NUFC Transfer Rumours

[r0cafella]

3 minutes ago, gbandit said:

Just got to let it go at this point and focus on the football. Things will become clearer with time as to why it went like this

Nothing what your saying is incorrect the issue is it doesn’t change the present. We absolutely had to be at minimum challenging for the CL this season to keep the wheels on road, nobody can have that expectation now and that’s going to prove to be a big issue. 
 

I think my biggest concern is between the 3 of them they don’t appear to have a fucking clue how much a player should cost. 
 

they offered the same amount for Guehi as they offered out Flash for. 

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by r0cafella

[Coffee_Johnny]

44 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

It’s march day at last and despite that fact I’m still utterly perplexed at how we’ve conducted ourselves. 

We’ll soon be haring around the pitch. 

[The College Dropout]

5 hours ago, timnufc22 said:

Ashworth has to take some of the blame for overspending so badly; £70m was spent on a LB who wasn’t viewed as ready to play by the manager and a winger who was viewed as second choice to the other winger they’d signed only 6 months previous. Even Livramento only played because of major injuries and even that at left back a lot, not his favoured position. 
 

Regardless of all that, how you can miscalculate £70m in PSR terms is unbelievable. I said in another thread how I think there’s a lot of blaggers in football and people who operate at high levels through other reasons than actual ability. 
 

To me, looking from the outside, PIF need to seek out someone reliable in the football world and ask them for advice about who’s legit and who’s really a bullshitter deep down, CEO-wise. Then hire a legit, competent, CEO. I’d also say to promote Steve Nickson or just get rid of the DoF role full stop. Let Howe, Nickson and scouts sort out the football decisions, leave the finance to the new CEO /

current chairman.

This is pure conjecture from me. But it feels like we have aggressive playing targets, need to comply with FFP but PIF aren’t trying to exploit loopholes. Which is a bit of an impossible task. But it would explain our transfer windows. 
 

I disagree about promoting Nickson or removing the DOF. We need strong leadership and a strategy that aligns the owners expectations, actions and everyone else follows.
 

Tell Howe he doesn’t need European football every season but he does need to develop players and players at peak value will be sold.  If he doesn’t like it let him go.  
 

If we want £70m CBs at peak value. Want to keep our stars. PIF need to exploit FFP loopholes aggressively.  
 

 

also don’t like this idea that it’s one player or nothing. Bellamy and Robert were second choices.  Transformative signings. Leandro Trossard and Jorginho were second choices.  They’ve been very good for Arsenal.  

[The College Dropout]

3 hours ago, Zero said:

There was a possibility that Ashworth gambled we could advance to the latter stage of ECL that the extra price money could help to cover part of the cost, plus the Joelinton sale (yeah I know).

 

And that could also probably explain why he was so desperate to accept Man Utd offer after we crashed out from ECL - he knew what would happen afterwards. 
 

the PSR requirement is something very football industry specialised. It requires a lot of football knowledge, connection and communication, and also long term planning to survive from it, nevermind making good use of it. I am really not surprised that Eales / Amanda / all of them (except Ashworth) got caught by the PSR requirement, hence the disaster, because it is not something common in other kinds of business. You cannot just hire a CEO or director from a fast food chain or department store and expect them to fully understand what the hell PSR is and the real implication on squad building.

 

Ashworth knew it though. He must knew it, that’s why he is so desperate for the Man Utd job. If he stayed, what happened last 6 months would hurt his reputation as a competent DOF. Now he is enjoying the praise for a very successful window there. Got it?

I disagree that PSR requires specialist footballing knowledge. It’s just accounting. It’s business more than anything.  That’s on the ownership and the CEO more than anyone else. 
 

If anything football people (without a finance or business school background) might struggle to understand it. When people say selling x player for £50m pays for 5 £50m signings on 5 year deals. Thats technically true for one year but shows a naive understanding of the rules. You then need to have another £50m the next season and wages for 5 players in both seasons. 
 

