Switch to 4-3-3/4-5-1

[Shak]

Been thinking this for a long time, and with Owen hopefully ready to go for next season I really think it would be for the best. As organised as teams have become at the back these days, a basic 4-4-2 is generally pretty easy to shut down. Teams need to be more flexible going forward if they're to cause problems consistently, and 4-4-2 is just a bit too rigid for me.

 

Building a team to play 4-4-2 with the players we've currently got is going to take near total overhaul.

 

- Martins and Owen may be successful as a partnership, but I'd be truly shocked if they were. One of your strikers must be the link man, who drops deep and gets on the ball. Owen would be wasted in this role, while Martins isn't technically good enough on the ball.

 

- Dyer isn't a orthodox winger, and Duff I don't believe will ever be effective again playing as deep as a 4-4-2 makes him as he's lost the ability to beat two or three men at a time.

 

- Parker, Butt, Emre, Sidwell (if he joins). Pick me an effective partnership from those four. It's not possible.

 

Of the players we have in midfield, only Milner really fits a 4-4-2 (To save me going on an angry tangent, I'm excluding N'Zogbia from this, as he's on his way in the summer tbh). Even still, Milner would be even more suited to being one of the wingers in a 4-3-3, particularly if his crossing and shooting continues to improve as it has this year.

 

Switching to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 would immediately help a lot of our problems in center midfield. Any two of the four I've mentioned above would be well suited to playing in a 4-3-3, as two of the CM's generally form an engine room and aren't really expected to get beyond the front men. Essien and Makelele at Chelsea or Xavi and Iniesta are good examples of this. As poorly suited to playing together as they are at the moment, I actually believe Parker and Emre could work here. Emre is born to play in a 3 man center midfield IMO, as he doesn't track back well enough to be a top DM, while he doesn't get forward enough to be an AM. But he's a neat little player who would really flourish playing balls from deeper if he had a genuine target drifting round in space in front of the opposition back 4.

 

Duff, Milner and Dyer would be quite well suited to playing as wingers in the system, as playing further forward would allow them to get at the full-backs 1 on 1 more often.

 

Owen would be the central striker, obviously, and I think he'd be suited to it as long as we added some players at the back with at least some degree of quality on the ball. If we resort to hoofing long balls at Owen all day we're fucked, no question. But we'd be looking to get the ball to our wingers moreso than Owen when building attacks.

 

Obviously, for this to work we badly need a playmaker, someone to be our Deco. Dyer could play the role at a push, but he's not reliable due to injury and doesn't pick his momenst breaking forward very well either. I think he'd be better as an option on the wing anyway.

 

We'd also need to invest in full-backs, particularly on the left, as they'd have to have quality on the ball so they can find our wingers/playmaker or else we'll end up belting long balls all day. Solano could get away with it for another year I reckon, but a LB and CB to play with Taylor are essential.

 

The potential odd man out would be Martins, but I'd think he would have at least a shot of playing as one of our "wingers". In the 4-3-3 your wingers can drift inside ala Messi or Joe Cole. Even Rooney has been used as one of the wingers along with Ronaldo at Man U. As long as one of your wingers gives a genuine threat of width, which Milner can do, then the other can play a bit more tucked in. So I'd think Martins could have a shot at playing on the right with Milner on the left, just off Owen.

 

Thoughts?

[Cajun]

Been thinking this for a long time, and with Owen hopefully ready to go for next season I really think it would be for the best. As organised as teams have become at the back these days, a basic 4-4-2 is generally pretty easy to shut down. Teams need to be more flexible going forward if they're to cause problems consistently, and 4-4-2 is just a bit too rigid for me.

 

Building a team to play 4-4-2 with the players we've currently got is going to take near total overhaul.

 

- Martins and Owen may be successful as a partnership, but I'd be truly shocked if they were. One of your strikers must be the link man, who drops deep and gets on the ball. Owen would be wasted in this role, while Martins isn't technically good enough on the ball.

 

- Dyer isn't a orthodox winger, and Duff I don't believe will ever be effective again playing as deep as a 4-4-2 makes him as he's lost the ability to beat two or three men at a time.

 

- Parker, Butt, Emre, Sidwell (if he joins). Pick me an effective partnership from those four. It's not possible.

 

Of the players we have in midfield, only Milner really fits a 4-4-2 (To save me going on an angry tangent, I'm excluding N'Zogbia from this, as he's on his way in the summer tbh). Even still, Milner would be even more suited to being one of the wingers in a 4-3-3, particularly if his crossing and shooting continues to improve as it has this year.

 

Switching to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 would immediately help a lot of our problems in center midfield. Any two of the four I've mentioned above would be well suited to playing in a 4-3-3, as two of the CM's generally form an engine room and aren't really expected to get beyond the front men. Essien and Makelele at Chelsea or Xavi and Iniesta are good examples of this. As poorly suited to playing together as they are at the moment, I actually believe Parker and Emre could work here. Emre is born to play in a 3 man center midfield IMO, as he doesn't track back well enough to be a top DM, while he doesn't get forward enough to be an AM. But he's a neat little player who would really flourish playing balls from deeper if he had a genuine target drifting round in space in front of the opposition back 4.

 

Duff, Milner and Dyer would be quite well suited to playing as wingers in the system, as playing further forward would allow them to get at the full-backs 1 on 1 more often.

