keep and what he needsthis rigidity may well end up costing his job. The club has been carried by positivity and a togetherness now a few cracks are showing and feels like we need a refresh be that players/manager/transfer approach/style of play or all of it. 

[Terrymac1966]

If he is still insistent on transfer control we are about to waste a fortune on an average centre back ...ask Chris Wood his opinion....never seen Wood with so much time and space

[Holmesy]

13 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

So you want to play with one less central midfielder who on paper are our best player. Neither barnes or Gordon are well suited to being 10s imo both are suited to attacking space and not playing in congested areas. 

 

Our recruitment has led to us being one dimensional imo. 

We're currently playing 3 CMs and we would we still be playing 3 CMs - it's the only area of the pitch where nothing would change.

[r0cafella]

2 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

We're currently playing 3 CMs and we would we still be playing 3 CMs - it's the only area of the pitch where nothing would change.

So in that case your playing with one less attacker? Isak is already isolated most of the time so I can't say im keen. 

[Holmesy]

Just now, r0cafella said:

So in that case your playing with one less attacker? Isak is already isolated most of the time so I can't say im keen. 

Yeah, that attacker being our completely redundant right winger. Hall and Trippier fill the wide areas, so in theory we're not losing any attacking prowess but it depends how under the cosh we are. 

[Danh1]

20 minutes ago, nufcjmc said:

He was the main man before ashworth and after ashworth was in the garden until Mitchell came along very recently. While I don't think Howe had final say he certainly had a controlling say on the direction of the team. Alarm bells rang out to be end of last season when we it came out Howe wanted Richie and dummett kept on for another year had we made Europe. 

 

I don't think Howe should have all the answers and solutions that's unfair but the narrative from a press prospective is he is very particular on what he wants to keep and what he needsthis rigidity may well end up costing his job. The club has been carried by positivity and a togetherness now a few cracks are showing and feels like we need a refresh be that players/manager/transfer approach/style of play or all of it. 

This is why I don’t buy the “what other style can he play with the squad we have” line. He has been the one deciding upon the transfers we have made. If he wanted to evolve our style, we would have targeted players to do that.

 

Our squad building has been very poor. Mitchell was spot on when he said what he did. 

[nufcjmc]

The longer the time goes on the more teams will see the patterns at play and start to formulate a plan to stifle or beat us depending on their own qualities. The low block is a nemesis of ours I think it was the Leeds game a couple of seasons ago we threw the kitchen sink at them and still couldn't win. 

 

I don't expect the team or individuals to never have an off day I expect a plan to counter act it when it happens most of the starting 11 are now Howes signings. I know Howe has been asked before about formations and he is adamant we do change our shape despite how obvious it is to us just don't see it right now.

 

I still am hoping for us to batter someone then go on a run but the league is getting stronger and stronger you cannot simply rely on what worked for you  before to continue to work still hoping for evolution rather than revolution but that will not carry on being my sentiment if we don't start playing like I know we can. 

[JEToon]

I am all for a manager having tactical flexibility but I think if you go 5-3-2 you very quickly regress back to the same issue we have now, which is poor recruitment and a lack of supporting goal threat around the box, and you get there very quickly. 

 

I would also question how much it actually achieves in terms of how we play anyway, Trippier, when playing, in particular is already in reality an attack loaded RWB as it is, a lot of play is loaded to him being where he would be in a 5 as a wing back anyway, the fullbacks aren't hostage to going forward they do get involved. 

 

I think if we go 5 at the back all it is really doing is putting Kelly for instance on the park at the expense of a more forwarded minded player.

 

When I picture us playing a lot of other formations it always ends with a similar issue coming back, who is scoring and it is only really 2 bodies on the park in a 5 at the back you'd put much money on, Isak and Gordon or Barnes if he was on instead of Gordon, and then really, that's it. 

 

Where we are now, by the time a 5 at the back is "coached" and drilled we will be reaching the January window anyway and would be as well holding out with what we have and making additions, it is probably where Howe is well, I don't think he is actually in a place to alter much to bring it back to a form of relevance to him specifically. 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 14:22 by JEToon

[Lush Vlad]

2 hours ago, andycap said:

I said away from home. 

Sorry, Everton was away from home no? 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 15:01 by Lush Vlad

[Weezertron]

Has anyone asked Eddie about the lowblock issue during a press conference? I'd be interested in his thought, not that he'd share much. Be disappointed if rolled out the blurb about it being about 11 players, and getting everyone playing better etc.

[andycap]

5 minutes ago, Lush Vlad said:

Sorry, Everton was away from home no? 

 

 

 

One game is that it? What about the rest over the last ten month. 

Fulham Bournemouth we never pressed. 

[TRon]

4 minutes ago, Weezertron said:

Has anyone asked Eddie about the lowblock issue during a press conference? I'd be interested in his thought, not that he'd share much. Be disappointed if rolled out the blurb about it being about 11 players, and getting everyone playing better etc.

 

Why would they ask that when they could ask if he was one of the 10 candidates interviewed for the England job?

 

 

[janpawel]

1 hour ago, Holmesy said:

I disagree - In Trippier/Livra and Hall we have exactly the type of fullbacks we need for a 5-3-2. It also negates the glaring wonky wheel at right wing.

Kelly is perfect for the left side of a back 3, and the extra cover gives Schar license to get involved in attacking play.

Gordon or Barnes playing at 10 just behind Isak is the only question mark but they're both technically capable of playing that role.

 

I'd argue we're currently better suited to a back 5 than we are a back 4

We have poor centre back depth and lots of centre mids, so I'd disagree