I don’t think anyone knew how serious the ramifications would be so that’s a legitimate excuse of sorts. They went straight for points deductions.  Not fines or transfer bans. 

[1964]

We need to learn two things from this nonsense, get the deals done early and if we're getting fucked about, walk away immediately 

[Ben]

Did the Man City case about sponsorship ever get a result ? 

[1964]

Just now, Ben said:

Did the Man City case about sponsorship ever get a result ? 

I think Man City have the legal team to make them almost above the law.  Refute, deny, delay so they can largely do as they please

[Ben]

Just now, 1964 said:

I think Man City have the legal team to make them almost above the law.  Refute, deny, delay so they can largely do as they please

 

True but we were expecting a verdict weeks ago that would determine if the Saudis could sponsor us through their own companies and as far as I can tell we've heard nowt

[toon25]

Some of the local Forest rags reckon we bid 50 million for Elanga on Friday

[Zero]

24 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

I disagree that PSR requires specialist footballing knowledge. It’s just accounting. It’s business more than anything.  That’s on the ownership and the CEO more than anyone else. 
 

If anything football people (without a finance or business school background) might struggle to understand it. When people say selling x player for £50m pays for 5 £50m signings on 5 year deals. Thats technically true for one year but shows a naive understanding of the rules. You then need to have another £50m the next season and wages for 5 players in both seasons. 
 

I don’t think anyone knew how serious the ramifications would be so that’s a legitimate excuse of sorts. They went straight for points deductions.  Not fines or transfer bans. 

No, TCD you got it wrong. 
1. yes, the PSR issue looks like purely an accounting stuff, that you can calculate the capacity / black hole by accounting / amortization / P&L etc, BUT

 

2. The real market valuation of the player, their progress, their performance on the pitch, their value change after incidents, value change close to end of contract etc are purely industry knowledge.

 

Just like Chelsea. They are now trying to sell those fringe players at a price even higher than their acquisition fees. We all know it won’t happen, because we have the knowledge and experience as a fans following for decades. Boehly is not a football fans for long. He probably is using his knowledge from other US sports

 

In other threads I did say Bruno’s value is dropping already and we might already missed the boat. There are a few people here fiercely voicing out their disagreement. So even football fans could have great variation re a players value, why not those managements that probably just joined the industry for 3-5 years? 
 

And upon that you also need to draft long term plans re players in and out in accordance to their progress, their value and impact on PSR caps.

 

No way you don’t need specific industry knowledge for this.

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Zero

[Ben]

End of the day the Sky 6 have succeeded in preventing us from challenging them by bring in these rules, whilst at the same time breaking them with no consequences.

[Displayname]

Refuse to believe we bid £50m for Elanga. Didnt fucking happen.

[southernmag]

One further frustrating element of this whole summer has been some people's insistence on deriding anyone who dared to have a negative opinion. I saw the writing on the wall in mid to late July about how our window seemed to be going and was shot down for pointing it out. I take zero satisfaction in being right now.

[Kilcline]

2 minutes ago, Displayname said:

Refuse to believe we bid £50m for Elanga. Didnt fucking happen.

I can believe it but not without adding "and you buy Almiron for £20m" 

[The Prophet]

8 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Back off ban. 
 

the squad building is a mess. I’m pointing the finger at PIF for not setting clear direction and strategy.  
 

I still go back to last summers spending spree for which I’ll blame on Staveley and Mehrdad as acting owners. It didn’t make that much sense at the time but knowing what we know now - it was a shitshow strategically. An over budget window prioritising some of the wrong positions, with the wrong profile, some Howe style, some Ashworth style. Ended up not following any approach. In their defence - if we had a full Eddie window and a bit of luck, we finish top 5. If we had a full Ashworth window, we are much better positioned for FFP/PSR. 

 

Didnt  make the hard decisions in January. June was a mess.  The rest of the window was worse.  
 

I’ve got some questions over Eddie’s influence over transfers. His preference for PL experience is incompatible with our FFP position. But I also think he’s been set aggressive targets so it makes sense he wants low risk signings. Men with PL experience. Not foreign boys with potential. But I believe in his ability to over achieve on the pitch. And that’s the saving grace. As well as having some super talented players. 

