Flair players and the boo-boys

[Sima]

Just now, TheHoob said:

 

I'm not one of the ones saying he's beyond criticism and he has been shite for a few months now but that's just not true. 

He’s been mostly shite since Howe came in.

[Flip]

ASM isn't immune to criticism, but he's quite clearly one of the least of our worries. Or are people going to tell me they'd rather start Almiron, Murphy, Fraser, Ritchie over him? We haven't seen what kind of damage his talent can do in a proper team. 

[LV]

2 minutes ago, reefatoon said:

Don’t get hung up on the defending bit though. His overall game has been really poor for a long time now. Too busy rolling around on the floor for ages after every tackle, whinging about every challenge, sitting there platoon style everyone he falls on his arse. It’s that parts of his game that have been pissing me off over the last couple of months. Opposition defenders see that and know they have the beating of him straight away. 

I totally agree he hasnt been great recently. Not good enough going forward for sure.

 

But I was specifically addressing the people giving him stick for being shite defensively. 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by LV

[Guest reefatoon]

Just now, LV said:

I totally agree he had not been great recently. Not good enough going forward for sure.

 

But I was specifically addressing the people giving him stick for being shite defensively. 

He had to stay with his man on that goal mind, doesn’t matter if you are not a defender or not. If you are standing with a player at one point and then he goes and you decide not too, then that just isn’t good enough, doesn’t matter what your position is on the pitch. You don’t need to be defensive minded to know to go with your runner.

[TheInfiniteOdyssey]

3 minutes ago, TheHoob said:

 

I'm not one of the ones saying he's beyond criticism and he has been shite for a few months now but that's just not true. 

Bar a couple games, I think he's been poor, markedly so for whatever reason when Howe arrived

[LV]

Just now, reefatoon said:

He had to stay with his man on that goal mind, doesn’t matter if you are not a defender or not. If you are standing with a player at one point and then he goes and you decide not too, then that just isn’t good enough, doesn’t matter what your position is on the pitch. You don’t need to be defensive minded to know to go with your runner.

Yeah I don’t agree with this. He was with the man, just reacted slower. He’s not a defender, his brain doesn’t work like a defender. Doubt he would have beaten his man in the air even if he went with him. 

[Flip]

Just now, reefatoon said:

He had to stay with his man on that goal mind, doesn’t matter if you are not a defender or not. If you are standing with a player at one point and then he goes and you decide not too, then that just isn’t good enough, doesn’t matter what your position is on the pitch. You don’t need to be defensive minded to know to go with your runner.

 

 

 You are making much more of it than what it actually was for the goal. You might as well complain of Longstaff allowing Gundo to play that ball, or Burn for being 10 feet tall and not getting to the air. It was just a very nice goal from Man City. 

 

[LV]

Just now, Flip said:

 

 

 You are making much more of it than what it actually was for the goal. You might as well complain of Longstaff allowing Gundo to play that ball, or Burn for being 10 feet tall and not getting to the air. It was just a very nice goal from Man City. 

 

I think this is it. People are frustrated with him and therefore looking to criticise everything he does or doesn’t do. 

[Big Geordie]

22 minutes ago, reefatoon said:

Can’t remember Gazza getting any stick like. I was also there.

Some supporters also have selective memories to go with their never being pleased. Who honestly will admit to giving one of the best players of his generation, stick?  Gazza got some too, during 86/87.

[Guest reefatoon]

7 minutes ago, LV said:

Yeah I don’t agree with this. He was with the man, just reacted slower. He’s not a defender, his brain doesn’t work like a defender. Doubt he would have beaten his man in the air even if he went with him. 

Don’t have to beat him at all though, stay with him and put some sort of challenge in is enough to stop a free header. You don’t have to be a defender for that, players up top close people down all the time. You are probably right about his brain, as his game against Liverpoool where he was upfront, he wasn’t closing anyone down then either which was infuriating. It’s the basics, and if he hasn’t got the brain to realise he needs to track a runner or close a player down then it doesn’t stand him in good stead.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by reefatoon

[Gawalls]

55 minutes ago, LV said:

Just seems like folk don’t understand the difference between attacking players and defensive players.

