Sven Botman: targeting January return (Howe)

[andycap]

4 hours ago, Nucasol said:

He won’t unless we choose to cash in as he signed a one year extension.

Didn't know he had thought it was only Krafth that signed one. 

[andycap]

4 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Has he not just signed an extension?

I didn't know about that. 

[Displayname]

58 minutes ago, arnonel said:

Why are people on here so desperate to blame people or for "heads to roll"

If you cant believe its just bad luck, which occams razor suggests is probably correct,

Can we all agree that we now have a team with the best interest of the team at heart, and even if.................even if, in the unlikely event that someone somewhere made a mistake....

We are all £$%$" human and mistakes are part of the game

Why the obsession with blaming people, pointing fingers, and being upset about it

Its a discussion forum where discussions around if our injury record is just unlucky or if there is something else going on is perfectly natural.

 

 

Edited March 21 by Displayname

[Miggys First Goal]

Lad at work is convinced this is all Eddie’s fault, that Eddie should fall on his sword, and that Jose should be brought in to replace him. 
 

Mentalist. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

1 hour ago, Displayname said:

Its a discussion forum where discussions around if our injury record is just unlucky or if there is something else going on is perfectly natural.

It is natural but it’s normally argued based on absolutely nothing. 

[Vinny Green Balls]

5 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

It is natural but it’s normally argued based on absolutely nothing. 

And despite one poster with information cleared up a lot of ambiguity a number of times, yet still a few continue on this path.

 

 

[Collage]

We might need to sign an additional CB, possibly an older, cheapish one, the Federico Fernandez type. A major upgrade on Dummett if you like. Someone who could be a 3rd-4th CB when Botman is back. Howe doesn't see Burn as a CB backup for some reason, how many games has he played there for us?

[Displayname]

46 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

It is natural but it’s normally argued based on absolutely nothing. 

Most of our opinions here is based on absolutely nothing tbf.

 

 

Edited March 21 by Displayname

[Shadow Puppets]

Most of this aligns with everything I've been told... although I would dispute his assertion (reasons below) that he's been actively playing with a "partial tear". As I've said previously, he's had regular scans over the last few months to make sure that he's fine and able to keep playing (the last one being just before the Wolves game), and every one of them has been reassuring and in the words I was told... "clear". Now, I obviously haven't seen the scans and I'm not a doctor, but I'd be highly surprised if "clear" equals "partial tear"... which leads me to believe that that part is incorrect from Downie.

 

 

[Zero]

His own words: tried his best to avoid surgery to cure the knee but ultimately failed.

 

He knew he hasn’t fully recovered since the October injury. I don’t think that needs to be questioned now, or else he would simply say it’s fucking unfortunate to pick up another knee injury within 1 season.

The “clear” sign is obviously wrong. 

[Bellis80]

32 minutes ago, Shadow Puppets said:

Most of this aligns with everything I've been told... although I would dispute his assertion (reasons below) that he's been actively playing with a "partial tear". As I've said previously, he's had regular scans over the last few months to make sure that he's fine and able to keep playing (the last one being just before the Wolves game), and every one of them has been reassuring and in the words I was told... "clear". Now, I obviously haven't seen the scans and I'm not a doctor, but I'd be highly surprised if "clear" equals "partial tear"... which leads me to believe that that part is incorrect from Downie.

 

 

Not sure how they align when you were told it was all ok and the new injury came out of the blue when Downie’s description sounds like they made every wrong decision from start to finish.

[Shadow Puppets]

11 minutes ago, Bellis80 said:

Not sure how they align when you were told it was all ok and the new injury came out of the blue when Downie’s description sounds like they made every wrong decision from start to finish.

Er, no... that's not what he's saying at all. Unless of course your agenda only allows you to hear what you want to hear.

 

These things align... 

• The injury in the Brentford game was considered very minor... a little bit of swelling and then absolutely fine. Sven felt perfectly fine, so there was no suspicion that anything was in any way seriously wrong.
• That changed in the Sheff Utd game.
• He saw 3 specialists.
• There was some level of disagreement over the severity, but ALL AGREED that rest was a perfectly acceptable course of action.
• When Sven started playing again in January, his scans were considered perfectly fine and he was cleared to play (by ALL parties).

The only difference between what Downie is saying and what I've been told is that his ongoing scans have been perfectly fine with no need for concern. I'm literally 100% sure of that, and I know with 100% conviction that Downie is incorrect on that one.

 

40 minutes ago, Zero said:

His own words: tried his best to avoid surgery to cure the knee but ultimately failed.

