Eddie Howe

[bobbydazzla]

31 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

For those who are in the camp of wanting him to be sacked, I'd be curious to know what stock they put in all things not results based. Like how he represents the club publicly, his commitment to the job, how he "gets it," how he stacks up to his peers in terms of things like touchline conduct.

 

Not trying to be incendiary with the question; I'd extend it to those in the camp of wanting him to stay as well. For me, that stuff means a great deal and provides a fair amount of my reasoning for why I want him to stay. The scales would get tipped eventually or course. 

 

I'm neither Howe In or Howe Out.

 

And I'd say having a manager like Eddie, that we can be proud of, is important to me.

 

But I'd also say that:

 

1) results and overall progress matter more to me than being a great ambassador and "getting" the club.

2) other managers should be able to be a great ambassador and "get" the club. If the recruitment is done right.

 

[Superior Acuña]

I see  our league position closely matches our defensive record. We have the 14th best defensive record. All teams above us have conceded fewer goals, as well as two teams that are below us (Palace and Forest).

 

In contrast we have a better goals record than 5 teams above us, including Villa, and only one team below us is above (Bournemouth by a goal). So we're 8th for goals scored.

 

edit:

 

Wow only Forest and Wolves have scored fewer than the mackems, and that'd only be Wolves if we didn't give them two yesterday.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23 by Superior Acuña

[r0cafella]

Just now, KaKa said:

 

Then maybe discussions have to be had about what Howe wants to do this summer and how that all looks, and someone is going to have to make a call on whether they should stick with him and back him or not.

 

Me personally, I'd let him have the summer regardless and see what he can manage with Wilson, and if it goes tits up then major changes are likely need across the board anyway, and the season is likely to be a wash with or without him.

Absolutely man, a tough conversation has to be had this summer if we finish bottom half mind. 

 

It's going to be interesting, the Bournemouth lad mentioned when they started falling away the board tried to take away his power and he said fuck that and left. Wouldn't be shocked if a similar situation occured with us. 

[SUPERTOON]

Just now, r0cafella said:

Absolutely man, a tough conversation has to be had this summer if we finish bottom half mind. 

 

It's going to be interesting, the Bournemouth lad mentioned when they started falling away the board tried to take away his power and he said fuck that and left. Wouldn't be shocked if a similar situation occured with us. 

Who is having this conversation though? Isn't Wilson a friend of his?

[Jesse Pinkman]

28 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

Arguments for seem to focus around what he has done in the past, a few decent halves of football this season that ultimately came to nothing and him being a fantastic ambassador for the club (which can never be argued against). Plus the old favourite - fatigue.
 

The argument against:

• He only has one playbook (by his own admission) and when that doesn't work, it's more of the same.
• We are as defensively disorganised as we have been for a very long time and nothing seems to be changing.
• We have had two European seasons now where our league form has suffered, suggesting his style is not suited to an intense campaign on two fronts
• The signings made in the summer were not good and have set us back significantly
• We are not seeing the individual player improvements we have in the past. Maybe due to lack of time on the training pitch, but if our only answer to a congested fixture list is to not train, that points to a bigger, overarching problem.
• Our away form has been shocking for a good while
• Our performances in second halves of games this season have been consistently poor.
• His plan A only approach means in-game changes are largely limited to substitutions, which often come too late
• We cannot close out games
• We cannot retain possession, which is the key reason for the point above
• Teams are routinely getting beyond our midfield and into our defence with 1-3 passes and it isn't being addressed
• He doesn't seem good at working with a DoF
• We have consistently struggled to break down stubborn defences due to a lack of technical prowess and guile in midfield

This isn't kneejerk stuff based on a couple of results. Some of these points have been true throughout his tenure here but they have been papered over by our ability to score more than the opposition. It feels like we've been found out and Eddie's response is to keep doing the same thing until it turns around, which there is no sign of it doing.

 

Yes, there are some mitigating circumstances - Board room instability, Isak leaving, illness etc. But none of it excuses what we are seeing on the pitch, especially on the defensive side of things.

There is no lack of gratitude for what he has achieved and the memories he has given us. All of us would love him to turn it around but I just don't see how that can happen when the route causes of our problems are not being addressed.

 

Brilliant piece. 
 

Yes there are mitigating circumstances. But they don’t absolve Howe of all blame, responsibility or consequences. Hence mitigating. 
 

