Alexander Isak

[Heron]

5 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

The best RB in the world won't be as talented a football as a comparative RW or CM (or CB back in the days). IIRC Trippier was a failed CM, moved to RB because he was technically talented. I'm not even sure I even agree Trippier is more talented than ASM certainly not "miles more".

 

The RB will be better at defending. Defending is also an art/talent.

 

To use these two as examples, ASM can only dribble better than Trippier and outrun him. Other than that Trippier is better in all aspects of his play. However, they're different players in different positions.

 

Will ASM go to a club and win things? Get in his national side regularly? Captain sides? I don't see it.

 

Attacking players will almost always be more technically gifted with the ball, I see that point, but that doesn't make them more talented footballers.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Heron

[Mike]

On 17/03/2023 at 20:33, nemtizz said:

 

That's the lockscreen sorted.

[The College Dropout]

4 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Yeah, you can easily disprove that concept by comparing Dani Alves with Marlon Harewood. Everyone has their own strengths and it's about the level you play at. It just so happens that at Newcastle rather than Athletico Madrid or Spurs, he's right up there.

Not at all. You've misuderstood.

 

Dani Alves is arguably the greatest RB of all time. Top 5 in my life time. Harewood a decent bottom half upper Champo position. That's not a comparison.

 

The Alves comparison is a comparable RW or attacker. Alves is not as talented as a top 5 RW in my lifetime. Not even top 20. Because you need to be more talented to be an elite RW than an elite RB. 

 

Talent only gets you so far mind.

[Yorkie]

2 hours ago, HawK said:

Depends on how you define 'talent',

 

As in 'speed = distance over time'; for me, 'talent = idea over execution'.

 

It's all about maximising situations through having both the innate ingenuity and speed of thought, as well as the skill and physical attributes to get it done. 

 

So, for Anderson's goal:

 

Idea: I need to get up, evade the defence, and deliver a cross. 

 

Execution: the agility to get to feet, outrageous footwork to fool the defender, followed by an inch perfect cross for the header. 

[Kid Icarus]

7 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Not at all. You've misuderstood.

 

Dani Alves is arguably the greatest RB of all time. Top 5 in my life time. Harewood a decent bottom half upper Champo position. That's not a comparison.

 

The Alves comparison is a comparable RW or attacker. Alves is not as talented as a top 5 RW in my lifetime. Not even top 20. Because you need to be more talented to be an elite RW than an elite RB. 

 

Talent only gets you so far mind.

 

You're basically saying what I'm saying - like for like and it's a different conversation to the one that we're having - about who is the most talented player in the Newcastle squad. Trippier is up there because there's no one on the same level as him or higher in our squad imo. If we were having the same conversation where he's still in a team with Suarez, Kane, Son, Modric, Dembele etc then the conversation would be totally different, but because we don't have players like that, Trippier is our elite. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Kid Icarus

[KDT]

7 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Not at all. You've misuderstood.

 

Dani Alves is arguably the greatest RB of all time. Top 5 in my life time. Harewood a decent bottom half upper Champo position. That's not a comparison.

 

The Alves comparison is a comparable RW or attacker. Alves is not as talented as a top 5 RW in my lifetime. Not even top 20. Because you need to be more talented to be an elite RW than an elite RB. 

 

Talent only gets you so far mind.

 

So basically attackers are more talented than defenders?

[The College Dropout]

3 minutes ago, Heron said:

The RB will be better at defending. Defending is also an art/talent.

 

To use these two as examples, ASM can only dribble better than Trippier and outrun him. Other than that Trippier is better in all aspects of his play. However, they're different players in different positions.

 

Will ASM go to a club and win things? Get in his national side regularly? Captain sides? I don't see it.

 

Attacking players will almost always be more technically gifted with the ball, I see that point, but that doesn't make them more talented footballers.

 

 

 

 

 

Trippier is not a defensive artist. It's not even a strength of his game. I wouldn't even describe him as a talented defender like AWB. AWB ability to shift his feet, the natural pace and acceleration, timing and technique of his tackles is a genuine talent.

 

Trippier has learnt that side of the game and he's got much better at it but it's not one of his footballing gifts. He's also learnt all the other aspects of defending well too. Same for Dani Alves, Marcelo. But ther talents aren't in defending. Someone like Rheece James has the talent to play central midfield  and centre back at a high level - I think he has numerous times actually. He's genuinely a super talent. 

 

And to Trips credit. He has the mentality to maximise his talent at the highest level. ASM doesn't. ASM won't have a better career than Trips but it's not through a lack of talent.

