Eddie Howe

[Holmesy]

5 minutes ago, Cf said:

I haven't read the last however many pages but Howe is still my man. 

 

We're allowed a below par season. Top 5 is likely gone but Europa/Conference is still doable with a good run of form. 

 

And below par is as far as I'd go. I wouldn't go as far as bad. We got to the semi finals of the LC as holders. Knocked out by City. 5th round of FA Cup. Knocked out by City. Last 16 of CL. Knocked out by Barcelona. There's no shame in any of those results. 

 

The team is now having it's first break since January. I think since the start of the year we've played single midweek and weekend since then I believe. And with some key injuries during that time as well I believe. This isn't an excuse for patchy form - it's a reason. 

 

I'm expecting us to start looking a bit more like our old selves as we now have the luxury of a game per week like the rest of the league. Then summer obviously needs loads of work and it's time to see what difference actually having an executive team in place makes. 

 

In terms of wanting a change I can't say I get it. If a player is going through a period of poor form but you know their quality you expect them to come through it. Same with the manager. 

 

And I'm not sure who we'd get. Just look at the current "big six" managers:

 

City: Pep - Good obvs

Arsenal: Arteta - Good though seems allergic to trophies and football is turgig

Man Utd: Currently have a caretaker after previous disasters 

Liverpool: Slot - Shite, and we should expect movement here

Chelsea: Rosenior - Probably shite, and a while since they've had a good manager

Spurs: LOL

 

Outside of City/Arsenal the other four have struggled with their managerial recruitment. And it's notable that the two that are clearly above the rest are the two with long term managers. Liverpool were in that group... And then they changed their manager. 

 

Ferguson at Man Utd, Wenger at Arsenal, Moyes at Everton. There's a lot of value in long term managers. We just don't get to see it very often. 

 

If we went for a change maybe we strike lucky. But there's every chance we just end up on the managerial merry go round with everyone else. 

 

And this isn't just the better the devil you know. Howe is quality. Give him proper support off the pitch this summer and I think we can have high hopes for next season. 

There's a lot of value in long terms managers who evolve. Eddie doesn't, at all - same formation, same coaches, same playbook.
If there were signs of evolution and Eddie learning from his mistakes and adapting, I don't think there'd be a single person questioning him. But he is so rigidly wedded to his one idea of playing, despite it clearly diminishing in its effectiveness, that I think it's only right that questions are being asked.

[nufc4eva]

7 minutes ago, Cf said:

I haven't read the last however many pages but Howe is still my man. 

 

We're allowed a below par season. Top 5 is likely gone but Europa/Conference is still doable with a good run of form. 

 

And below par is as far as I'd go. I wouldn't go as far as bad. We got to the semi finals of the LC as holders. Knocked out by City. 5th round of FA Cup. Knocked out by City. Last 16 of CL. Knocked out by Barcelona. There's no shame in any of those results. 

 

The team is now having it's first break since January. I think since the start of the year we've played single midweek and weekend since then I believe. And with some key injuries during that time as well I believe. This isn't an excuse for patchy form - it's a reason. 

 

I'm expecting us to start looking a bit more like our old selves as we now have the luxury of a game per week like the rest of the league. Then summer obviously needs loads of work and it's time to see what difference actually having an executive team in place makes. 

 

In terms of wanting a change I can't say I get it. If a player is going through a period of poor form but you know their quality you expect them to come through it. Same with the manager. 

 

And I'm not sure who we'd get. Just look at the current "big six" managers:

 

City: Pep - Good obvs

Arsenal: Arteta - Good though seems allergic to trophies and football is turgig

Man Utd: Currently have a caretaker after previous disasters 

Liverpool: Slot - Shite, and we should expect movement here

Chelsea: Rosenior - Probably shite, and a while since they've had a good manager

Spurs: LOL

 

Outside of City/Arsenal the other four have struggled with their managerial recruitment. And it's notable that the two that are clearly above the rest are the two with long term managers. Liverpool were in that group... And then they changed their manager. 

 

Ferguson at Man Utd, Wenger at Arsenal, Moyes at Everton. There's a lot of value in long term managers. We just don't get to see it very often. 

 

If we went for a change maybe we strike lucky. But there's every chance we just end up on the managerial merry go round with everyone else. 

