Alexander Isak: has a chance to play against Everton (Howe)

[Heron]

ASM looked noticeably better in the Wolves game after about half an hour when he realised releasing the ball down the channels quick to Isak was proving far more fruitful than running with the ball. Even then he didn't pass at times when he should have, etc.

 

I think he's a talented player, but sadly his talent won't be realised because of his mentality.

 

Back to Isak though, Isak absolutely will be a player and is already proving that. He's only to get better for us in my opinion. He'll get used to the physicality and we'll build around him and free him up more to run the channels and drag defenders around. 

 

[The College Dropout]

45 minutes ago, James said:

Beyond dribbling ability I don’t think ASM is a particularly talented player

Dribbling also involves balance, agility, different types of pace.

 

ASM is also a clean striker of the ball and his left foot is pretty handy.

 

He's not great off the ball though.

 

Apart from poacher types. The most talented players by further up the pitch. I always thought Marcelo or Sergio Ramos would make decent central midfielders or 10 but they were world class for their positions that require less talent.

 

Isak has a £100m player level talent.

[Heron]

In terms of being the most talented all-round player at the club, I think it's Trippier like, for what it's worth...

[Kid Icarus]

4 minutes ago, Heron said:

In terms of being the most talented all-round player at the club, I think it's Trippier like, for what it's worth...

 

Even if he's not the most talented footballer over say Bruno, he's near enough and his leadership and example setting put him at the top for me.  

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Kid Icarus

[Heron]

Just now, Kid Icarus said:

 

Even if he's not the most talented footballer over say Bruno, he's near enough and his leadership and example setting put him at the top for me.  

 

 

 

There will be areas where Bruno and Isak and ASM etc are better or the best compared to others but I think KT does almost everything to a high level. As you correctly say, his leadership is the best of all our players, he is one of our best readers of the game, he's one of our best set piece takers, he can tackle, shoot, pass. He's outstanding.

[The College Dropout]

11 minutes ago, Heron said:

In terms of being the most talented all-round player at the club, I think it's Trippier like, for what it's worth...

If he was so talented, he wouldn't be a career right back. Comparable level players at CM and ST will be more talented imo.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by The College Dropout

[Heron]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

If he was so talented, he wouldn't be a career right back.

I think that's rubbish, personally.

 

Footballers play different positions, you can be a talented footballer without being the most skillful. Trippier is by far a better footballer than ASM for example.

[Kid Icarus]

Yeah, you can easily disprove that concept by comparing Dani Alves with Marlon Harewood. Everyone has their own strengths and it's about the level you play at. It just so happens that at Newcastle rather than Athletico Madrid or Spurs, he's right up there.

[Kid Icarus]

Dunno if it's just a case of me getting older, or learning more, but as I've got older, the stuff beyond how good a player someone is beyond physical attributes takes on much more importance. The whole leadership, setting an example, being a positive role model stuff. Supporting Newcastle, it's usually been the case that players who have those qualities almost have them as a cover for not being a particularly good player. Smith, Butt, Ryan Taylor etc.

 

Having someone like Trippier who's like that but also a really good footballer shines more of a light on how important those things actually are imo. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Kid Icarus

[The College Dropout]

The best RB in the world won't be as talented a football as a comparative RW or CM (or CB back in the days). IIRC Trippier was a failed CM, moved to RB because he was technically talented. I'm not even sure I even agree Trippier is more talented than ASM certainly not "miles more".

 

[Heron]

5 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

The best RB in the world won't be as talented a football as a comparative RW or CM (or CB back in the days). IIRC Trippier was a failed CM, moved to RB because he was technically talented. I'm not even sure I even agree Trippier is more talented than ASM certainly not "miles more".

 

The RB will be better at defending. Defending is also an art/talent.

 

To use these two as examples, ASM can only dribble better than Trippier and outrun him. Other than that Trippier is better in all aspects of his play. However, they're different players in different positions.

 

Will ASM go to a club and win things? Get in his national side regularly? Captain sides? I don't see it.

 

Attacking players will almost always be more technically gifted with the ball, I see that point, but that doesn't make them more talented footballers.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Heron

[Mike]

On 17/03/2023 at 20:33, nemtizz said:

 

That's the lockscreen sorted.