Ultimately Howe is paid handsomely to take responsibility for the team’s performances on the pitch and he has played a large part in the team failing in many respects this season. He even admits that himself. 

 

 

Edited March 23 by Jesse Pinkman

[bobbydazzla]

4 minutes ago, Superior Acuña said:

I see  our league position closely matches our defensive record. We have the 14th best defensive record. All teams above us have conceded fewer goals, as well as two teams that are below us (Palace and Forest).

 

In contrast we have a better goals record than 5 teams above us, including Villa, and only one team below us is above (Bournemouth by a goal). So we're 8th for goals scored.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was banging on about those exact stats on here last week. 

 

And unsurprisingly given the defensive record, we're in relegation fodder positions for both Points Gained After Going Behind and Points Dropped From Being Ahead.

 

Conclusion: We're weak as piss.

 

 

 

Edited March 23 by bobbydazzla

[r0cafella]

Just now, SUPERTOON said:

Who is having this conversation though? Isn't Wilson a friend of his?

That's the issue isn't it? And why I was so against any appointment being ran by him. Many people disagreed with me which is fine but this is the kind of issue which gets created. 

 

Still can't believe he mentioned PSR and Isak in his post match conference.  

[Nucasol]

2 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

 

I'm neither Howe In or Howe Out.

 

And I'd say having a manager like Eddie, that we can be proud of, is important to me.

 

But I'd also say that:

 

1) results and overall progress matter more to me than being a great ambassador and "getting" the club.

2) other managers should be able to be a great ambassador and "get" the club. If the recruitment is done right.

 

I’m in the middle too. I want it to be Eddie more than anything who takes the club forward but can’t shake the nagging doubts there is a ceiling for him we’re butting up against. What I can’t figure out for certain either way is whether it’s PSR to blame or his own personality / capability.

 

The unfolding car crash of nearly £200m worth of last summer’s spending doesn’t help things. PIF’s failure to address the wider project and infrastructure growth is an annoying elephant in the room too as without it, we’re hamstrung in reaching the next level.

[r0cafella]

Just now, Nucasol said:

I’m in the middle too. I want it to be Eddie more than anything who takes the club forward but can’t shake the nagging doubts there is a ceiling for him we’re butting up against. What I can’t figure out for certain either way is whether it’s PSR to blame or his own personality / capability.

 

The unfolding car crash of nearly £200m worth of last summer’s spending doesn’t help things. PIF’s failure to address the wider project and infrastructure growth is an annoying elephant in the room too as without it, we’re hamstrung in reaching the next level.

PSR is obviously a factor it would be churlish to suggest it isn't but at the same time our insistence on shopping in Waitrose doesn't help. I said I don't want to hear anymore complaints about PSR when we spend money the way we do but here we are. 

[El Prontonise]

Just now, r0cafella said:

PSR is obviously a factor it would be churlish to suggest it isn't but at the same time our insistence on shopping in Waitrose doesn't help. I said I don't want to hear anymore complaints about PSR when we spend money the way we do but here we are. 

 

£55m on elanga.  Enough said.

[Kid Icarus]

21 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

Arguments for seem to focus around what he has done in the past, a few decent halves of football this season that ultimately came to nothing and him being a fantastic ambassador for the club (which can never be argued against). Plus the old favourite - fatigue.
 

The argument against:

• He only has one playbook (by his own admission) and when that doesn't work, it's more of the same.
• We are as defensively disorganised as we have been for a very long time and nothing seems to be changing.
• We have had two European seasons now where our league form has suffered, suggesting his style is not suited to an intense campaign on two fronts
• The signings made in the summer were not good and have set us back significantly
• We are not seeing the individual player improvements we have in the past. Maybe due to lack of time on the training pitch, but if our only answer to a congested fixture list is to not train, that points to a bigger, overarching problem.
• Our away form has been shocking for a good while
• Our performances in second halves of games this season have been consistently poor.
• His plan A only approach means in-game changes are largely limited to substitutions, which often come too late
• We cannot close out games
• We cannot retain possession, which is the key reason for the point above
• Teams are routinely getting beyond our midfield and into our defence with 1-3 passes and it isn't being addressed
• He doesn't seem good at working with a DoF
• We have consistently struggled to break down stubborn defences due to a lack of technical prowess and guile in midfield

This isn't kneejerk stuff based on a couple of results. Some of these points have been true throughout his tenure here but they have been papered over by our ability to score more than the opposition. It feels like we've been found out and Eddie's response is to keep doing the same thing until it turns around, which there is no sign of it doing.