 

And this isn't just the better the devil you know. Howe is quality. Give him proper support off the pitch this summer and I think we can have high hopes for next season. 

That's a fair point about longevity, I just worry Howe is too stubborn, rigid in approach and doesn't seem to know how to fix the problems or adapt the style or implement his system to manage games better. This season we have limped along barely looking convincing while shoe horning Wolte in midfield, Playing Trippier a ridiculous amount when everyone can see he can't play at this level anymore, taking so long to drop Pope (I know we have still been conceding goals but Popes mistakes were often and horrific), playing high man marking where we just end up cut open,  gaps between defence and mid giving opposition miles of space, rigid hugging wings for Barnes/Murphy/Elanga, Chaotic pressing, 2nd half lack of any energy (burned up in first 20.mins)

[nufc4eva]

3 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

There's a lot of value in long terms managers who evolve. Eddie doesn't, at all - same formation, same coaches, same playbook.
If there were signs of evolution and Eddie learning from his mistakes and adapting, I don't think there'd be a single person questioning him. But he is so rigidly wedded to his one idea of playing, despite it clearly diminishing in its effectiveness, that I think it's only right that questions are being asked.

This is it for me if could see him trying something different would back it and understand, he just hasn't. It's more than formation the tactics just look all over the shop and in game management to stop inevitable defeat isn't there.

[nufc4eva]

6 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

All of it is pretty much what those of us who are critical have wanted addressing.  I agree, I’m not sure he’ll take all of it.  But he needs to. 

 

He's not above criticism and his bosses will demand more and should rightly.  Be interesting to see how palace game goes as that can be tricky, we walloped them last year at same time 5-1 I think, a good win would go someway to seeing improvement. A defeat and could get messy

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, nufc4eva said:

 

He's not above criticism and his bosses will demand more and should rightly.  Be interesting to see how palace game goes as that can be tricky, we walloped them last year at same time 5-1 I think, a good win would go someway to seeing improvement. A defeat and could get messy

Howe’s record vs midtable sides over the last couple of years (teams in 8th to 14th) is frankly horrific - but it would be good to get some points on the board between now and May

[nufc4eva]

Just now, TheBrownBottle said:

Howe’s record vs midtable sides over the last couple of years (teams in 8th to 14th) is frankly horrific - but it would be good to get some points on the board between now and May

Yeah it's been terrible. I also think if Tonali and Bruno are back he should adapt to a proper 4231 with Ramsey in the attacking mid place, Gordon, Elanga wide and Wolte up front rather than shoehorn a striker into midfield 3 because you won't adapt formation to players available or claim it is a 4231 which it hasn't been. Been saying this a while but not many teams go 433 like us, think Arsenal only ones that do it regularly. A 4231 with deeper kids may actually work and consider how we press and squeeze as a team lower down pitch rather than too high up which is fucking us.

[Cf]

I understand the comments about us not trying new things too much but think there's clear reasons and mitigations for this.

 

Firstly the summer was not well run. Our lack of good people at the executive level really showed here. We missed out on plenty of first choice targets and got 2nd/3rd place instead and late in the window to boot. This really hurt though I still maintain there was plenty of not getting the rub of the green at the start of the season and we could easily have been higher up the league than we were. 

 

Regardless though in the past months I'm not really sure what Howe can do to be overhauling the way we play. Again, we've played every weekend and midweek since the start of the year. That's a game every 3/4 days. Once you've taken into account travelling (across Europe as well) and R&R there'll be very little time on the training pitch to practice new systems.

 

Up until a couple of weeks ago we'd played the most football of any team in Europe. I think it's fair to say that compared to the other teams with similar numbers of games to us we were by far the least well equipped to deal with it. 

[Holmesy]

14 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

In a vacuum it does yes. In reality though im not so sure. 

 

I think we suffer as a club because we don't really have an identity or philosophy running throughout us. I mean how do you recruit players when the system may change? 

 

I think the club needs to ask itself what is it and what does it want to be? What is our DNA. apologies for sounding like our old sporting director. 

I couldn't agree more. I actually started a thread about our identity, questioning what it is - genuine question as well - but predictably, it got hijacked by the Eddie die-hards and died a death. We had one, at first team level at least. Now we just look a mess.

Again, using the most successful clubs as a benchmark - their DNA runs from the juniors all the way up to the first team, which means players in the youth setup can transition into the first team more easily - Man City, Barca, Real Madrid, Man Utd in their pomp.

