Cronky Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Caveat emptor. I suspect it will be difficult to prove that a) Milan knew with certainty that there was a pending problem and b) that they were obliged to tell us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam P Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Difficult to prove but absolutely nailed on. I was in a 'Milan pub' in Brussels for our Dortmund away game and spoke to loads of their fans. Every single one of them when asked laughed and said 'of course we knew'. Having worked in Milan and Rome in the 2010s regularly, there is nothing anyone can say to me that would convince me otherwise. Even a cursory knowledge of criminal investigation timelines and processes under Italian law pushes back the start of the 'pre-investigation' phase into the early summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Adam P said: Difficult to prove but absolutely nailed on. I was in a 'Milan pub' in Brussels for our Dortmund away game and spoke to loads of their fans. Every single one of them when asked laughed and said 'of course we knew'. Having worked in Milan and Rome in the 2010s regularly, there is nothing anyone can say to me that would convince me otherwise. Even a cursory knowledge of criminal investigation timelines and processes under Italian law pushes back the start of the 'pre-investigation' phase into the early summer. A) They (Milan fans) would say that wouldn't they. B) Didn't the thing start when another player fessed up and that was after he'd signed for us ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
janpawel Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 If Milan knew, then surely Tonali knew, hate the thought that he may have known he was sabotaging us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattypnufc Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, janpawel said: If Milan knew, then surely Tonali knew, hate the thought that he may have known he was sabotaging us I mean I imagine Tonali knew...considering it was him? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam P Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, madras said: A) They (Milan fans) would say that wouldn't they. B) Didn't the thing start when another player fessed up and that was after he'd signed for us ? Why would they say that? The argument put forward to me by them was that they had a choice of players to sell for similar money, there was no financial need to sell Tonali. Exactly what Milanista said on here. Italian investigations only start after a confidential pre-investigation period. The charges and accusations are consistent with a timeline well before the start of August, which was the date references in the Italian press as the start of the 'investigation'. You can add 3 months to that for when information was passed to the police for a potential official investigation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
janpawel Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Just now, mattypnufc said: I mean I imagine Tonali knew...considering it was him? Hahaha true. I mean knowing there was an investigation coming which would likely lead to a long term ban I like to think he that he thought it was behind him and something that no one would find out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam P Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 As soon as the information was in the hands of the police, the police will have told AC Milan what was happening. That's the 'working in Italy' insight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidAK Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Paully said: https://theathletic.com/5131650/2023/12/13/sandro-tonali-newcastle-milan/ Great article - really encouraging to read about how committed he is in training to getting onboard with our playstyle, the club's approach to this whole situation being one of support and understanding, and acceptance that there was no way we could have known this when signing him. Basically bodies a number of the poorer takes I've read in this thread over the last couple of months which is always class to see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Adam P said: Why would they say that? The argument put forward to me by them was that they had a choice of players to sell for similar money, there was no financial need to sell Tonali. Exactly what Milanista said on here. Italian investigations only start after a confidential pre-investigation period. The charges and accusations are consistent with a timeline well before the start of August, which was the date references in the Italian press as the start of the 'investigation'. You can add 3 months to that for when information was passed to the police for a potential official investigation. I would say that to oppo fans in the same position "we got one over on you" type thing even if we hadn't. https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/italian-betting-scandal-explained-sandro-tonali-nicolo-zaniolo-banned/bltcfb9b8e6958b4d79#csde79c71427b02d65 There's a timeline here. Edited December 13, 2023 by madras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam P Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 I am aware of that information, the police knew about the illegal gambling before August 2nd. Juventus denying they knew about Fagioli is basically stating that the police in Turin didnt tell them. Of course they did, this is Italy. The official investigation only starts after a period of time of evidence collection. That period is confidential and can last 18 months before an investigation starts. If the Public Prosecutor thinks the 'accusation' can stand up in court, an investigation is officially launched. So the police turning up to arrest the players marks the end of the first phase, not the start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Adam P said: I am aware of that information, the police knew about the illegal gambling before August 2nd. Juventus denying they knew about Fagioli is basically stating that the police in Turin didnt tell them. Of course they did, this is Italy. The official investigation only starts after a period of time of evidence collection. That period is confidential and can last 18 months before an investigation starts. If the Public Prosecutor thinks the 'accusation' can stand up in court, an investigation is officially launched. So the police turning up to arrest the players marks the end of the first phase, not the start. So your saying the police knew but there's no evidence Milan knew ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCK Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Adam P - Podcaster, Youtuber and International Police Procedures Expert. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam P Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, madras said: So your saying the police knew but there's no evidence Milan knew ? Of course there is no evidence Milan knew but i am convinced they did. All it takes is for the police to have a relationship with the football club for that information to be shared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 22 minutes ago, janpawel said: Hahaha true. I mean knowing there was an investigation coming which would likely lead to a long term ban I like to think he that he thought it was behind him and something that no one would find out He absolutely would have known it’s a possibility. I can believe that he’s stupid, but that would be beyond thick. He fucked us over royally as far as I’m concerned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam P Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, OCK said: Adam P - Podcaster, Youtuber and International Police Procedures Expert. Hotel hairdryers too mate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCK Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Not your mate, don't care for what you're doing to hairdryers. Leave them alone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Adam P said: Of course there is no evidence Milan knew but i am convinced they did. All it takes is for the police to have a relationship with the football club for that information to be shared. I need evidence. I'm strange that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 It's good to hear he's been working hard and keeping his head down and Howe is pleased, I just hope the FA don't give him another ban on top of the ban he already has. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam P Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 29 minutes ago, madras said: I need evidence. I'm strange that way. If there was evidence that Milan knew, there would be court cases. The timing and circumstantial evidence suggests that consistent with Italian culture, back office relationships amongst institutions and authorities and the extremely odd nature of Milan selling a talismanic player one month before the investigation became public, all points in one direction. Presuming their innocence is very noble of you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee_Johnny Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 hour ago, mattypnufc said: I mean I imagine Tonali knew...considering it was him? Would be a great legal defence though! Fatigue-related dissociative experiences. Sounds plausible to me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 46 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: He absolutely would have known it’s a possibility. I can believe that he’s stupid, but that would be beyond thick. He fucked us over royally as far as I’m concerned. Agree with this, all my anger on this one is directed at Tonali, did he not want to fuck Milan over so moved to fuck another team over (in this case us)? I'm not sure he really wanted the move now, I mean it seems he had another reason he may have wanted to leave Milan. His performances before the ban don't exactly support the theory he really wanted to be here. Hope we fuck them over tonight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 35 minutes ago, Menace said: It's good to hear he's been working hard and keeping his head down and Howe is pleased, I just hope the FA don't give him another ban on top of the ban he already has. I hope he's not STILL betting tbh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegans Export Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Menace said: It's good to hear he's been working hard and keeping his head down and Howe is pleased, I just hope the FA don't give him another ban on top of the ban he already has. You think - as long as he's knocked the gambling on the head - even if they did decide to ban him he'd be covered by "time served" Toney got 8 months so if Tonali has served 10 then it seems a bit unreasonable to extend it further, provided he's not continued doing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Adam P said: If there was evidence that Milan knew, there would be court cases. The timing and circumstantial evidence suggests that consistent with Italian culture, back office relationships amongst institutions and authorities and the extremely odd nature of Milan selling a talismanic player one month before the investigation became public, all points in one direction. Presuming their innocence is very noble of you. The timing was consistent with Italian culture ? It broke and meant one of their most important players couldn't play in one of the national teams most important fixtures, How's that consistent with their culture ? Edited December 13, 2023 by madras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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