 

Yes, there are some mitigating circumstances - Board room instability, Isak leaving, illness etc. But none of it excuses what we are seeing on the pitch, especially on the defensive side of things.

There is no lack of gratitude for what he has achieved and the memories he has given us. All of us would love him to turn it around but I just don't see how that can happen when the route causes of our problems are not being addressed.

 

It's really sad to see what I would say are the far more impactful points being briefly touched upon , then a fully itemised list of grievances. Things like the mitigating circumstances just being dismissed or 'What he has done in the past' slipped in there without covering how incredible those things are, how consistent those things have been for the vast majority of nigh on 5 years, how recent those things are, then that whole bullet pointed list going into minute details. 

 

Honestly sad to see 

 

 

[r0cafella]

Just now, El Prontonise said:

 

£55m on elanga.  Enough said.

55m on Wissa  

[KaKa]

6 minutes ago, SUPERTOON said:

Who is having this conversation though? Isn't Wilson a friend of his?

 

Likely going to be the new CEO.

 

Eales was the one that brought in Mitchell to try and wrestle more control off Howe previously, and so I imagine Hopkinson will be the one to oversee things.

[The Prophet]

2 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Likely going to be the new CEO.

 

Eales was the one that brought in Mitchell to try and wrestle more control off Howe previously, and so I imagine Hopkinson will be the one to oversee things.

 

I don't think there was that much thinking behind the Mitchell appointment.

[Jesse Pinkman]

3 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

It's really sad to see what I would say are the far more impactful points being briefly touched upon , then a fully itemised list of grievances. Things like the mitigating circumstances just being dismissed or 'What he has done in the past' slipped in there without covering how incredible those things are, how consistent those things have been for the vast majority of nigh on 5 years, how recent those things are, then that whole bullet pointed list going into minute details. 

 

Honestly sad to see 

 

 

Leave Eddie Howe alone 

 

 

[Mattoon]

3 minutes ago, Jesse Pinkman said:

Brilliant piece. 
 

Yes there are mitigating circumstances. But they don’t absolve Howe of all blame, responsibility or consequences. Hence mitigating. 
 

Ultimately Howe is paid handsomely to take responsibility for the team’s performances on the pitch and he has played a large part in the team failing in many respects this season. He even admits that himself. 

 

 

 

 

I think this bit is just him being hard on himself, he doesn't shy away from responsibility. As to the rest of what you've said, I think those saying he should be sacked and those saying he shouldn't both agree on the main point, there are mitigating factors and Howe isn't absolved of any blame for them, it's just the conclusion of the outcome where the views are disproportionate. Football is a results based business and in that regard he has failed to deliver this season in the league, it all depends if you feel that is forgivable given the mitigating factors and if he deserves another chance without those factors baring down on him to go again next season and deliver those results that are required of him. For me, he's shown in the past that he is more than capable of delivering those results so I believe he has earned the right to put it right as it were.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I haven’t read anything saying Wilson was Howe’s friend. All I can see is that Wilson got in touch with Howe early on to start building a relationship. So Howe was on board with his appointment. 
 

Please link me if anything else is out there. 

[Armchair Pundit]

Definitely oversimplifying a lot there imo, I'm not having some of them as being fact either:

 

The argument against:

He only has one playbook (by his own admission) and when that doesn't work, it's more of the same.

Fair enough, but hasn't always been the case. High intensity press which was successful for us was a lot easier when we had less games.

We are as defensively disorganised as we have been for a very long time and nothing seems to be changing.

We've had far less available training time due to more games and more travelling, something that needs addressing.

We have had two European seasons now where our league form has suffered, suggesting his style is not suited to an intense campaign on two fronts.

It suggests nothing of the sort, more that we've completely over-stretched with a squad lacking in quality in depth, than anything else.

The signings made in the summer were not good and have set us back significantly.

How was that Eddie's fault? Having to bring in two strikers at short notice, essentially emergency choices, following the loss of two established strikers, one of whom Eddie was trying to build the team around.

We are not seeing the individual player improvements we have in the past. Maybe due to lack of time on the training pitch, but if our only answer to a congested fixture list is to not train, that points to a bigger, overarching problem.

So again, how is that down to Eddie if there's been no time to train and a thin squad on quality?

