Toon next Dubai gadgies target

[OzzieMandias]

I got your point, but do you honestly think that FF is for the long term??? Even a short term solution would suit me right now (with the main aim that FF is leaving). I don't want to hear anymore lies from our "super geordie"...

 

I think I'd rather have Shepherd in full-control than this Dubai lot, when I put my sensible cap on at least. There is a reason why Liverpool didn't accept the offer... granted, it may just be that Gillet "the best a man can get" will offer them more cash, but it might also have been that they realised they'd be villanised as well if DIC got their way and used the mighty reds as a cash cow (it would be a sin rivalled only by mass genocide, in fairness).

 

It is a worry that we're falling behind a host of clubs financially, though. Suppose we've lived a charmed life since the Hall days in that respect and I can't help but feel that we missed the boat on numerous occasions. Proof that money without sensible management isn't as great as it sounds.

 

I disagree. I think it would be excellent if someone went in and messed up the scousers' chances.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

So Gillet has gone in and stolen LFC from DIC. Shoudl fit in well then

[Rich]

It is a worry that we're falling behind a host of clubs financially, though.

 

Are we though?

 

Obviously we're falling behind the teams regularly in the CL as the money from that increases, but it's irrelevant to Chelsea anyway, Man U have always had loads to spend, and Arsenal have a new stadium to pay off. Liverpool and Arsenal haven't spent anywhere near the full amount they have pulled in from being in the CL in recent years.

 

As for the recent takeover clubs, well they may have an initial burst of spending promised to the old owners to make them and the new owners look good and get the fans on their side, but don't expect them to keep pouring in money year on year that isn't generated by the club. Don't think all these takeovers are being done by altruistic philanthropists just in it for the love of the game, and solely for the good of the team being taken over. They're in it to make money. They may be better than the old regime, but then again they may be even more incompetent, and just be content to spend the bare minimum to keep the team in the Premiership and sit back and share out the new TV cash amongst the themselves, reaping a healthy return on their investment.

 

Remember, there's a consortium out there looking for a club with a Mr G. Souness at the helm. Be careful what you wish for.

 

Wasn't wishing for a takeover, was I? I'm actually less supportive of the prospect than most on here, but you cannot tell me that Spurs/Portsmouth/West Ham/Aston Villa/Chelsea have LESS money now than they did under their previous regimes, can you?

 

They'll keep putting money in until they get success, I reckon.

 

Also, I wasn't speaking in the immediate - it's more a thing that will happen over the coming years. Gaydamak, Lerner, ENIC and others have fair whacks of cash behind them, something that we seem to be lacking for the first time in a good while.

[Exiled in Texas]

Gillet is now in partnership with Tom Hicks, according to Dallas Morning News. Hicks owns the Dallas Stars ice hockey team and the Texas Rangers baseball team.

 

According to the article (Posted in the Liverpool takeover thread) Hicks and Gillet were both at the the NHL All Stars game in Dallas last week and the idea of splitting the investment in Liverpool 50/50 gathered momentum during some meetings together.

 

  Whoo HOo ....Finally I am ITK 

[stozo]

I do not want the DIC to takeover. They are an investment group and there priority is not the club.

 

They are the investment arm of the UAE government and there aim is to make money to support one of the fastest growing countries in the world. They will not care if we are finishing 15th every season as long as we are making them profits that is all they will care about. There priority is to help the UAE develop as a country and not to help Newcastle United.

 

 

[indi]

I do not want the DIC to takeover. They are an investment group and there priority is not the club.

 

They are the investment arm of the UAE government and there aim is to make money to support one of the fastest growing countries in the world. They will not care if we are finishing 15th every season as long as we are making them profits that is all they will care about. There priority is to help the UAE develop as a country and not to help Newcastle United.

 

 

 

The only profit they would be likely to make would be by reselling the club a few years down the line for a lot more than they paid for it. The only way someone would pay more is if the club was doing significantly better than it is now, to do this would necessitate a turn around both in the boardroom and on the pitch, and that would require investment in the team.