 

Give him stick for not producing as an attacker but you can’t expect him to be even an average defender 

Every post between your last one and this one commented on his passovers or general game yet you still just repeat the same defensive trait.

[Guest reefatoon]

4 minutes ago, Flip said:

 

 

 You are making much more of it than what it actually was for the goal. You might as well complain of Longstaff allowing Gundo to play that ball, or Burn for being 10 feet tall and not getting to the air. It was just a very nice goal from Man City. 

 

Eh? He left his man who had a free header to square it across for the goal. 

[LV]

1 minute ago, Gawalls said:

Every post between your last one and this one commented on his passovers or general game yet you still just repeat the same defensive trait.

Because he was getting stick for the goal originally.

 

I agree with the criticism of him going forward. 

[Gawalls]

8 minutes ago, TheInfiniteOdyssey said:

Bar a couple games, I think he's been poor, markedly so for whatever reason when Howe arrived

I’ve said loads of times that I much prefer Ryan Fraser and remember saying several times in conversation when he got injured that my biggest concern was ASM keeping his place over him.

 

 I’d much rather have him in the team right now personally.

[Tsunami]

Beardsley got stick because The Kop had sang for him to be signed and it was  an open secret that he was off there as soon as he could.

 

I can’t remember Gazza getting any stick.

 

Anyway, I wouldn’t have played ASM today, he was on a hiding to nothing. I’d have played Murphy with the instruction of stopping City getting in down that side.

 

Hope we get Wilson match fit, we looked completely different going forward once he came on.

[Flip]

Just now, reefatoon said:

Eh? He left his man who had a free header to square it across for the goal. 

 

He didn't leave his man at all, I've looked through the images and he lost track of Cancelo on a very good cross/pass from Gundo. ASM doesn't react to it as quickly, but he tries to get back to it. Absolute bollocks that he just left his man for a free header. That's a good goal, end of story. You could also say Burns positioning is very bad and he should've been there to beat Sterling that is about half his size for a header, which wouldn't be entirely true either would it? 

[Guest reefatoon]

5 minutes ago, Big Geordie said:

Some supporters also have selective memories to go with their never being pleased. Who honestly will admit to giving one of the best players of his generation, stick?  Gazza got some too, during 86/87.

Don’t remember Gazza getting stick at all. You seem to take peoples frustrations very personal with players. People say stupid things during a game, it’s all part of the frustration. You have been going as long as you say, you should know that. Don’t take it so personally.

[Guest reefatoon]

5 minutes ago, Flip said:

 

He didn't leave his man at all, I've looked through the images and he lost track of Cancelo on a very good cross/pass from Gundo. ASM doesn't react to it as quickly, but he tries to get back to it. Absolute bollocks that he just left his man for a free header. That's a good goal, end of story. You could also say Burns positioning is very bad and he should've been there to beat Sterling that is about half his size for a header, which wouldn't be entirely true either would it? 

You say “lost track of Cancelo” and doesn’t react to it as quickly”. That’s exactly what I am saying too, I said left his man, which is the same thing. Cancelo made the run and he didn’t follow at first, which means he left his man.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by reefatoon

[Fantail Breeze]

He’s just not as good as people want him to be. If he was, he wouldn’t be playing for us.

 

He’s got a wonderful style of playing football when he has the ball, but he’s limited.

 

The stick he gets is because of his contribution to goals against, which have been higher than goals scored in the last six months. Any player in those circumstances would be the same. That’s not because he does fancy step overs, that’s because he’s been shite.

 

Although it’s not his fault he is our only option and he’s pretty much undroppable because of it, so he’ll always be in the spotlight even during poor runs of form.

 

That said I think he’ll improve with Wilson and Trippier back. Reckon we’ll keep him for next season but after that he’ll end up at somewhere like Nice. He’ll do well in the French leagues, blag a move to PSG and never play.

[Big Geordie]

1 minute ago, Fantail Breeze said:

He’s just not as good as people want him to be. If he was, he wouldn’t be playing for us.

 

He’s got a wonderful style of playing football when he has the ball, but he’s limited.

