dcmk Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) It really does seem like the beginning of the end for FFP. Uefa have their own model though right? Edited March 18 by dcmk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Pundit Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 The pessimist in me thinks that even if it was the beginning of the end for FFP, there would still be some unfair ruling put in place that would stop us from spending the same as the already established clubs, regardless of how much our owners could afford. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 17 minutes ago, dcmk said: It really does seem like the beginning of the end for FFP. Uefa have their own model though right? Yes, which the PL has just adopted for next season It is more stringent than the existing rules, given that it is based around %s of turnover rather than acceptable losses edit: there are over 1,000 professional clubs who are UEFA members. Not one to date has had their noses put out of joint enough to come out and talk about taking UEFA to court. I’m still not seeing where this groundswell of opinion is coming from in terms of clubs Edited March 18 by TheBrownBottle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 14 minutes ago, dcmk said: It really does seem like the beginning of the end for FFP. Uefa have their own model though right? That's the thing. I'm all for the current setup to fall apart just for Masters to fall on his face and the slim possibility that the league isn't run by the red clubs and Levy. But even if there was a ruling from a regulator tomorrow that it's illegal to prevent investment we'd still need to comply with UEFA's requirements. Unless someone is able to get financial regulation thrown out across Europe there is really only one path to consistent success -- increasing revenue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 It could also be that the club hasn’t challenged the rules because they have no interest in challenging them. Because they don’t have the money to just hoy at a football club (no sniggering back there) The PIF is down to $15bn in cash reserves. Which to you and me is a pretty penny, but it’s also not really enough to be chucking a significant chunk of that at a foreign football club https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-14/saudi-arabia-s-pif-to-ramp-up-bond-sales-ipos-to-pay-for-mbs-s-projects?embedded-checkout=true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheBrownBottle said: It could also be that the club hasn’t challenged the rules because they have no interest in challenging them. Because they don’t have the money to just hoy at a football club (no sniggering back there) The PIF is down to $15bn in cash reserves. Which to you and me is a pretty penny, but it’s also not really enough to be chucking a significant chunk of that at a foreign football club https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-14/saudi-arabia-s-pif-to-ramp-up-bond-sales-ipos-to-pay-for-mbs-s-projects?embedded-checkout=true Honestly not sure how much stock to put in their level of cash reserves given they are in hyper investment / growth mode (my hunch is not much). They also got an 8% stake in Aramco a week ago. There are all sorts of solutions to any liquidity problems they may have. But also this is why I'm far less interested in rule changes that might enable us to cut corners in the short term than I am in seeing us grow the various revenue levers in a sustainable way. Ultimately NUFC needs to be able to stand alone. Edited March 19 by timeEd32 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Just now, timeEd32 said: Honestly not sure how much stock to put in their level of cash reserves given they are in hyper investment / growth mode (my hunch is not much). They also got an 8% stake in Aramco a week ago. There are all sorts of solutions to any liquidity problems they may have. But also this is why I'm far less interested in rule changes that might enable us to cut corners in the short term than I am in seeing us grow the revenue the various revenue levers in a sustainable way. Ultimately NUFC needs to be able to stand alone. 100% - KSA has practically zero debt, so there are all kinds of avenues available. But the PIF is also not the same as the Abu Dhabi / Qatari investments a la Man City / PSG. I think what many are hoping for is for FFP to be wiped away, and we go on a Man City-style splurge. I don't think either of these things is likely to occur under any circumstances; football will have some form of financial governance, and the appetite to 'do a Man City' (in terms of CAPEX) is also unlikely in any case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 19 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: It could also be that the club hasn’t challenged the rules because they have no interest in challenging them. Because they don’t have the money to just hoy at a football club (no sniggering back there) The PIF is down to $15bn in cash reserves. Which to you and me is a pretty penny, but it’s also not really enough to be chucking a significant chunk of that at a foreign football club https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-14/saudi-arabia-s-pif-to-ramp-up-bond-sales-ipos-to-pay-for-mbs-s-projects?embedded-checkout=true They can afford to pay a golfer more than they paid for our club. Let's just wait for the summer I'm certain there will be a number of things announced through the ownership. If not I'll be the first one to ask questions as to what is happening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 minute ago, et tu brute said: They can afford to pay a golfer more than they paid for our club. Let's just wait for the summer I'm certain there will be a number of things announced through the ownership. If not I'll be the first one to ask questions as to what is happening. Yeah, I think that's fair. I'm probably going around in circles anyway - I'd just like some clarity. By end of August, I agree I think we'll be far more clear Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 I’ve said it before and I’m in the same boat. I’m reserving judgment on the owners and executive team until the new season kicks off. I will be very disappointed if we haven’t made demonstrable progress on some of the biggest items - commercial revenue, the training ground, and the future of the stadium. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) I appreciate everyone is different, but I'm quite content with the sustainable, long term route to success. If I see the club doing it's best to progress every season, I'm happy. If it takes another year to get stuff like a new training facility finalised, it takes another year, it'd hardly outside the bounds of an unreasonable timeframe given the planning required. Edited March 19 by The Prophet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 10 minutes ago, The Prophet said: I appreciate everyone is different, but I'm quite content with the sustainable, long term route to success. If I see the club doing it's best to progress every season, I'm quite content. If it takes another year to get stuff like a new training facility finalised, it takes another year, it'd hardly outside the bounds of an unreasonable timeframe given the planning required. Do you consider perma Europa league contention to be success? My personal concern with the rules as they are is we get stuck with this being the best case (we may push CL every now and again like last season sometimes but our ceiling will be 7th) I think it’s a matter of perspective and a lack of communication from the club which isn’t helping either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Just now, r0cafella said: Do you consider perma Europa league contention to be success? My personal concern with the rules as they are is we get stuck with this being the best case (we may push CL every now and again like last season sometimes but our ceiling will be 7th) I think it’s a matter of perspective and a lack of communication from the club which isn’t helping either. Communication from the club in terms of what their intentions are? To answer your question, it depends. Settling for being Europa League contenders is different from it being a stage in our development as a club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On a different note, it appears the new regulator will go with a licencing system, with it having the pover to withdraw or qualify that if a club falls short in the four areas of focus It all sounds good, but whether it'll be effective in practice remains to be seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 minute ago, The Prophet said: Communication from the club in terms of what their intentions are? To answer your question, it depends. Settling for being Europa League contenders is different from it being a stage in our development as a club. In terms of the future plans, especially if we are diverting/extending our previous time scales. As other have mentioned it doesn’t take 3 years to find a plot of land for a training ground. Maybe I’m entitled but ultimately such delays will lead to people asking questions. And I couldn’t agree more, I’ve got no issue with Europe’s league in the medium term but my point remains that if that’s what we achieve how do we push beyond it? Maybe people disagree and are being too polite but for me, it’s quite simple. We need revenue to compete with the big boys and the only way we can now raise revenue to a level whereby we can be competitive has been closed(related party deals). Others may suggest we strike deals with others which we absolutely can however it will be a lower rate, only Adidas have been mad enough to pay us crazy money this far. Anyways let’s see what the future holds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 9 hours ago, Armchair Pundit said: The pessimist in me thinks that even if it was the beginning of the end for FFP, there would still be some unfair ruling put in place that would stop us from spending the same as the already established clubs, regardless of how much our owners could afford. Naa. Thry are talking about proportionate growth to allow teams to compete. This is whst us and villa have been campaigning for and in the gov ear. They want the leagues to be as competitive as possible without risking collapse of clubs. So those who can spend will be more free to do so, while those who try to mortgage clubs will be ousted. This is how it should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegans Export Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 9 hours ago, Armchair Pundit said: The pessimist in me thinks that even if it was the beginning of the end for FFP, there would still be some unfair ruling put in place that would stop us from spending the same as the already established clubs, regardless of how much our owners could afford. Obviously there's no guarantee exactly what a regulator would/wouldn't do, but the Government white paper specifically calls out the current regulations for favouring certain clubs over others & that they "entrench the dominance of the richest