 

I think people under-rate how much talent it takes to be great at dribbling. Timing, balance, pace, acceleration, agility etc. these are things that are difficult to coach and learn even with a willing and capable learner. Where as most aspects to defending are easier to learn and to coach.. That's how you get career right-wingers (Ashley Young, Antonio Valencia, Jesus Navas, Nolberto Solano etc.) making good RB's later in their career as their physical gifts start to diminish. It's easier. You rarely have it happening that a RB moves forward in the game in their latter years.

 

Who would you say is more talented, Solano or Trips?

 

As i've said in other places. It takes a lot more than talent to have a succesful football career. So the career outcomes aren't tightly related. Who is more talented Gary Neville or Hatem Ben Arfa? Hatem Ben Arfa or Trippier? HBA easily.

[HawK]

13 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

As in 'speed = distance over time'; for me, 'talent = idea over execution'.

 

It's all about maximising situations through having both the innate ingenuity and speed of thought, as well as the skill and physical attributes to get it done. 

 

So, for Anderson's goal:

 

Idea: I need to get up, evade the defence, and deliver a cross. 

 

Execution: the agility to get to feet, outrageous footwork to fool the defender, followed by an inch perfect cross for the header. 

 

It's too late in the afternoon for me to revisit my DST triangle from my secondary school maths lessons

 

But if you're saying Elliott Anderson is a talented footballer, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Thumbheed]

1 hour ago, James said:

No he is a very wasteful unintelligent passer who occasionally hits a corker.

 

you can very much discount a talent if the talent doesn’t help much.

 

Sooner people realise that ASM was of similar quality to LuaLua the better.

 

I'm not his biggest fan but to compare him to Lua Lua is crazy, especially when he single handedly saved us from certain relegation twice. 

 

Also there's a reason there aren't many dribblers of his calibre around and that's because it's arguably the most difficult skill to master.

 

There's certainly charges to be made against ASM but not being isn't one of them.

[The College Dropout]

11 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

You're basically saying what I'm saying - like for like and it's a different conversation to the one that we're having - about who is the most talented player in the Newcastle squad. Trippier is up there because there's no one on the same level as him or higher in our squad imo. If we were having the same conversation where he's still in a team with Suarez, Kane, Son, Modric, Dembele etc then the conversation would be totally different, but because we don't have players like that, Trippier is our elite. 

 

 

 

Aye he's in our elite bracket. But also for more reasons than pure talent. His leadership, experience and standard setting for the whole squad is key. To me, Isak and Bruno are the most talented players in the squad. I have them as 1 and 2, not sure the order but leaning Isak. But we need an experienced leader in the dressing room, someone who has "been there done that" at the highest level to establish professional standards that the likes of Isak & Bruno can learn from. That's Trippier. But he's had to learn that side of the game too. Some players always have those leadership qualities from young and others learn it. Trips has learnt it.

[Doctor Zaius]

1 hour ago, James said:

No he is a very wasteful unintelligent passer who occasionally hits a corker.

 

you can very much discount a talent if the talent doesn’t help much.

 

Sooner people realise that ASM was of similar quality to LuaLua the better.

 

This is one of the stupidest posts I've seen in my 15 years on this forum 

[madras]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

Aye he's in our elite bracket. But also for more reasons than pure talent. His leadership, experience and standard setting for the whole squad is key. To me, Isak and Bruno are the most talented players in the squad. I have them as 1 and 2, not sure the order but leaning Isak. But we need an experienced leader in the dressing room, someone who has "been there done that" at the highest level to establish professional standards that the likes of Isak & Bruno can learn from. That's Trippier. But he's had to learn that side of the game too. Some players always have those leadership qualities from young and others learn it. Trips has learnt it.

Trippier became a different beast for being with Simeone. Same could go for Howe (I know he didn't just go there).

[The College Dropout]

14 minutes ago, KDT said:

 

So basically attackers are more talented than defenders?

Comparatively - yes. Thierry Henry is more talented than Jaap Stam, John Terry, VVD, Rio etc. Name the best PL defender and Thierry Henry is more talented.

 

 

[madras]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

Comparatively - yes. Thierry Henry is more talented than Jaap Stam, John Terry, VVD, Rio etc. Name the best PL defender and Thierry Henry is more talented.

 

 

Talented at what ?

[The College Dropout]

Like even in casual kick arounds. Sometimes you come across a player who was like RB for a non-league club. You make them the main man in your team and he's not playing RB anymore.

[The College Dropout]

Just now, madras said:

Talented at what ?

Football.

 

The hardest thing in the game is to control and score. The most talented players do the hardest things.

[Hanshithispantz]

Said it loads but Maxi is one of our most dangerous passers in the final 3rd. It’s not even like it’s a hard attribute to spot, he consistently sets it up on a plate for people.

