João Pedro

[The College Dropout]

11 minutes ago, Bimpy474 said:

Really good player, but why do i get the feeling he'll be a two/three season of being really good, then kicks off because we wants to move on. 

 

Hope I’m wrong on that, but he certainly doesn't give me Bruno, Big Joe vibes.

Because that’s what he’s doing at Brighton. And he’s not been really good there either. 
 

In his defence Brighton almost market themselves as a springboard. The squad building is focussed on value rather than achievement. Got a bag of AM/RW and like 3 CMs and CBs

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by The College Dropout

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I mean, 2 or 3 good seasons would be more than most clubs get from most players. 

[STM]

Not counting penalties is the dumbest shit on the planet. Wonder what Brighton were doing giving such a shit player penalty duties.

[KaKa]

It amazes me that people are still talking about what the players we are looking at are doing at their current clubs.

 

If it's not clear by now that we are targeting players the staff believe are not yet the finished article, that they can get a lot more out of, then I honestly don't know what you've been following the last few years.

 

Truly baffling.

 

Howe said: “If he (a potential target) is already established, I think the wages and the financial package become difficult for us, speaking honestly. So as much as we would want (to bring in an established player) and it’s much easier for me to bring in a ready-made and established world-class player, I don’t think we’ve done that since I’ve been here because we haven’t been able to do it financially. We are not in the position of the other clubs, we have to bring them in and try and make them that (established). I don’t envisage that changes because of the PSR restraints on us.”

 

[Pata]

8 minutes ago, STM said:

Not counting penalties is the dumbest shit on the planet. Wonder what Brighton were doing giving such a shit player penalty duties.

 

Nah, there's a big difference in scoring 20 with no penalties and 20 with half of them being penalties.

[Funtime Frankie]

10 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Erm…

 

Cunha had 21 G/A - JP had 11 (non penalties). Cunha has consistently better underlying numbers among most publicly available data points. On the eye test Cunha semi consistently scored worldies - excellent long range finisher - maybe that over performance isn’t maintainable but to me - he’s done it long enough to prove he just has that superior level of ability.  JP hasn’t shown that. 
 

Both are hot heads and are questionable dressing room presences. But Cunha has shown he’s a cut above and JP hasn’t. 
 

I like JP.  Fairly unique profile. He wins physical duels. Can play 10 and 9.  Links it up, beats a man, find a pass etc.  but we are buying more of a project and you are right - Howe is the man to realise potential.  If he doesn’t tow the line and deliver he won’t play.  That German/awustrian/whatever manager was gassing him and that maybe went to his head.  

 

 

 

Pedro did play 20% or so less minutes than Cunha so stats are a bit deceiving in that way.

 

Cunha did score worldies and looks better than Pedro last season imo Cunha is at his peak and JP is only developing.

 

Also due to being younger his wage expectation will be less.

 

I hope there is truth in our desire in getting JP this window. The few scout videos I have seem especially with the Ginger lad posted earlier looks like he will fit like a glove if we are trying to break teams down.

 

I think he will play as AM against some teams or as a second striker against others. Gives us a totally different dimension.

[Thumbheed]

The more I think about this, the more excited I am. 

 

He's one of 2 players I can think of who offer that unique blend of physicality and technique that operate in that number 10 role. 

 

Our play is actually pretty 1 dimensional in the sense Isak is dependant almost exclusively on width with very little creativity coming through the centre and can often be left isolated, so having a player like Pedro who can find those pockets in the centre, draw players out of position and link up our midfield with Isak will be invaluable. 

 

Comparing G/A with another player and saying x is better than y because of the fact, is lazy analysis.

 

Have a look at the impact that player might have on other players is equally if not more important and I beleive Welbeck had his best ever goal scoring season this year. 

 

That is the real value of a player like Pedro.

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Thumbheed

[Kanj]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

I like JP but he’s not shown that X Factor Cunha has these last couple of seasons. Winning games himself. 

Cunha only became this version of himself in the last 2 seasons, with last one being his biggest jump. He is Wolves everything as of the last season+. It’s not like that at Brighton. 