[The College Dropout]

4 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Yeah, you can easily disprove that concept by comparing Dani Alves with Marlon Harewood. Everyone has their own strengths and it's about the level you play at. It just so happens that at Newcastle rather than Athletico Madrid or Spurs, he's right up there.

Not at all. You've misuderstood.

 

Dani Alves is arguably the greatest RB of all time. Top 5 in my life time. Harewood a decent bottom half upper Champo position. That's not a comparison.

 

The Alves comparison is a comparable RW or attacker. Alves is not as talented as a top 5 RW in my lifetime. Not even top 20. Because you need to be more talented to be an elite RW than an elite RB. 

 

Talent only gets you so far mind.

[Yorkie]

2 hours ago, HawK said:

Depends on how you define 'talent',

 

As in 'speed = distance over time'; for me, 'talent = idea over execution'.

 

It's all about maximising situations through having both the innate ingenuity and speed of thought, as well as the skill and physical attributes to get it done. 

 

So, for Anderson's goal:

 

Idea: I need to get up, evade the defence, and deliver a cross. 

 

Execution: the agility to get to feet, outrageous footwork to fool the defender, followed by an inch perfect cross for the header. 

[Kid Icarus]

7 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Not at all. You've misuderstood.

 

Dani Alves is arguably the greatest RB of all time. Top 5 in my life time. Harewood a decent bottom half upper Champo position. That's not a comparison.

 

The Alves comparison is a comparable RW or attacker. Alves is not as talented as a top 5 RW in my lifetime. Not even top 20. Because you need to be more talented to be an elite RW than an elite RB. 

 

Talent only gets you so far mind.

 

You're basically saying what I'm saying - like for like and it's a different conversation to the one that we're having - about who is the most talented player in the Newcastle squad. Trippier is up there because there's no one on the same level as him or higher in our squad imo. If we were having the same conversation where he's still in a team with Suarez, Kane, Son, Modric, Dembele etc then the conversation would be totally different, but because we don't have players like that, Trippier is our elite. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Kid Icarus

[KDT]

7 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Not at all. You've misuderstood.

 

Dani Alves is arguably the greatest RB of all time. Top 5 in my life time. Harewood a decent bottom half upper Champo position. That's not a comparison.

 

The Alves comparison is a comparable RW or attacker. Alves is not as talented as a top 5 RW in my lifetime. Not even top 20. Because you need to be more talented to be an elite RW than an elite RB. 

 

Talent only gets you so far mind.

 

So basically attackers are more talented than defenders?

[The College Dropout]

3 minutes ago, Heron said:

The RB will be better at defending. Defending is also an art/talent.

 

To use these two as examples, ASM can only dribble better than Trippier and outrun him. Other than that Trippier is better in all aspects of his play. However, they're different players in different positions.

 

Will ASM go to a club and win things? Get in his national side regularly? Captain sides? I don't see it.

 

Attacking players will almost always be more technically gifted with the ball, I see that point, but that doesn't make them more talented footballers.

 

 

 

 

 

Trippier is not a defensive artist. It's not even a strength of his game. I wouldn't even describe him as a talented defender like AWB. AWB ability to shift his feet, the natural pace and acceleration, timing and technique of his tackles is a genuine talent.

 

Trippier has learnt that side of the game and he's got much better at it but it's not one of his footballing gifts. He's also learnt all the other aspects of defending well too. Same for Dani Alves, Marcelo. But ther talents aren't in defending. Someone like Rheece James has the talent to play central midfield  and centre back at a high level - I think he has numerous times actually. He's genuinely a super talent. 

 

And to Trips credit. He has the mentality to maximise his talent at the highest level. ASM doesn't. ASM won't have a better career than Trips but it's not through a lack of talent.

 

I think people under-rate how much talent it takes to be great at dribbling. Timing, balance, pace, acceleration, agility etc. these are things that are difficult to coach and learn even with a willing and capable learner. Where as most aspects to defending are easier to learn and to coach.. That's how you get career right-wingers (Ashley Young, Antonio Valencia, Jesus Navas, Nolberto Solano etc.) making good RB's later in their career as their physical gifts start to diminish. It's easier. You rarely have it happening that a RB moves forward in the game in their latter years.