And this is probably my biggest disappointment post-takeover - we are the richest club in the world but nothing we do evidences that. We don't do anything better than other teams despite having the financial resources to lead the way in whatever we want - youth development, scouting, academy setup, training facilities, strategic partnerships, technology, community involvement, infrastructure etc. I don't know where that buck stops but it does point to either lack of ambition or poor leadership at the very top.

[CheikBoom]

3 minutes ago, Cf said:

I understand the comments about us not trying new things too much but think there's clear reasons and mitigations for this.

 

Firstly the summer was not well run. Our lack of good people at the executive level really showed here. We missed out on plenty of first choice targets and got 2nd/3rd place instead and late in the window to boot. This really hurt though I still maintain there was plenty of not getting the rub of the green at the start of the season and we could easily have been higher up the league than we were. 

 

Regardless though in the past months I'm not really sure what Howe can do to be overhauling the way we play. Again, we've played every weekend and midweek since the start of the year. That's a game every 3/4 days. Once you've taken into account travelling (across Europe as well) and R&R there'll be very little time on the training pitch to practice new systems.

 

Up until a couple of weeks ago we'd played the most football of any team in Europe. I think it's fair to say that compared to the other teams with similar numbers of games to us we were by far the least well equipped to deal with it. 

This is my position as well currently. Whilst I do agree Howe has his flaws and must adapt, this season was flawed the second we lost our DoF & CEO. We've got an aging squad that needs addressing, a forward line which has had its crown jewel ripped out.

 

The criticsm Howe has rightly recieved over the past few weeks feels justified to an extent, but I do feel he has earned the right to rebuild this squad with the appropriate structure around him.

 

If Howe were to leave I genuinely don't see who comes in and does better? If anything, other teams would likely push the button on their managers to get Howe if he was available IMO.

[r0cafella]

1 minute ago, Holmesy said:

I couldn't agree more. I actually started a thread about our identity, questioning what it is - genuine question as well - but predictably, it got hijacked by the Eddie die-hards and died a death. We had one, at first team level at least. Now we just look a mess.

Again, using the most successful clubs as a benchmark - their DNA runs from the juniors all the way up to the first team, which means players in the youth setup can transition into the first team more easily - Man City, Barca, Real Madrid, Man Utd in their pomp.

And this is probably my biggest disappointment post-takeover - we are the richest club in the world but nothing we do evidences that. We don't do anything better than other teams despite having the financial resources to lead the way in whatever we want - youth development, scouting, academy setup, training facilities, strategic partnerships, technology, community involvement, infrastructure etc. I don't know where that buck stops but it does point to either lack of ambition or poor leadership at the very top.

I think the philosophy should come from regional identity and a competent sporting director. Obviously as a club we need to be playing on the front foot, I'd say we do have a tradition of that (delete the Ashley era which isn't worthy or discussion in sporting terms). 

 

I also think have a team which players with a high press suits the regional identity as well given we are basically the archetypes of going to work all week and looking forward to the game at the weekend. 

 

But other than Eddie this hasn't ever been articulated has it? I mean what is Ross Wilson doing? Did he even give an interview since his appointment? We can't pin it all on his of course but our leaders are who we look to and Eddie aside they are massively absent. 

 

 

[Conjo]

Does anyone have a link to a tactical analysis of the Sunderland game? Curious to see how we were actually set up as I've seen a lot of comments saying Howe set us up the same way he always does, while I felt like we set up quite different. More like a 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-3.

[Kid Icarus]

11 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

I couldn't agree more. I actually started a thread about our identity, questioning what it is - genuine question as well - but predictably, it got hijacked by the Eddie die-hards and died a death. We had one, at first team level at least. Now we just look a mess.

 

Hmmmm. Let's just say anyone who's interested can take a look and judge whether that happened for themselves. 

 

 

[UncleBingo]

Just read somewhere that Sunday was our 25th game since Boxing Day, which is utterly insane.

Howe could have done certain things a lot better, but I think it's ridiculous to dismiss the obvious physical/mental burnout the players (and him & his team) have experienced this season. Especially on the back of a disastrous pre-season/Isak situation. Not bringing in a couple of bodies in during January was also a massive mistake, and almost certainly not his choice.

 

Eddie in for me.