 

Even if money is their only goal, they would care a great deal about where we finished, because the higher up the league we get the more money we make, both in terms of prize-money and sponsorship, etc. The Champions' League is where the real money's at, so I'd expect anyone seriously wanting to make any money from a football club would be aiming for that and guess what, to get in there you have to have a pretty good team!! Also, we finished quite a bit higher than 15th last season and in doing so made a huge loss, so I doubt 15th would be considered satisfactory by them, whatever their motivations.

 

In fact as this group's stated aims are to make money, I would be amazed if they touched us with a bargepole. This club is significantly overvalued by its shareholders - well at least one of them anyway - has a huge debt and a poor squad, it's about as far away from an opportunity to make an easy buck as you can get.

[madras]

I do not want the DIC to takeover. They are an investment group and there priority is not the club.

 

They are the investment arm of the UAE government and there aim is to make money to support one of the fastest growing countries in the world. They will not care if we are finishing 15th every season as long as we are making them profits that is all they will care about. There priority is to help the UAE develop as a country and not to help Newcastle United.

 

 

 

The only profit they would be likely to make would be by reselling the club a few years down the line for a lot more than they paid for it. The only way someone would pay more is if the club was doing significantly better than it is now, to do this would necessitate a turn around both in the boardroom and on the pitch, and that would require investment in the team.

 

Even if money is their only goal, they would care a great deal about where we finished, because the higher up the league we get the more money we make, both in terms of prize-money and sponsorship, etc. The Champions' League is where the real money's at, so I'd expect anyone seriously wanting to make any money from a football club would be aiming for that and guess what, to get in there you have to have a pretty good team!! Also, we finished quite a bit higher than 15th last season and in doing so made a huge loss, so I doubt 15th would be considered satisfactory by them, whatever their motivations.

 

In fact as this group's stated aims are to make money, I would be amazed if they touched us with a bargepole. This club is significantly overvalued by its shareholders - well at least one of them anyway - has a huge debt and a poor squad, it's about as far away from an opportunity to make an easy buck as you can get.

not necessarily,if DIC follow the same plan they had for liverpool (ie sell within 7 years) by then it's quite possible clubs will be negotiating their own TV rights,outside the top 4 NUFC is probably the biggest available.at a a price less than half the LFC deal i could understand them sniffing.

 

 

as for the bold bit,do you know something we don't.wouldn't it make more sense if those asking for too much were those in control of the majority shareholding rather than a minority shareholding...if the majority shareholding sells out the position of the minority shareholding is very weak.

[indi]

I do not want the DIC to takeover. They are an investment group and there priority is not the club.

 

They are the investment arm of the UAE government and there aim is to make money to support one of the fastest growing countries in the world. They will not care if we are finishing 15th every season as long as we are making them profits that is all they will care about. There priority is to help the UAE develop as a country and not to help Newcastle United.

 

 

 

The only profit they would be likely to make would be by reselling the club a few years down the line for a lot more than they paid for it. The only way someone would pay more is if the club was doing significantly better than it is now, to do this would necessitate a turn around both in the boardroom and on the pitch, and that would require investment in the team.

 

Even if money is their only goal, they would care a great deal about where we finished, because the higher up the league we get the more money we make, both in terms of prize-money and sponsorship, etc. The Champions' League is where the real money's at, so I'd expect anyone seriously wanting to make any money from a football club would be aiming for that and guess what, to get in there you have to have a pretty good team!! Also, we finished quite a bit higher than 15th last season and in doing so made a huge loss, so I doubt 15th would be considered satisfactory by them, whatever their motivations.

 

In fact as this group's stated aims are to make money, I would be amazed if they touched us with a bargepole. This club is significantly overvalued by its shareholders - well at least one of them anyway - has a huge debt and a poor squad, it's about as far away from an opportunity to make an easy buck as you can get.

not necessarily,if DIC follow the same plan they had for liverpool (ie sell within 7 years) by then it's quite possible clubs will be negotiating their own TV rights,outside the top 4 NUFC is probably the biggest available.at a a price less than half the LFC deal i could understand them sniffing.

 

 

as for the bold bit,do you know something we don't.wouldn't it make more sense if those asking for too much were those in control of the majority shareholding rather than a minority shareholding...if the majority shareholding sells out the position of the minority shareholding is very weak.