[Kanj]

Also Cunha was largely a squad player with not many highlights to talk about w/r/t his game all the way up until he came to Wolves. He has moved for decent fees as the talent was always there but he’s never broken through much until that last season at Atletico where his appearance #s = JPs last season. At the same age, João Pedro outperformed Cunha offensively—especially in goal-scoring frequency and chance creation. Cunha’s contributions at Atlético were solid but less prolific.

 

Cunha is more of a finished article now because he’s older and was in a team specifically built to play with, thru and on him. 
 

 

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Kanj

[frankpingel]

Remember watching him at Watford before any links to us and thinking he looks like the epitome of the modern attacking player. Strength, balance and looking to always progress the play forward. I'd be over the moon if we sign him. 

[The College Dropout]

20 minutes ago, STM said:

Not counting penalties is the dumbest shit on the planet. Wonder what Brighton were doing giving such a shit player penalty duties.

He’s not taking penalties here. He scored 10 goals and 50% were penalties. That does suggest he’s not close to the same level of goalscorer as Cunha who scored 15 I think - all non penalties. 
 

5 minutes ago, Thumbheed said:

The more I think about this, the more excited I am. 

 

He's one of 2 players I can think of who offer that unique blend of physicality and technique that operate in that number 10 role. 

 

Our play is actually pretty 1 dimensional in the sense Isak is dependant almost exclusively on width with very little creativity coming through the centre and can often be left isolated, so having a player like Pedro who can find those pockets in the centre and link up our midfield with Isak will be invaluable. 

 

Comparing G/A with another player and saying x is better than y, because of the fact is lazy analysis.

 

Have a look at the impact that player might have on other players is equally if not more important and I beleive Welbeck had his best ever goal scoring season this year. 

 

That is the real value of a player like Pedro.

 

 

I largely agree with the points you’ve made in general.  I like his profile. But he hasn’t produced consistently, £60m is a stonking fee. Isak has scored 17 goals in a single season in La Liga and fucked up the Eredivisie as a teenager for that money. 

 

17 minutes ago, Funtime Frankie said:

Pedro did play 20% or so less minutes than Cunha so stats are a bit deceiving in that way.

 

Cunha did score worldies and looks better than Pedro last season imo Cunha is at his peak and JP is only developing.

 

Also due to being younger his wage expectation will be less.

 

I hope there is truth in our desire in getting JP this window. The few scout videos I have seem especially with the Ginger lad posted earlier looks like he will fit like a glove if we are trying to break teams down.

 

I think he will play as AM against some teams or as a second striker against others. Gives us a totally different dimension.

The underlying numbers I’ve seen are per 90 mins so total minutes don’t matter. He played enough. 
 

We both agree JP is a work in progress and part of that £60m is on potential. That’s fine if we recognise that. I’m stuck thinking £60m should get you close to the finished article. Agree I think he comes and plays 10 primarily. Eddie is the perfect manager for him. At Brighton I think he got complacent. Where I’m most sceptical is his underlying numbers aren’t great and while he plays a second striker, he’s not that creative. Moving a lot between 10 and 9 has maybe skewed his stats to neither. Even from the eye test, he’s a jinky dribbler which I love and he links well but I would like to see more creativity and line breaking passes. 

[Thumbheed]

17 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

He’s not taking penalties here. He scored 10 goals and 50% were penalties. That does suggest he’s not close to the same level of goalscorer as Cunha who scored 15 I think - all non penalties. 
 

I largely agree with the points you’ve made in general.  I like his profile. But he hasn’t produced consistently, £60m is a stonking fee. Isak has scored 17 goals in a single season in La Liga and fucked up the Eredivisie as a teenager for that money. 

 

The underlying numbers I’ve seen are per 90 mins so total minutes don’t matter. He played enough. 
 

We both agree JP is a work in progress and part of that £60m is on potential. That’s fine if we recognise that. I’m stuck thinking £60m should get you close to the finished article. Agree I think he comes and plays 10 primarily. Eddie is the perfect manager for him. At Brighton I think he got complacent. Where I’m most sceptical is his underlying numbers aren’t great and while he plays a second striker, he’s not that creative. Moving a lot between 10 and 9 has maybe skewed his stats to neither. Even from the eye test, he’s a jinky dribbler which I love and he links well but I would like to see more creativity and line breaking passes. 