 

It's Eales' job as CEO to set the direction and strategy of the club fwiw.

 

He's answerable to PIF. I think as long as the club continues to grow  in value at a decent rate, he'll get by.

 

Until I read the recent Athletic article, I hadn't realised he was as involved in the transfer market as much as he was. I'd hope that the responsibility will be fully delegated to Mitchell moving forward.  The chaotic and reactive nature of the last few days indicates they're still working through the lines of power after the summer upheaval.

[The College Dropout]

6 minutes ago, Zero said:

No, TCD you got it wrong. 
1. yes, the PSR issue looks like purely an accounting stuff, that you can calculate the capacity / black hole by accounting / amortization / P&L etc, BUT

 

2. The real market valuation of the player, their progress, their performance on the pitch, their value change after incidents, value change close to end of contract etc are purely industry knowledge.

 

Just like Chelsea. They are now trying to sell those fringe players at a price even higher than their acquisition fees. We all know it won’t happen, because we have the knowledge and experience as a fans following for decades. Boehly is not a football fans for long. He probably is using his knowledge from other US sports

 

In other threads I did say Bruno’s value is dropping already and we might already missed the boat. There are a few people here fiercely voicing out their disagreement. So even football fans could have great variation re a players value, why not those managements that probably just joined the industry for 3-5 years? 
 

And upon that you also need to draft long term plans re players in and out in accordance to their progress, their value and impact on PSR caps.

 

No way you don’t need specific industry knowledge for this.

 

 

 

It largely depends on what you define as ‘industry specific knowledge’. 
 

In recent windows the only (and massive) issue Chelsea have with PSR is that the turnover of players and coaching staff is too high. Players won’t retain or increase value if they don’t play or they play badly. Having to continually reshuffle squad and coach means that won’t happen. And the size of the fees are still often mad. 
 

But from a business perspective they’ve understood PSR well in recent windows.  
- young players on low wages are most likely to maintain and increase in value. 
- multi club model allows you to spread costs and risk to other less important clubs 

- pioneered the long wages hack (aye industry knowledge makes that a bad move)

- Pioneered the dodgy PSR sale with other PSR hit clubs 

- Selling assets to themselves 

- Aggressively selling youth products 

- now don’t seem willing to offer crazy wages anymore 

 

Chelsea understand PSR just fine. It’s the football they don’t understand. I can see what Chelsea are trying to do, they are just doing way too much of it.  
 

Individual player valuations can vary from footballing man to another. Cool. But broad guidelines are… broadly true. Marc Guehi value is £45-75m. Big gap. But most would agree he’s close to the peak of his value due to age, demonstrable ability, PL experience, existing club position, length of contractand international recognition these are all common guidelines.  Is Bruno G worth £60m or £100m? Don’t know but that’s probably the range.  Using the same factors. Similarly he’s most definitely at the peak of his value. It can hold for another 12 months imo but by 28 most would agree his value will start to decline. 
 

 

[KaKa]

29 minutes ago, Displayname said:

Refuse to believe we bid £50m for Elanga. Didnt fucking happen.

 

We sold Minteh for £30 million.

 

Georginio Rutter went for £40 million.

 

We ourselves paid £40 million for Gordon, who similar to what is being said about Elanga now, was being described as just being fast and not good enough technically.

 

Elanga at the age of 21, in his first ever season as a first team player in the Premier League finished with 5 goals and 9 assists.

 

In our team, playing for our manager alongside the likes of Isak, Bruno, Tonali etc. what does he look like? What does he become going forward? 3 years from now he will still just be 25 years old.

 

I keep seeing players like Elanga, Mbeumo, Semenyo, Wissa, Madueke etc get downplayed all the time. 

 

They're not technical enough I keep hearing. Yeah, but they are very explosive and also, pretty productive too, especially for teams not as good as ours, where you'd expect them to be even better for us.