 

How much is the Liverpool deal worth like?

 

Also, I only know what has been made public: that the Halls actively want to sell their stake and Shepherd actively doesn't want to sell his stake - to the extent that he has considered buying the whole club, or at least he says he has. Now, it doesn't take a great deal of logic to work out that the price demanded by someone who doesn't want to sell something would probably be higher than that demanded by someone who doesn't, does it?

[Baggio]

They valued Liverpool at £150 million, Gillet are likely to buy them for £158 million.

 

Rumours doing the rounds when Balgrevia were in talks was that our board valued this club in the same price bracket.

[madras]

I do not want the DIC to takeover. They are an investment group and there priority is not the club.

 

They are the investment arm of the UAE government and there aim is to make money to support one of the fastest growing countries in the world. They will not care if we are finishing 15th every season as long as we are making them profits that is all they will care about. There priority is to help the UAE develop as a country and not to help Newcastle United.

 

 

 

The only profit they would be likely to make would be by reselling the club a few years down the line for a lot more than they paid for it. The only way someone would pay more is if the club was doing significantly better than it is now, to do this would necessitate a turn around both in the boardroom and on the pitch, and that would require investment in the team.

 

Even if money is their only goal, they would care a great deal about where we finished, because the higher up the league we get the more money we make, both in terms of prize-money and sponsorship, etc. The Champions' League is where the real money's at, so I'd expect anyone seriously wanting to make any money from a football club would be aiming for that and guess what, to get in there you have to have a pretty good team!! Also, we finished quite a bit higher than 15th last season and in doing so made a huge loss, so I doubt 15th would be considered satisfactory by them, whatever their motivations.

 

In fact as this group's stated aims are to make money, I would be amazed if they touched us with a bargepole. This club is significantly overvalued by its shareholders - well at least one of them anyway - has a huge debt and a poor squad, it's about as far away from an opportunity to make an easy buck as you can get.

not necessarily,if DIC follow the same plan they had for liverpool (ie sell within 7 years) by then it's quite possible clubs will be negotiating their own TV rights,outside the top 4 NUFC is probably the biggest available.at a a price less than half the LFC deal i could understand them sniffing.

 

 

as for the bold bit,do you know something we don't.wouldn't it make more sense if those asking for too much were those in control of the majority shareholding rather than a minority shareholding...if the majority shareholding sells out the position of the minority shareholding is very weak.

 

How much is the Liverpool deal worth like?

 

Also, I only know what has been made public: that the Halls actively want to sell their stake and Shepherd actively doesn't want to sell his stake - to the extent that he has considered buying the whole club, or at least he says he has. Now, it doesn't take a great deal of logic to work out that the price demanded by someone who doesn't want to sell something would probably be higher than that demanded by someone who doesn't, does it?

i think the whole deal for lfc was £450mill  that may have included stadium and player investment.....and the shares thing,he would be a minority shareholder,thats why after magnier sold to glazier to give him the majority the rest folded.fat fred could ask for 12times how much they were worth,if he hasn't got control or influence over the majority he's fucked.

[Baggio]

They valued Liverpool at £150 million, Gillet are likely to buy them for £158 million.

 

Rumours doing the rounds when Balgrevia were in talks was that our board valued this club in the same price bracket.

 

Nearly right...

 

Liverpool stall on takeover bid 

 

Liverpool have decided not to formally accept the £156m takeover bid from Dubai International Capital (DIC).

It is a turnaround from what had been expected and comes after a board meeting on Tuesday evening, casting doubt on the proposed buy-out.

 

Liverpool now appear to want more time to consider a revised offer from George Gillett, the owner of Montreal Canadiens ice hockey team.

 

A final decision is expected to be made by the end of the week.

 

DIC has completed due diligence and wants to make its formal bid, via the Stock Exchange, for Liverpool chairman and owner David Moores' 51.6% majority shareholding early next week.

 

It believes Moores was in favour of a bid which would have given him £80m at £4,500 a share.

 

Gillett's original offer had been rejected before Christmas, but last week he submitted a new offer by letter to Moores which upped the bid to give Moores £88m for his holding.