 

Agree, it's a massive fee but if Pedro had torn it up in this league he wouldn't be worth just £60m.

 

Only reason Man U got Cuhna for £62.5 was because he had a clause...

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Thumbheed

[STM]

@The College Dropout

 

We wouldn't be playing JP as a number 9 here. You know that. He'd be a versatile forward player, who could do a number of jobs and would contribute way more than goals.

 

It's easy discarding penalties because he wouldn't take them here, but it's interesting that you would include the projected extra goal contributions he would get from a) playing for a better team and b) having one of the best strikers in the world in the same team which made Murphy look like fucking Beckham

 

You've said yourself what attributes he brings to the table, you've also said what Howe would do. He's 23.

 

I agree that Cunha is a better player but he had a release clause, otherwise Wolves would have got 10/15m more for him IMO.

 

JP is worth the 50/60 that i think we'd get him for. 

[The College Dropout]

9 minutes ago, Kanj said:

Cunha only became this version of himself in the last 2 seasons, with last one being his biggest jump. He is Wolves everything as of the last season+. It’s not like that at Brighton. 

Wolves did great without Cunha at the back and of the season.  
 

My fundamental point is the £60m on Cunha, you’re paying for him to repeat what he did at Wolves. For the same fee (albeit lower wages - I assume), you would want 1.5/2x more from JP which is the increase in risk of the move. And again, that’s fine, we can’t pay the wages so need to take bigger risks. 

[Hanshithispantz]

Someone said the other day João Pedro had won most of the penalties he scored, which goes some way to boosting his goal contributions if not counting the goals themselves.

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Hanshithispantz

[The College Dropout]

2 minutes ago, Thumbheed said:

 

Agree, it's a massive fee but if Pedro had torn it up in this league he wouldn't be worth just £60m.

 

Only reason Man U got Cuhna for £62.5 was because he had a clause...

 

 

 

Yea I agree. Thats the PL premium. 
 

We’ve had so much success going abroad for this type of big money player. Botman, Bruno, Tonali, Isak - it does jar a bit that we haven’t had many rumours like that.  
 

I remember loving Etikite. The eye test, the output, the underlying numbers, the profile, the fee. I was yeh this guy can go to the top. Even JP the first time.  That type of link has dried up.  
 

It is what it is I guess. 

[The College Dropout]

I know it’s sometimes a novel concept for some. But every transfer has opportunities and risks. Upsides and downsides. Pointing out an attacker linked for £60m scored 5 open play goals is worthy of discussion.  Especially as he’s not scoring loads more any other time. 
 

Likewise the supposed transfer approach is worthy of discussion too.  
 

Overall I’m for the transfer.  But I like to discuss the good I see/think and the not so good. 

[STM]

2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Yea I agree. Thats the PL premium. 
 

We’ve had so much success going abroad for this type of big money player. Botman, Bruno, Tonali, Isak - it does jar a bit that we haven’t had many rumours like that.  
 

I remember loving Etikite. The eye test, the output, the underlying numbers, the profile, the fee. I was yeh this guy can go to the top. Even JP the first time.  That type of link has dried up.  
 

It is what it is I guess. 

 

I don't think for a second we aren't looking at these players. They aren't in the public domain so much.

 

Khusanov was 6 months ago. Last year we were linked with Thiaw, who wouldn't have been at a premium price. 

 

Forgive me if this isn't accurate, as its just quick maths but I think our average transfer fee is about 39m, which isn't including the likes of Karius etc. 

 

We get linked with way more 60m+ players than we actually sign.

[STM]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

I know it’s sometimes a novel concept for some. But every transfer has opportunities and risks. Upsides and downsides. Pointing out an attacker linked for £60m scored 5 open play goals is worthy of discussion.  Especially as he’s not scoring loads more any other time. 
 

Likewise the supposed transfer approach is worthy of discussion too.  
 

Overall I’m for the transfer.  But I like to discuss the good I see/think and the not so good. 