Our away form has been shocking for a good while

Not idea, but probably leads quite easily into the aforementioned reasons of squad depth and lack of training, again and maybe the one failing around trying to stick to a preferred setup.

Our performances in second halves of games this season have been consistently poor.

That one, maybe fatigue, maybe mental fragility, definitely needs looking at.

His plan A only approach means in-game changes are largely limited to substitutions, which often come too late

Generally, it's been more around the players being like for like than being too late in a game, but then, it's been hit and miss on whether they've been successful or not. There's been an equal amount for me where subs have paid off.

We cannot close out games

Covered by numerous previous reasons potentially, all can have an effect on it - whether that's a lack of quality depth, a lack of decent training time, issues around burn-out. It is one area though where I'd like to see us be stronger defensively.

We cannot retain possession, which is the key reason for the point above

Not really any different to the previous answer.

Teams are routinely getting beyond our midfield and into our defence with 1-3 passes and it isn't being addressed

Only really during the poor second half games from what I've seen - reasons previously mentioned affected that.

He doesn't seem good at working with a DoF

Where's the proof of that? Dan Ashworth got on alright with him, until he dicked the club over to go to Man Utd. Mitchell was a prick that just caused problems all round and there's nothing really to show Eddie isn't getting on with the current DoF.

We have consistently struggled to break down stubborn defences due to a lack of technical prowess and guile in midfield

Not sure I agree with that, the biggest problem for me has been the lack of strikers that can finish, just like at the other end having a reliable goalkeeper.

 

We have 'some' issues that Eddie needs to address, but nothing unattainable, the majority for me is outside of his control or certainly mitigated by factors outside of his control. Regardless of the amazing overachieving we've done since Eddie came onboard, the things holding us back isn't the manager.

 

For the record, if you read the above and it sets light to your hair, it's just the way I see it, in opposition to your views perhaps, but after seeing the shit times of losing managers like Keegan the first time, Sir Bobby, some of the better managers we've had, then seen them replaced by dross and regretting it massively, I'd hate to lose Eddie under similar circumstances.

 

 

Edited March 23 by Armchair Pundit

[KaKa]

Just now, The Prophet said:

 

I don't think there was that much thinking behind the Mitchell appointment.

 

It was off the back of the whole Minteh and Anderson drama and Amanda and Mehrdad leaving.

 

I think there was and it was driven by Eales who had previous with Mitchell.

[Kid Icarus]

1 minute ago, Jesse Pinkman said:

Leave Eddie Howe alone 

 

 

 

I know this is mardi gras for you, but if you could resist the temptation to keep being a weird cringe cunt for no reason that would be great, cheers

[AyeDubbleYoo]

1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

I know this is mardi gras for you, but if you could resist the temptation to keep being a weird cringe cunt for no reason that would be great, cheers

Aye it’s pathetic. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

2 minutes ago, Armchair Pundit said:

Definitely oversimplifying a lot there imo, I'm not having some of them as being fact either:

 

The argument against:

He only has one playbook (by his own admission) and when that doesn't work, it's more of the same.

Fair enough, but hasn't always been the case. High intensity press which was successful for us was a lot easier when we had less games.

We are as defensively disorganised as we have been for a very long time and nothing seems to be changing.

We've had far less available training time due to more games and more travelling, something that needs addressing.

We have had two European seasons now where our league form has suffered, suggesting his style is not suited to an intense campaign on two fronts.

It suggests nothing of the sort, more that we've completely over-stretched with a squad lacking in quality in depth, than anything else.

The signings made in the summer were not good and have set us back significantly.

How was that Eddie's fault? Having to bring in two strikers at short notice, essentially emergency choices, following the loss of two established strikers, one of whom Eddie was trying to build the team around.

We are not seeing the individual player improvements we have in the past. Maybe due to lack of time on the training pitch, but if our only answer to a congested fixture list is to not train, that points to a bigger, overarching problem.

So again, how is that down to Eddie if there's been no time to train and a thin squad on quality?

Our away form has been shocking for a good while

Not idea, but probably leads quite easily into the aforementioned reasons of squad depth and lack of training, again and maybe the one failing around trying to stick to a preferred setup.

Our performances in second halves of games this season have been consistently poor.

That one, maybe fatigue, maybe mental fragility, definitely needs looking at.