 

He knew he hasn’t fully recovered since the October injury. I don’t think that needs to be questioned now, or else he would simply say it’s fucking unfortunate to pick up another knee injury within 1 season.

The “clear” sign is obviously wrong. 

 

1. Yes, that's true... Sven and the club made the decision based on every specialist's recommendations and multiple ongoing scans.
2. Depends on how you define "fully recovered". It takes months of playing to feel, in your own body, "fully recovered" from any relatively complex injury, even once you're cleared to play.
3. With every complex injury, and this one is no different, you have regular ongoing scans to make sure that everything is holding up as it should. His latest scan, as of just before the Wolves game, was perfectly fine (the word I was told was "clear") and the specialists cleared him to continue playing. I know this to be 100% true... I literally have ZERO doubts.

[Erikse]

17 hours ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

It is natural but it’s normally argued based on absolutely nothing. 

 

It's based common sense from having a historicly bad injury record throughout the entire season. It would be incredibly naive to suggest that it's all just bad luck. Why was this injury not surprising at all?

[The Prophet]

Is anyone suggesting all of our injuries are all bad luck though?

[Erikse]

3 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

Is anyone suggesting all of our injuries are all bad luck though?

 

Look at what he was replying to, and what he replied. My own reply was based on that. Depends what you mean by "based on nothing" I suppose..

 

 

Edited March 22 by Erikse

[Bellis80]

10 minutes ago, Shadow Puppets said:

Er, no... that's not what he's saying at all. Unless of course your agenda only allows you to hear what you want to hear.

 

These things align... 

• The injury in the Brentford game was considered very minor... a little bit of swelling and then absolutely fine. Sven felt perfectly fine, so there was no suspicion that anything was in any way seriously wrong.
• That changed in the Sheff Utd game.
• He saw 3 specialists.
• There was some level of disagreement over the severity, but ALL AGREED that rest was a perfectly acceptable course of action.
• When Sven started playing again in January, his scans were considered perfectly fine and he was cleared to play (by ALL parties).

The only difference between what Downie is saying and what I've been told is that his ongoing scans have been perfectly fine with no need for concern. I'm literally 100% sure of that, and I know with 100% conviction that Downie is incorrect on that one.

 

 

1. Yes, that's true... Sven and the club made the decision based on every specialist's recommendations and multiple ongoing scans.
2. Depends on how you define "fully recovered". It takes months of playing to feel, in your own body, "fully recovered" from any relatively complex injury, even once you're cleared to play.
3. With every complex injury, and this one is no different, you have regular ongoing scans to make sure that everything is holding up as it should. His latest scan, as of just before the Wolves game, was perfectly fine (the word I was told was "clear") and the specialists cleared him to continue playing. I know this to be 100% true... I literally have ZERO doubts.

I heard the intial scans all showed something wrong to varying degrees, the club were happy for him to have surgery, he thought he could rest it, the other injury situations at the club played into that decision and now he’s out for another 6-9 months after playing like shit and looking nothing like he did before the injury for a couple of months.

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, Erikse said:

 

It's based common sense from having a historicly bad injury record throughout the entire season. It would be incredibly naive to suggest that it's all just bad luck. Why was this injury not surprising at all?

And also.. kind of expected.

 

This one might actually be "bad luck". It seems like there was some underlying issue that wasn't shown on scans for months.

[Conjo]

Of course all our injuries aren't down to bad luck. In general I think the club as a whole should adopt a better safe than sorry approach, and maybe listen less to players when they say they are ok to play.

 

The discussion is naturally arisen out of Botmans long term injury, but it feels very wrong to have that discussion in this thread when in this instance it seems everyone has shown caution and tried to solve the injury in the best possible manner.

[The College Dropout]

4 minutes ago, Conjo said:

Of course all our injuries aren't down to bad luck. In general I think the club as a whole should adopt a better safe than sorry approach, and maybe listen less to players when they say they are ok to play.

 

The discussion is naturally arisen out of Botmans long term injury, but it feels very wrong to have that discussion in this thread when in this instance it seems everyone has shown caution and tried to solve the injury in the best possible manner.

I mean.. you're saying "of course" now. But for months many have been using that exact line.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

4 minutes ago, Conjo said:

Of course all our injuries aren't down to bad luck. In general I think the club as a whole should adopt a better safe than sorry approach, and maybe listen less to players when they say they are ok to play.

 

The discussion is naturally arisen out of Botmans long term injury, but it feels very wrong to have that discussion in this thread when in this instance it seems everyone has shown caution and tried to solve the injury in the best possible manner.

 

This is fine except for the fact that everyone is under extreme pressure to win every game. 