 

Who would you say is more talented, Solano or Trips?

 

As i've said in other places. It takes a lot more than talent to have a succesful football career. So the career outcomes aren't tightly related. Who is more talented Gary Neville or Hatem Ben Arfa? Hatem Ben Arfa or Trippier? HBA easily.

[HawK]

13 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

As in 'speed = distance over time'; for me, 'talent = idea over execution'.

 

It's all about maximising situations through having both the innate ingenuity and speed of thought, as well as the skill and physical attributes to get it done. 

 

So, for Anderson's goal:

 

Idea: I need to get up, evade the defence, and deliver a cross. 

 

Execution: the agility to get to feet, outrageous footwork to fool the defender, followed by an inch perfect cross for the header. 

 

It's too late in the afternoon for me to revisit my DST triangle from my secondary school maths lessons

 

But if you're saying Elliott Anderson is a talented footballer, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Thumbheed]

1 hour ago, James said:

No he is a very wasteful unintelligent passer who occasionally hits a corker.

 

you can very much discount a talent if the talent doesn’t help much.

 

Sooner people realise that ASM was of similar quality to LuaLua the better.

 

I'm not his biggest fan but to compare him to Lua Lua is crazy, especially when he single handedly saved us from certain relegation twice. 

 

Also there's a reason there aren't many dribblers of his calibre around and that's because it's arguably the most difficult skill to master.

 

There's certainly charges to be made against ASM but not being isn't one of them.

[The College Dropout]

11 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

You're basically saying what I'm saying - like for like and it's a different conversation to the one that we're having - about who is the most talented player in the Newcastle squad. Trippier is up there because there's no one on the same level as him or higher in our squad imo. If we were having the same conversation where he's still in a team with Suarez, Kane, Son, Modric, Dembele etc then the conversation would be totally different, but because we don't have players like that, Trippier is our elite. 

 

 

 

Aye he's in our elite bracket. But also for more reasons than pure talent. His leadership, experience and standard setting for the whole squad is key. To me, Isak and Bruno are the most talented players in the squad. I have them as 1 and 2, not sure the order but leaning Isak. But we need an experienced leader in the dressing room, someone who has "been there done that" at the highest level to establish professional standards that the likes of Isak & Bruno can learn from. That's Trippier. But he's had to learn that side of the game too. Some players always have those leadership qualities from young and others learn it. Trips has learnt it.

[Doctor Zaius]

1 hour ago, James said:

No he is a very wasteful unintelligent passer who occasionally hits a corker.

 

you can very much discount a talent if the talent doesn’t help much.

 

Sooner people realise that ASM was of similar quality to LuaLua the better.

 

This is one of the stupidest posts I've seen in my 15 years on this forum 

[madras]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

Aye he's in our elite bracket. But also for more reasons than pure talent. His leadership, experience and standard setting for the whole squad is key. To me, Isak and Bruno are the most talented players in the squad. I have them as 1 and 2, not sure the order but leaning Isak. But we need an experienced leader in the dressing room, someone who has "been there done that" at the highest level to establish professional standards that the likes of Isak & Bruno can learn from. That's Trippier. But he's had to learn that side of the game too. Some players always have those leadership qualities from young and others learn it. Trips has learnt it.

Trippier became a different beast for being with Simeone. Same could go for Howe (I know he didn't just go there).

[The College Dropout]

14 minutes ago, KDT said:

 

So basically attackers are more talented than defenders?

Comparatively - yes. Thierry Henry is more talented than Jaap Stam, John Terry, VVD, Rio etc. Name the best PL defender and Thierry Henry is more talented.

 

 

[madras]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

Comparatively - yes. Thierry Henry is more talented than Jaap Stam, John Terry, VVD, Rio etc. Name the best PL defender and Thierry Henry is more talented.

 

 

Talented at what ?

[The College Dropout]

Like even in casual kick arounds. Sometimes you come across a player who was like RB for a non-league club. You make them the main man in your team and he's not playing RB anymore.