clubs" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 3 hours ago, The Prophet said: I appreciate everyone is different, but I'm quite content with the sustainable, long term route to success. If I see the club doing it's best to progress every season, I'm happy. If it takes another year to get stuff like a new training facility finalised, it takes another year, it'd hardly outside the bounds of an unreasonable timeframe given the planning required. Very much the same. On the training ground I'd be satisfied with an update that just shows it's still a priority. We should get an update on the stadium coming out of the feasibility study. I think it'd be a bit telling if it all went quiet. But I appreciate it's a complicated decision made even harder by the logistics of Euro 28. Far and away my top priority is seeing us continue to make progress on commercial revenue. I think we did well with Sela on an accelerated timeline and very well with Adidas, while also doing a ton of hiring. We need to keep up the momentum and we're getting closer to the hard part. Training sponsor, a couple corporate partners, maybe something unique or creative. We need to double our current number just to get to 50% of Spurs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 From our point of view as football fans first and foremost, we have to be careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, FFP is enforcing the status quo, is anti-competitive, and is imo corrupt, but at the same time you do need regulation, particularly in sport - the free market would literally just allow us to join the club and take over, loosen the strings for other teams, and also bring back the increased risk that clubs over speculate and ruin football clubs. All the while none of it does anything for making the league more equitable and fair. It would benefit us but it would be awful for the league and for competition. The idea that keeps coming back to me is that there's a tracker system whereby each club in a league, providing they can afford the capital (and owners shouldn't be able to have the club as collateral on any loans for example) can spend a percentage of whatever the club with the highest revenue (if that's the right term) has made plus their own revenue. I'm sure there are things that would need to be accounted for (ensuring the club with the highest revenue isn't at a disadvantage for example) but I think that could be a proper realisation of 'a high tide raises all boats', keep a profit motive going, but also make the league more competitive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 I laugh that the PL give forest a points deduction on the eve of this gov decision to show the can govern, whilst showing the footballing world all thry can do is punish the 'smaller' clubs and still do nothing against those tirelessly abusing the system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
500bhp Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, Dokko said: I laugh that the PL give forest a points deduction on the eve of this gov decision to show the can govern, whilst showing the footballing world all thry can do is punish the 'smaller' clubs and still do nothing against those tirelessly abusing the system. I wonder if the new regulator will have powers to get involved in specific FFP cases such as Man City. Or will they just be sitting in the background shaking their head at the PL for taking so long on this case. I hope they have intervention powers for this type of thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 4 minutes ago, 500bhp said: I wonder if the new regulator will have powers to get involved in specific FFP cases such as Man City. Or will they just be sitting in the background shaking their head at the PL for taking so long on this case. I hope they have intervention powers for this type of thing. They'll scrap it. Give everton and forest their points back as long as they show sustainablity. Clubs will be freer to spend as long as owners don't loan but gift. Remove all the shady deals, UK gets bigger tax from football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manorpark Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 11 minutes ago, Dokko said: They'll scrap it. Give everton and forest their points back as long as they show sustainablity. Clubs will be freer to spend as long as owners don't loan but gift. Remove all the shady deals, UK gets bigger tax from football. Should be what happens. Should be . . Could be . . Will Not be !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) 50 minutes ago, 500bhp said: I wonder if the new regulator will have powers to get involved in specific FFP cases such as Man City. Or will they just be sitting in the background shaking their head at the PL for taking so long on this case. I hope they have intervention powers for this type of thing. The most they'll do is have a scheme for equitable ticketing, maybe some restrictions about timing of games for travelling fans but won't touch the business side of things. Their role will be to do nothing much while looking as if they are doing something Edited March 19 by madras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 17 hours ago, Charlies said: Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but that still seems more like it's aimed at stopping owners loading the likes of Man U or Liverpool with debt, which in principle would be a good thing if they weren't trying to lock out any new competitors to their cartel arrangement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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