 

The stick he gets is because of his contribution to goals against, which have been higher than goals scored in the last six months. Any player in those circumstances would be the same. That’s not because he does fancy step overs, that’s because he’s been shite.

 

Although it’s not his fault he is our only option and he’s pretty much undroppable because of it, so he’ll always be in the spotlight even during poor runs of form.

 

That said I think he’ll improve with Wilson and Trippier back. Reckon we’ll keep him for next season but after that he’ll end up at somewhere like Nice. He’ll do well in the French leagues, blag a move to PSG and never play.

He's already place for Nice.

 

ASM is young enough to improve through coaching and also hopefully with better players around him. Don't throw him on the scrap heap just yet.

[Guest reefatoon]

1 minute ago, Fantail Breeze said:

He’s just not as good as people want him to be. If he was, he wouldn’t be playing for us.

 

He’s got a wonderful style of playing football when he has the ball, but he’s limited.

 

The stick he gets is because of his contribution to goals against, which have been higher than goals scored in the last six months. Any player in those circumstances would be the same. That’s not because he does fancy step overs, that’s because he’s been shite.

 

Although it’s not his fault he is our only option and he’s pretty much undroppable because of it, so he’ll always be in the spotlight even during poor runs of form.

 

That said I think he’ll improve with Wilson and Trippier back. Reckon we’ll keep him for next season but after that he’ll end up at somewhere like Nice. He’ll do well in the French leagues, blag a move to PSG and never play.

Totally agree. The thing is I don’t even dislike him, he was a shining light in such a shit time, I just think he has been woefully short since Howe has come in and in no way been any benefit to how we now play. He could be so much more that’s the most annoying thing with him.

[midds]

Watching creative players express themselves and do things that mere mortals can only dream about is why we're all fans, they're the reason we follow the sport and they're the reason we pay handsomely to do so. Seeing Messi pick it up 40 yards from goal and drive at the defence or see someone like Zidane running a game without breaking sweat is the ultimate. I defy anyone to not enjoy players like that. 

 

It comes down to balancing effort and production though at the end of the day. Any player not putting in the effort and working hard in both directions runs the risk of getting stick. I think creative players get a little leeway in that respect as it's not really their main role. But if a player is neither working hard nor creating then they're going to get it from fans. I think most fans can accept a lack of ability but rarely a lack of effort. ASM is quickly falling into that category. Not end product and not working hard going back either and questions, rightly imo, are being asked about his suitability in the XI if he's neither producing or tracking back. He's not good enough to carry, he needs to get his shit in a pile asap.  

[Yassassin]

1 hour ago, Big Geordie said:

Always been an element of our support, who love having digs at flair players - I believe in my dad's day, it was the likes of Alan Suddick and Jinky Smith who used to get pelters. In the last couple of decades, we've seen the likes of Ginola, Robert and now ASM targeted when they hit poor form.

 

Whilst Ginola/Robert delivered, they were part of good sides - but still got grief about not tracking back/being lazy. ASM is a flair player and frustrating, but he's also playing in a very limited side whilst going through a patch of dodgy form. In a better side with better player around him, he will become a better player. Keep the faith.

 

It's also worth remembering that I'm old enough for to remember Gazza and Beardsley getting the bird, during the mid-late 80's. For some folk, there is no pleasing!

Robert and Ginola were adored. They left because of managers who didn’t rate them not because of fan opinion; unanimity is rare but the love of Ginola and Robert was as close as you’d get

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Yassassin

[Kid Icarus]

5 minutes ago, Yassassin said:

Robert and Ginola were adored. They left because of managers who didn’t rate them not because of &n opinion; unanimity is rare but the love of Ginola and Robert was as close as you’d get

Ginola and Robert were criticised over exactly the same things by plenty of people like. I spent most of the last year Ginola was with us defending him amongst my mates and my dad's mates. Likewise Robert, especially under Souness.

 

It's why I don't even waste my time anymore, if people are going to criticise those 2 (and Ben Arfa), no one else has a chance with those people and no amount of goals, assists, or stats in general will ever change their minds.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[maze]

HBA could come back now (as a 35 yr old) and he'd still put ASM on the bench...