 

His fitness is his major drawback.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Hanshithispantz

[KDT]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

Like even in casual kick arounds. Sometimes you come across a player who was like RB for a non-league club. You make them the main man in your team and he's not playing RB anymore.

 

Because then the overall ability level of players isn't comparable. The non-league player is better by far at a number of different metrics. 

[sushimonster85]

I think there was an argument 25+ years ago to say you had to have more talent as an attacking player than you did as a defensive one. But I'd say these days that's no longer the case, and in fact if anything the modern 'full back' has to be one of the most talented players on the pitch, or at least the one with the widest skillset. 

 

It's still a bit daft to try and directly compare forwards and defenders mind. I take the point about Henry being more talented than any PL CB. But Cannavaro's career spanned a similar time to Henry's and I think there's a discussion to be had there certainly. 

[madras]

2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Football.

 

The hardest thing in the game is to control and score. The most talented players do the hardest things.

That's interesting because the defenders win vastly more of the battles. Forwards get the glory though and it's a media game.

[Kid Icarus]

'scoring is the hardest thing to do in football' was one of my recent football pet hates. I really don't think it is, for me it's dribbling past defenders that know what they're doing when you can't just rely on pace. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Kid Icarus

[madras]

6 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

'scoring is the hardest thing to do in football' was one of my recent football pet hates. I really don't think it is, for me it's dribbling past defenders that know what they're doing when you can't just rely on pace. 

 

 

 

For me it was doing the right thing well. Passing was massively underrated because it wasn't spectacular. The most beautiful thing for me in football is that one touch that controls the ball and puts it in the right place wrong footing the opposition for the next move. It sounds so dull but it's what separates the great from the good.

[Heron]

52 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Not at all. You've misuderstood.

 

Dani Alves is arguably the greatest RB of all time. Top 5 in my life time. Harewood a decent bottom half upper Champo position. That's not a comparison.

 

The Alves comparison is a comparable RW or attacker. Alves is not as talented as a top 5 RW in my lifetime. Not even top 20. Because you need to be more talented to be an elite RW than an elite RB. 

 

Talent only gets you so far mind.

Could those RWs defend as well as Dani Alves?

[The Prophet]

Is being a defender not a talent in it's own right? A lot of all time attracting players wouldn't have the discipline or the reading of the game (from a defensive PoV) to play a defensive position.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by The Prophet

[Heron]

38 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Trippier is not a defensive artist. It's not even a strength of his game. I wouldn't even describe him as a talented defender like AWB. AWB ability to shift his feet, the natural pace and acceleration, timing and technique of his tackles is a genuine talent.

 

Trippier has learnt that side of the game and he's got much better at it but it's not one of his footballing gifts. He's also learnt all the other aspects of defending well too. Same for Dani Alves, Marcelo. But ther talents aren't in defending. Someone like Rheece James has the talent to play central midfield  and centre back at a high level - I think he has numerous times actually. He's genuinely a super talent. 

 

And to Trips credit. He has the mentality to maximise his talent at the highest level. ASM doesn't. ASM won't have a better career than Trips but it's not through a lack of talent.

 

I think people under-rate how much talent it takes to be great at dribbling. Timing, balance, pace, acceleration, agility etc. these are things that are difficult to coach and learn even with a willing and capable learner. Where as most aspects to defending are easier to learn and to coach.. That's how you get career right-wingers (Ashley Young, Antonio Valencia, Jesus Navas, Nolberto Solano etc.) making good RB's later in their career as their physical gifts start to diminish. It's easier. You rarely have it happening that a RB moves forward in the game in their latter years.

 

Who would you say is more talented, Solano or Trips?

 

As i've said in other places. It takes a lot more than talent to have a succesful football career. So the career outcomes aren't tightly related. Who is more talented Gary Neville or Hatem Ben Arfa? Hatem Ben Arfa or Trippier? HBA easily.

Hatem Ben Arfa is a more skilled attacker, he wasn't a better footballer than Neville or Trippier though.

 

I agree with your comments re. Dribbling and the capability to learn defensive skills, but not everyone has it in them. There are a lot, lot of talented footballers who are unbelievably talented and skillful who simply cannot read the game like a lot of defenders can. That's why players like Trippier, Solano, etc. Are for me very talented footballers because they understand the game more than just playing it. That's why the absolute elite players are elite, because they have the technical ability to do anything with a ball but can also read the game and anticipate it ahead of others.

 

Re. Solano vs Trippier, I'd struggle with that in all honesty. I rate Solano very, very highly, but Trippier has also won more and arguably played at higher levels.