 

 

Edited March 24 by UncleBingo

[RUHRLYASLEEVESUP]

Easily solved all of this after reading the comments, all we need is a Brad Pit / Burt Reynolds clone of a manager who can sign an unknown striker from Europe who can score 30 goals a season for around £8M,  he needs to play a 4-4-fuckin 2 formation. A complete revamp of the defence & keeper who will integrate In the 4 week close season allowing the opposition to score a maximum of 10 goals next season.  A hybrid midfield of Miley, Bruno, Elliot & Minteh, same manager will need to sell Elanga & Wissa for a small profit & be Louis Theroux levels of an interviewee, same manager will need the teeth of a Hollywood A lister, & dress like Louis Vuitton.



 

[Zero]

That should be the work of Dan Ashworth. I think he did have some progress but obviously once he had gone, no one else really took up this part and just let it rot

[Beren]

One of the "for" arguments for Howe is that even if we got an Alonso, Iraola or Cesc - we've got a Howe-ball squad (however you feel about that) who are focused on being fit.

 

Although I do think there is a higher technical standard in there than what we've seen - the transition would be painful and prolonged.

[Beren]

Although where we're at losing leads to all and sundry is hardly painless, mind you.

[Holmesy]

18 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Hmmmm. Let's just say anyone who's interested can take a look and judge whether that happened for themselves. 

 

 

If you want to give it some context, paste the comments from the thread. It was a genuine question and the majority of replies were people shooting me down for criticising Eddie. There were one or two constructive comments but the majority were the usual 'what do you expect him to do?' responses.
I'm not actually sure what point you're trying to make here?

[Kid Icarus]

3 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

If you want to give it some context, paste the comments from the thread. It was a genuine question and the majority of replies were people shooting me down for criticising Eddie. There were one or two constructive comments but the majority were the usual 'what do you expect him to do?' responses.
I'm not actually sure what point you're trying to make here?

 

Well when you said that's what had happened it's not what I remembered happening, so I went and read the thread. Other people can have a read (it's a short thread) and make their own minds up, but I don't think that's what happened at all personally. 

 

 

Edited March 24 by Kid Icarus

[Tiresias]

Still Eddie in for me, but he does have to improve, I don't believe he is as inflexible but we just dont have the squad to compete season on season at full pelt, this is like the famous bielsa one season good one season bad thing. 

 

I agree some of the alternate coaches mooted would bring fresh ideas, but also they would likely see us as a stepping stone as well. Plenty would have one good season with us and jump ship. 

[Danh1]

22 minutes ago, Beren said:

Although where we're at losing leads to all and sundry is hardly painless, mind you.

Can’t be as painful as this as as you say. Losing late on to average teams, slow, boring and generally pointless football, unable to defend, create next to nowt. 

[Sid]

Seasons we compete in Europe we are stretched too thin, seasons we don't compete in Europe we are good enough to qualify for it.

 

Our finances dictate this, what a difference would a new manager make?

 

I would give him another 5 years then we will see.

 

 

Edited March 24 by Sid

[Holmesy]

7 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Well when you said that's what had happened it's not what I remembered happening, so I went and read the thread. Other people can have a read (it's a short thread) and make their own minds up, but I don't think that's what happened at all personally. 

 

 

 

It doesn't matter what you think happened - go and re-read the thread. 53 responses, tell me how many of them actually answered the question and how many were people criticising the question being asked, despite it's legitimacy.

[J7]

8 hours ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

Sounds like he can't win

 

Do mint and it's "aye, other clubs are a shambles so he hasn't really done anything special"

 

Do crap "absolute farce, even though other clubs are not a shambles and are well ran this is unacceptable and a disgrace" 

 

What about winning the league cup? Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea all a shambles so not an achievement? 

Nonsense. I said it was par, which is fine. It just wasn’t an overachievement. 15th would have had us ahead of Man Utd and Spurs. I also didn’t say anything was an absolute farce.
 

Winning the league cup was clearly brilliant given the run. 

[Kid Icarus]

1 minute ago, Holmesy said:

It doesn't matter what you think happened - go and re-read the thread. 53 responses, tell me how many of them actually answered the question and how many were people criticising the question being asked, despite it's legitimacy.

As I say, I've just read the thread. One person, dcmk told you to go to bed and asked where the thread was after the previous match (that we'd won), literally everyone else engaged with you.