His plan A only approach means in-game changes are largely limited to substitutions, which often come too late

Generally, it's been more around the players being like for like than being too late in a game, but then, it's been hit and miss on whether they've been successful or not. There's been an equal amount for me where subs have paid off.

We cannot close out games

Covered by numerous previous reasons potentially, all can have an effect on it - whether that's a lack of quality depth, a lack of decent training time, issues around burn-out. It is one area though where I'd like to see us be stronger defensively.

We cannot retain possession, which is the key reason for the point above

Not really any different to the previous answer.

Teams are routinely getting beyond our midfield and into our defence with 1-3 passes and it isn't being addressed

Only really during the poor second half games from what I've seen - reasons previously mentioned affected that.

He doesn't seem good at working with a DoF

Where's the proof of that? Dan Stapleton got on alright with him, until he dicked the club over to go to Man Utd. Mitchell was a prick that just caused problems all round and there's nothing really to show Eddie isn't getting on with the current DoF.

We have consistently struggled to break down stubborn defences due to a lack of technical prowess and guile in midfield

Not sure I agree with that, the biggest problem for me has been the lack of strikers that can finish, just like at the other end having a reliable goalkeeper.

 

We have 'some' issues that Eddie needs to address, but nothing unattainable, the majority for me is outside of his control or certainly mitigated by factors outside of his control. Regardless of the amazing overachieving we've done since Eddie came onboard, the things holding us back isn't the manager.

 

For the record, if you read the above and it sets light to your hair, it's just the way I see it, in opposition to your views perhaps, but after seeing the shit times of losing managers like Keegan the first time, Sir Bobby, some of the better managers we've had, then seen them replaced by dross and regretting it massively, I'd hate to lose Eddie under similar circumstances.

Thank you, I couldn’t be bothered to go through every point again

[Jesse Pinkman]

5 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

I know this is mardi gras for you, but if you could resist the temptation to keep being a weird cringe cunt for no reason that would be great, cheers

Haha apologies. I was actually just trolling there for a personal giggle. I will pop off for now as it seems the Howe Out and Howe In groups have solidified their stances and are now going round in circles and will likely go on for the next 3 weeks. Let’s see what happens

 

 

Edited March 23 by Jesse Pinkman

[Holmesy]

3 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

It's really sad to see what I would say are the far more impactful points being briefly touched upon , then a fully itemised list of grievances. Things like the mitigating circumstances just being dismissed or 'What he has done in the past' slipped in there without covering how incredible those things are, how consistent those things have been for the vast majority of nigh on 5 years, how recent those things are, then that whole bullet pointed list going into minute details. 

 

Honestly sad to see 

 

 

The mitigating factors only mitigate certain things though. They don't mitigate all of it.

I fucking love Eddie. I don't think there are many more genuine, hardworking and inspirational figures in the game of football and we have been lucky to have him. And we might continue to be lucky to have him. But you can't argue that some fundamental things have to change for that to happen?
What he has achieved will never be forgotten and no amount of shit performance will erase the brilliant moments he has given us. The way he has represented the club has been a breath of fresh air after the precession of chancers and arseholes we had to endure before him. And it's fucking sad to type this stuff and feel this way but it is playing out in front of our eyes.

 

Do we place sentiment above our desire for this club to keep improving?

Could he give us another exciting season after this one? Yeah, probably. Could he do it with the same playbook as the past few season? I doubt it.

I believe we've seen enough to suggest his approach has a ceiling and I think we've already hit it and bounced off it. But I genuinely hope i'm wrong.

 

[Moose]

15 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

 

I'm neither Howe In or Howe Out.

 

And I'd say having a manager like Eddie, that we can be proud of, is important to me.

 

But I'd also say that:

 

1) results and overall progress matter more to me than being a great ambassador and "getting" the club.

2) other managers should be able to be a great ambassador and "get" the club. If the recruitment is done right.

 

 

This is the correct answer.

 

I can't bring myself to say that I want him gone but I also acknowledge that we can't go on like this.

 

We all love Eddie and we're all grateful for the journey we've been on with him but that doesn't grant him immunity from being under pressure or being relieved of his duties if push comes to shove.

I understand that there are mitigating circumstances to explain the malaise this season and I think he's been seriously undermined and let down by the clubs hierarchy but in reality I think he's taken us as far as he possibly can.

 

He deserves to start next season IMO and we'll take it from there, but other talented managers are out there and the club should have the systems and processes in place to make sure we identify his successor well