 

 

[Rich]

I got your point, but do you honestly think that FF is for the long term??? Even a short term solution would suit me right now (with the main aim that FF is leaving). I don't want to hear anymore lies from our "super geordie"...

 

I think I'd rather have Shepherd in full-control than this Dubai lot, when I put my sensible cap on at least. There is a reason why Liverpool didn't accept the offer... granted, it may just be that Gillet "the best a man can get" will offer them more cash, but it might also have been that they realised they'd be villanised as well if DIC got their way and used the mighty reds as a cash cow (it would be a sin rivalled only by mass genocide, in fairness).

 

It is a worry that we're falling behind a host of clubs financially, though. Suppose we've lived a charmed life since the Hall days in that respect and I can't help but feel that we missed the boat on numerous occasions. Proof that money without sensible management isn't as great as it sounds.

 

I disagree. I think it would be excellent if someone went in and messed up the scousers' chances.

 

Sarcasm.

[lovejoy]

i would love them to take over, just for the 'MAKTOON' headline if nowt else

 

 

seriously though, these guys would take us onto the next level

[Guest alijmitchell]

Don't really like the idea of these guys using us as a 'cash cow'. I have to say we should be extremely careful what we wish for in terms of takover deals. Ok we are short of cash, we have a paper thin squad, large debt and shit manager, but this isn't neccessarily improved by a takeover deal. For every Lerner/ Abramovich, there could be a Vladimir Romanov waiting. In Romanov's (Hearts') case, it would seem that all that's been achieved is that Hearts' debt has merely been taken over by the owner, not actually paid off. When the inevitable flogging of all the scottish player's, and absolute betrayal of the fans has been complete (it's quite possible mr. Romanov may want out and sell everything up.) then the whole club will dissapear. Just a warning lads

[Guest Dr. Richard Kimble]

I don't think we will be their target. As seen on the Why Oh Why thread, NUFC isn't on the radar of outsiders. It's a media driven kudos thing.

[Dave]

I still fail to see how any football club could be used as a cash cow, especially one already in the red.

[OzzieMandias]

I still fail to see how any football club could be used as a cash cow, especially one already in the red.

 

Just watch Fred. He's pretty good at milking it.

[UV]

The only profit they would be likely to make would be by reselling the club a few years down the line for a lot more than they paid for it. The only way someone would pay more is if the club was doing significantly better than it is now, to do this would necessitate a turn around both in the boardroom and on the pitch, and that would require investment in the team.

 

Not true at all. To use a house as an an analogy, I can buy a house to rent out & sell in a few years time. I could do it up and have it completely renovated, maintaining it to a high standard in the hope that I can get a professional couple in to pay top whack rent on it, or I can just sit back and do nothing to it, renting it out to students/get money from the council for renting it to ASBO families. I'd get the mortgage paid, plus a bit of profit either way. If I spent time and money on it I might make a little bit extra, but I'd have to spend thousands to make back an extra hundred or so a month, so is it worth it? When I want to sell it I'll just tart it up a bit to make it look superficially good if I can be bothered, even if I don't I'll still make a good profit on the house due to the house market increasing.

 

My point is, with the price of admission these days, and especially with the new TV contract money, a football club owner can sit back and get loads of money in for their investment, all they have to do as a minimum is keep the club in the Premiership. Whether they choose to speculate a significant amount of that money they get in to try and get success (and higher profits) is up to them, but it's not necessarily a given that they will do this as you seem to think. IMO you'll see an initial one off sweetner investment in players from these takeover groups, and then they'll sit back and it will be business as usual for the clubs while they cream the profit off the top.

 

Even if money is their only goal, they would care a great deal about where we finished, because the higher up the league we get the more money we make, both in terms of prize-money and sponsorship, etc. The Champions' League is where the real money's at, so I'd expect anyone seriously wanting to make any money from a football club would be aiming for that and guess what, to get in there you have to have a pretty good team!!

 

Wow you opened my eyes there, I didn't realise they'd want the club to do well! That makes them different from every other club in existance how exactly? There are currently only 4 (soon to be 3?) CL places. Do you think Portsmouth, West Ham, Villa, etc are going to spend the amounts of money that Chelsea and Man U do year on year in an attempt to possibly get in the CL? Why do you think any potential new owner of us would?