[nufcjmc]

Having better quality back ups/squad players down the line will lessen the blow when players get injured and in turn make us more careful with injuries. Not suggesting the club have not been acting in the best interest of the player but in general they want to play/help the team/do well for themselves etc a better squad overall will stop a situation where as Howe has admitted himself they are asking players who arent quite right to just go again. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

3 minutes ago, nufcjmc said:

Having better quality back ups/squad players down the line will lessen the blow when players get injured and in turn make us more careful with injuries. Not suggesting the club have not been acting in the best interest of the player but in general they want to play/help the team/do well for themselves etc a better squad overall will stop a situation where as Howe has admitted himself they are asking players who arent quite right to just go again. 

 

Exactly. It's a compounding effect as well - the more injuries we got, the worse the options were, the more people might play when they would otherwise rest. 

 

 

[nufcjmc]

15 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

Exactly. It's a compounding effect as well - the more injuries we got, the worse the options were, the more people might play when they would otherwise rest. 

 

 

 

on the face of it the longstaff one is more weird/worse than the botman one if indeed this is a new injury so just bad luck. 

 

I think Howe said something along the lines he's been feeling it since Everton last season (why it wasnt addressed in the summer who knows) and then that he thinks he needs to keep playing to find his best form. No medical expert or physio but to me if your not right and haven't been for a long time its rest you need not more of the same. With longstaff I fear we could be stuck with him as knowing our luck even if someone is interested in him playing him now and potentially needing a surgery at season end could kill any transfer. 

 

I think we all agree that while you hope the list of players out and the number of long term injuries in particular (that then need weeks to get back up to speed when signed off as fit) doesnt happen again there has to be lessons learned. Burn hurting his back jumping, pope dislocated shoulder, murphy dislocated shoulder, Barnes toe are all "freak injuries". The longstaff, joelinton, botman, trippier, willock and barnes injury 2 and 3 ones I am not sure thats just down to having to go again and again. 

 

As Keith Downie has already said he classes the previous summer window as a failure which I agree.  Improving the first team and previous first team starters becoming your bench and the happy clapper cheerleaders in the squad going would have also helped. Howe said at the end of the summer window ask in 12 months how the window went rather than immediately and I dont think you need to as the injuries have highlighted or enhanced the poor window. 

 

 

Edited March 22 by nufcjmc

[Shadow Puppets]

33 minutes ago, Bellis80 said:

I heard the intial scans all showed something wrong to varying degrees, the club were happy for him to have surgery, he thought he could rest it, the other injury situations at the club played into that decision and now he’s out for another 6-9 months after playing like shit and looking nothing like he did before the injury for a couple of months.

1) yes the scans DID show something wrong to varying degrees. Correct.

 

2) the club were happy for him to have surgery… no idea… probably I guess they would have been… but I know for a fact that Sven, the club and the specialists decided on the course of action together, based on all the available info.

 

3) they ALL thought he could rest it (not just him).

 

4) as far as I’m aware the club’s injury situation didn’t play a factor in him being “rushed back” or anything. As far as I’ve been told his scans at the point he started playing again we’re perfectly fine.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

11 minutes ago, nufcjmc said:

 

on the face of it the longstaff one is more weird/worse than the botman one if indeed this is a new injury so just bad luck. 

 

I think Howe said something along the lines he's been feeling it since Everton last season (why it wasnt addressed in the summer who knows) and then that he thinks he needs to keep playing to find his best form. No medical expert or physio but to me if your not right and haven't been for a long time its rest you need not more of the same. With longstaff I fear we could be stuck with him as knowing our luck even if someone is interested in him playing him now and potentially needing a surgery at season end could kill any transfer. 

 

I think we all agree that while you hope the list of players out and the number of long term injuries in particular (that then need weeks to get back up to speed when signed off as fit) doesnt happen again there has to be lessons learned. Burn hurting his back jumping, pope dislocated shoulder, murphy dislocated shoulder, Barnes toe are all "freak injuries". The longstaff, joelinton, botman, trippier, willock and barnes injury 2 and 3 ones I am not sure thats just down to having to go again and again. 

 

As Keith Downie has already said he classes the previous summer window as a failure which I agree.  Improving the first team and previous first team starters becoming your bench and the happy clapper cheerleaders in the squad going would have also helped. Howe said at the end of the summer window ask in 12 months how the window went rather than immediately and I dont think you need to as the injuries have highlighted or enhanced the poor window. 

 

 

 

Think it’s very harsh to say the window was a failure. We can only sign so many players and we should be starting with Joelinton, Bruno and Tonali in midfield with Willock and Longstaff as options (amongst others). 
 

No realistic window could have insured us against events of this season.