 

I actually don't mind alot of your football takes but you will always gain people who think you are cunt if you keep including the bit in bold.

 

 

[The College Dropout]

11 minutes ago, STM said:

@The College Dropout

 

We wouldn't be playing JP as a number 9 here. You know that. He'd be a versatile forward player, who could do a number of jobs and would contribute way more than goals.

 

It's easy discarding penalties because he wouldn't take them here, but it's interesting that you would include the projected extra goal contributions he would get from a) playing for a better team and b) having one of the best strikers in the world in the same team which made Murphy look like fucking Beckham

 

You've said yourself what attributes he brings to the table, you've also said what Howe would do. He's 23.

 

I agree that Cunha is a better player but he had a release clause, otherwise Wolves would have got 10/15m more for him IMO.

 

JP is worth the 50/60 that i think we'd get him for. 

I’m not discounting the penalties - I’m putting his goal scoring into context.  10 goals is good, 5 non penalties is less impressive. And what’s worse is his underlying numbers aren’t impressive either.  He’s also no record of being prolific anywhere. 
 

His expected data is pretty much identical to Minteh per 90 and their non penalty output is similar too. I don’t think team quality is a good excuse.  Perhaps it’s the managers style? I think Howe’s direct style suits most physical and quick attackers. 

[STM]

5 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

I’m not discounting the penalties - I’m putting his goal scoring into context.  10 goals is good, 5 non penalties is less impressive. And what’s worse is his underlying numbers aren’t impressive either.  He’s also no record of being prolific anywhere. 
 

His expected data is pretty much identical to Minteh per 90 and their non penalty output is similar too. I don’t think team quality is a good excuse.  Perhaps it’s the managers style? I think Howe’s direct style suits most physical and quick attackers. 

 

He 100% fits into the managers style.

 

You often talk about data and numbers but never seem to mention how these numbers can change. What were Gordon's numbers at Everton? Im not talking goals/assists, I'm talking the other stuff. He's 23. 

 

I can only tell you what I see and I see someone with a bit of everything, power, pace, can hold up the ball, take on a man. I will concede that 60m is on the steep end but the potential there is massive. I could see him being an animal.

 

If he signs, let's look at his data in 18/24 months. Make me that deal?

[The College Dropout]

3 minutes ago, STM said:

 

He 100% fits into the managers style.

 

You often talk about data and numbers but never seem to mention how these numbers can change. What were Gordon's numbers at Everton? Im not talking goals/assists, I'm talking the other stuff. He's 23. 

 

I can only tell you what I see and I see someone with a bit of everything, power, pace, can hold up the ball, take on a man. I will concede that 60m is on the steep end but the potential there is massive. I could see him being an animal.

 

If he signs, let's look at his data in 18/24 months. Make me that deal?

I agree he fits the managers style. 
 

Gordon is a touchy subject - I still don’t think he’s that good  he’s 24 and had 1 good season in his career. I like him and I’m not in his thread trying to sell him like many others are. But if we sold him for £60m I wouldn’t feel we were robbed. The reason I think we should get more is that he’s actually delivered and players like JP are linked for £60m without delivering. I like JP’s ability more than Gordon mind. Some of his finishes and his jinkyness is excellent. But I don’t like how he hasn’t delivered consistently and has the nerve to push for a move.  At least Cunha balled out before acting a cunt and Gordon was boo’d. Gordon has shown he can hook it up mentally, JP hasn’t. As others have said if JP had we would be talking £80m+.  The PL to PL moves are mad.  

[Bimpy474]

2 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

Couldn't think of a better environment for him to come into.

 

Two Brazilian big bros to take him under their wings.

 

Think he'd thrive.

 

It's why I would/will be ecstatic to be wrong 

[Novocastrian]

Isak came on the back of a disappointing season in Spain, scored 6 in 32 or something. Joao Pedro would be an excellent signing, he’s young and will improve both his finishing and his general game.

[Conjo]

He turns 24 almost at the start of the season. Pretty big gamble if we are assuming he'll magically become a much better player here at this stage of his career.

Main reason for buying him has to be that his profile fits into Howe's plans.