 

I see opinions on Mbeumo starting to change, as he's off to a flyer, and looking like he's going to have a great season, and this without Toney even in the team.

 

I want to revisit the Elanga thing at the end of the season. And let's then see what the consensus is.

 

In the meantime we'll continue with Almiron and Murphy being scared to dribble the ball, and passing it backwards instead of taking on the full back.

[Eveready]

Accounting in any business requires a certain level of industry knowledge.

 

PSR/FFP is pretty simple to grasp in the grand scheme of things.

 

I don't think Eales particularly lacks industry knowledge either, he's been working in professional football backroom roles for 18 years.

[TRon]

59 minutes ago, Displayname said:

Refuse to believe we bid £50m for Elanga. Didnt fucking happen.

 

Someone at the club really seems to rate him despite opinions on here not concurring.

[The College Dropout]

Elanga was purchased for £15m 12 months ago no? Maybe 24 months ago. To a club we would easily beat to the transfer. 
 

Trying to buy him for £50m in the summer isn’t indicative of savvy transfer market operators. 
 

Rutter, Gordon & Minteh were all purchased from distressed sellers.  2 of them were close to leaving for more money than they eventually went for earlier. 

[junkhead]

Elanga has improved a lot since his headless dribbles at Man U.. similarly to Noni Madueke, he seems on a major upward trajectory.. plays with confidence, he's been extremely good the last year.. probably Forest's best player, alongside MGW

[KaKa]

6 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Elanga was purchased for £15m 12 months ago no? Maybe 24 months ago. To a club we would easily beat to the transfer. 
 

Trying to buy him for £50m in the summer isn’t indicative of savvy transfer market operators. 
 

Rutter, Gordon & Minteh were all purchased from distressed sellers.  2 of them were close to leaving for more money than they eventually went for earlier. 

 

This has nothing to do with anything.

 

Elanga at 21 produced in the Premier League last season to the tune of 5 goals and 9 assists. 

 

I'm not sure why there is such a surprise at a £50 million value. What Forest paid for him doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

Rutter, Gordon and Minteh went for high figures not a million miles away from that and have not done, or in Gordon's case at the time, had not done anything close to what Elanga did last season.

 

You say they were distressed sellers and yet they all cost that much still, despite not performing comparably.

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by KaKa

[Bunk Moreland]

1 minute ago, junkhead said:

Elanga has improved a lot since his headless dribbles at Man U.. similarly to Noni Madueke, he seems on a major upward trajectory.. plays with confidence, he's been extremely good the last year.. probably Forest's best player, alongside MGW

 

Yeah, don't really get the impulsive distaste for signing him here and elsewhere on quality grounds. Think the manner in which we went for him was clearly ridiculous, but he looks a good young player who will only get better with good coaching and feel people are just jumping into an opinion based on a few old headlines.

[r0cafella]

Just now, KaKa said:

 

This has nothing to with anything.

 

Elanga at 21 produced in the Premier League last season to the tune of 5 goals and 9 assists. 

 

I'm not sure why there is such a surprise at a £50 million value. What Forest paid for him doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

Rutter, Gordon and Minteh went for high figures not a million miles away from that and have not done, or in Gordon's case at the time, had not done anything close to what Elanga did last season.

 

You say they were distressed sellers and yet they all cost that much still, despite not performing comparably.

Kaka my friend, us offering 50m for Elanga 12 months after he joined forest for 15m represents a lot of failures to be honest. 
 

it’s a massive recruitment failure and one we can’t afford, if we liked the look of him take the chance at 15m don’t wait for half decent season and for the valuation to be 50m+. This is precisely how you run into PSR issues through a lack of long term strategy and planning. 

[The College Dropout]

I’ve no issue with the fee. 
 

My issue is the strategy. We should look to sign the next Elanga, the next Minteh.  We seem to have pressure to deliver results immediately but we don’t really have the overall finances for that.  
 

Btw Elanga’s output is good. But his underlying stats aren’t so impressive.