 

Also, we finished quite a bit higher than 15th last season and in doing so made a huge loss, so I doubt 15th would be considered satisfactory by them, whatever their motivations.

 

This is a gem. We made a "huge" loss because that financial year we invested heavily in players, having to replace our main striker. A different, profit driven owner could quite easily have made a tidy profit by not making that investment in players, and being happy to finish in 15th. The financial difference between us finishing in 7th and in 15th is, what, £4m? Unless you're confident of getting into the CL, financially it makes sense to make the minimum investment in the team required to keep it in the Premiership.

 

In fact as this group's stated aims are to make money, I would be amazed if they touched us with a bargepole. This club is significantly overvalued by its shareholders - well at least one of them anyway - has a huge debt and a poor squad, it's about as far away from an opportunity to make an easy buck as you can get.

 

Yes, the squad is so poor, that with half the first team out for most of the season we're still in the top half of the league, and in touching distance of a European place, but of course that's just down to our terrible manager being "lucky".

[Teasy]

I don't think we will be their target. As seen on the Why Oh Why thread, NUFC isn't on the radar of outsiders. It's a media driven kudos thing.

 

So Belgravia and Polygon were local businesses?... 

[Raconteur]

I don't think we will be their target. As seen on the Why Oh Why thread, NUFC isn't on the radar of outsiders. It's a media driven kudos thing.

 

So Belgravia and Polygon were local businesses?... 

 

Portsmouth and Villa are massive clubs too

 

[indi]

 

Not true at all. To use a house as an an analogy, I can buy a house to rent out & sell in a few years time. I could do it up and have it completely renovated, maintaining it to a high standard in the hope that I can get a professional couple in to pay top whack rent on it, or I can just sit back and do nothing to it, renting it out to students/get money from the council for renting it to ASBO families. I'd get the mortgage paid, plus a bit of profit either way. If I spent time and money on it I might make a little bit extra, but I'd have to spend thousands to make back an extra hundred or so a month, so is it worth it? When I want to sell it I'll just tart it up a bit to make it look superficially good if I can be bothered, even if I don't I'll still make a good profit on the house due to the house market increasing.

 

My point is, with the price of admission these days, and especially with the new TV contract money, a football club owner can sit back and get loads of money in for their investment, all they have to do as a minimum is keep the club in the Premiership. Whether they choose to speculate a significant amount of that money they get in to try and get success (and higher profits) is up to them, but it's not necessarily a given that they will do this as you seem to think. IMO you'll see an initial one off sweetner investment in players from these takeover groups, and then they'll sit back and it will be business as usual for the clubs while they cream the profit off the top.

 

 

Sorry, but house prices are just about the worst analogy you could possibly use for a football club.

 

The housing market consists of: very limited and inelastic supply, and very high (and seemingly inelastic) demand. In other words: people have to pay a high price because they have no alternative and not only that, but they are happy to do so.

 

The market for football clubs consists of: a comparatively large and elastic supply, and very low and elastic demand. In other words: there are a large number of clubs compared to buyers and those buyers will not pay over the odds for a club, but will either switch their attention to another club or drop out completely.

 

As for your point, well that's flawed as well. Here's a question for you: how many clubs in the premiership actually make a profit? I don't actually know the answer, but I'd be happy to bet that it's relatively few and that, with a couple of notable exceptions, any profit made is actually pretty slim. This is where you're whole argument falls flat on its face: We're talking about some of the richest people in the world here, they can make investments that carry infinitely less risk than buying a football club and still receive a significantly higher return. They can probably get more profit by leaving their money in the bank, than using it to buy NUFC and running it like you describe.

 

The fact is football is a high risk, low return business. People have been trying to make money out of it for decades, the vast majority have completely failed. Yeah, Fred takes a million or so out of the club, but that's peanuts in business terms.

 

Here's some back of a fag packet calculations:

 

Club's value (reported recently as what Belgravia were prepared to offer) = £150,000,000

 

Fred's 30% of that = £45,000,000

 

Fred's return on investment = £1,000,000

 

That return expressed as a percentage = 2.222222....%

 

The rate that I can get on my (meagre) savings from ING Direct = 4.75%

 

 

Yeah, those are very rough figures based upon imperfect knowledge, but they still make the point that the returns from investing in football are pretty shitty.

 

Wow you opened my eyes there, I didn't realise they'd want the club to do well! That makes them different from every other club in existance how exactly? There are currently only 4 (soon to be 3?) CL places. Do you think Portsmouth, West Ham, Villa, etc are going to spend the amounts of money that Chelsea and Man U do year on year in an attempt to possibly get in the CL? Why do you think any potential new owner of us would?

 

If you were able to read, you'd have seen that I was replying to stozo, who said:

 

They will not care if we are finishing 15th every season...

 

I already explained why any new owner of NUFC, who was motivated solely buy generating profit , would need to aim for the Champions League, but I'll do it again especially for you: That is where the real money is.

 

Chelsea have indeed spent stupid amounts of money to achieve their recent position, but have ManU, Liverpool, Arsenal actually spent unfeasibly larger amounts than we have? No, they may have spent more, but their greater success comes from having spent more wisely than us, rather than simply more than us. The fact remains that anyone looking to take a profit from NUFC would need a successful team on the pitch. 

 

This is a gem. We made a "huge" loss because that financial year we invested heavily in players, having to replace our main striker. A different, profit driven owner could quite easily have made a tidy profit by not making that investment in players, and being happy to finish in 15th. The financial difference between us finishing in 7th and in 15th is, what, £4m? Unless you're confident of getting into the CL, financially it makes sense to make the minimum investment in the team required to keep it in the Premiership.

 

If you knew anything about business, you would know that a £12m loss on revenue of £83.1 is indeed a "huge" loss. Are you suggesting that we didn't need to replace Shearer, or that we couldn't have done it sooner, or planned for it better, or done it cheaper, or that we'd be in more profitable situation if we hadn't done it at all? In fact what are you suggesting?

 

As for the financial difference between 7th and 15th is much higher than £4m. Are you trying to say that no money is earned by playing in the UEFA Cup? Well we (and a lot of other clubs) seem to be pretty desperate to qualify for a competition that gives us nothing at all in return!! Here's a quote from Fred's statement in the club's most recent preliminary results:

 

Group revenue for the period of £83.1m is lower than the £87m reported last year, principally due to the non-qualification for the UEFA Cup in season 2005/6, which impacted on Matchday and Media revenues.

 

So there's your £4m simply by winning or loosing in the Intertoto Cup. Add on to that the damage to our reputation, and therefore income, worldwide that would occur were we to consistently finish in 15th and you should be able to see that there's a fucking huge difference between finishing 7th and 15th. How many shirts do you think Fulham (the current 15th placed club) sell outside of the UK? Or outside of London for that matter!?!

 

It makes zero financial sense to aim for NUFC to aim to simply stay in the Premiership, that's frankly ridiculous!! It might make sense for Shef Utd to aim to stay in the Premiership, but not us. They don't have the massive debts that we do, they don't have the huge stadium to fill that we do, they don't have the wage bill and other operating costs that we do, etc, etc, etc. Even the clubs that do initially have the aim of simply remaining in the Premiership look beyond that pretty quickly, it only takes a couple of seasons in the top flight before clubs realise that to take the next step, both in football and business terms, they need to be climbing the table and eventually qualifying for Europe. As with any market, it's not a static environment, if you stop going forward you go backwards and quickly get left behind. To aim for the minimum simply doesn't work as a strategy, especially in a market as unpredictable as Premiership football, the risk associated with relegation is way too high.

 

Yes, the squad is so poor, that with half the first team out for most of the season we're still in the top half of the league, and in touching distance of a European place, but of course that's just down to our terrible manager being "lucky".

 

So, you think we have a strong squad, do you? If you do I'd say that only a handful of people in the entire country would agree with you and that obviously doesn't even include the manager or the chairman. As for touching distance of a European place, we'd need 5 extra points to be in 7th, 5 points the other way puts us in 15th. Your point is?

 

 

To sum up:

 

You don't know what you're on about.