 

Owen would be the central striker, obviously, and I think he'd be suited to it as long as we added some players at the back with at least some degree of quality on the ball. If we resort to hoofing long balls at Owen all day we're fucked, no question. But we'd be looking to get the ball to our wingers moreso than Owen when building attacks.

 

Obviously, for this to work we badly need a playmaker, someone to be our Deco. Dyer could play the role at a push, but he's not reliable due to injury and doesn't pick his momenst breaking forward very well either. I think he'd be better as an option on the wing anyway.

 

We'd also need to invest in full-backs, particularly on the left, as they'd have to have quality on the ball so they can find our wingers/playmaker or else we'll end up belting long balls all day. Solano could get away with it for another year I reckon, but a LB and CB to play with Taylor are essential.

 

The potential odd man out would be Martins, but I'd think he would have at least a shot of playing as one of our "wingers". In the 4-3-3 your wingers can drift inside ala Messi or Joe Cole. Even Rooney has been used as one of the wingers along with Ronaldo at Man U. As long as one of your wingers gives a genuine threat of width, which Milner can do, then the other can play a bit more tucked in. So I'd think Martins could have a shot at playing on the right with Milner on the left, just off Owen.

 

Thoughts?

 

Huge post.

[Parky]

Been thinking this for a long time, and with Owen hopefully ready to go for next season I really think it would be for the best. As organised as teams have become at the back these days, a basic 4-4-2 is generally pretty easy to shut down. Teams need to be more flexible going forward if they're to cause problems consistently, and 4-4-2 is just a bit too rigid for me.

 

Building a team to play 4-4-2 with the players we've currently got is going to take near total overhaul.

 

- Martins and Owen may be successful as a partnership, but I'd be truly shocked if they were. One of your strikers must be the link man, who drops deep and gets on the ball. Owen would be wasted in this role, while Martins isn't technically good enough on the ball.

 

- Dyer isn't a orthodox winger, and Duff I don't believe will ever be effective again playing as deep as a 4-4-2 makes him as he's lost the ability to beat two or three men at a time.

 

- Parker, Butt, Emre, Sidwell (if he joins). Pick me an effective partnership from those four. It's not possible.

 

Of the players we have in midfield, only Milner really fits a 4-4-2 (To save me going on an angry tangent, I'm excluding N'Zogbia from this, as he's on his way in the summer tbh). Even still, Milner would be even more suited to being one of the wingers in a 4-3-3, particularly if his crossing and shooting continues to improve as it has this year.

 

Switching to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 would immediately help a lot of our problems in center midfield. Any two of the four I've mentioned above would be well suited to playing in a 4-3-3, as two of the CM's generally form an engine room and aren't really expected to get beyond the front men. Essien and Makelele at Chelsea or Xavi and Iniesta are good examples of this. As poorly suited to playing together as they are at the moment, I actually believe Parker and Emre could work here. Emre is born to play in a 3 man center midfield IMO, as he doesn't track back well enough to be a top DM, while he doesn't get forward enough to be an AM. But he's a neat little player who would really flourish playing balls from deeper if he had a genuine target drifting round in space in front of the opposition back 4.

 

Duff, Milner and Dyer would be quite well suited to playing as wingers in the system, as playing further forward would allow them to get at the full-backs 1 on 1 more often.

 

Owen would be the central striker, obviously, and I think he'd be suited to it as long as we added some players at the back with at least some degree of quality on the ball. If we resort to hoofing long balls at Owen all day we're fucked, no question. But we'd be looking to get the ball to our wingers moreso than Owen when building attacks.

 

Obviously, for this to work we badly need a playmaker, someone to be our Deco. Dyer could play the role at a push, but he's not reliable due to injury and doesn't pick his momenst breaking forward very well either. I think he'd be better as an option on the wing anyway.

 

We'd also need to invest in full-backs, particularly on the left, as they'd have to have quality on the ball so they can find our wingers/playmaker or else we'll end up belting long balls all day. Solano could get away with it for another year I reckon, but a LB and CB to play with Taylor are essential.

 

The potential odd man out would be Martins, but I'd think he would have at least a shot of playing as one of our "wingers". In the 4-3-3 your wingers can drift inside ala Messi or Joe Cole. Even Rooney has been used as one of the wingers along with Ronaldo at Man U. As long as one of your wingers gives a genuine threat of width, which Milner can do, then the other can play a bit more tucked in. So I'd think Martins could have a shot at playing on the right with Milner on the left, just off Owen.

 

Thoughts?

 

Looks nice Shak will give it a read a bit later.

[Shak]

Could have been twice as long tbh, I'd paragraphs about Allardyce planned as well as comparing different style of the formation. Thought it might be a bit much for the likes of Jon though. 

[Dr Spectrum]

Owen doesn't have the presence to be a lone striker. He's struggled immensely in that role in the past.

[Cajun]

Could have been twice as long tbh, I'd paragraphs about Allardyce planned as well as comparing different style of the formation. Thought it might be a bit much for the likes of Jon though. 

 

Way too much, took me 5 mins to work out the code in the title!

[Beren]

The crucial point you make is new full-backs IMO. Playing non-4-4-2 would ultimately mean the temptation to hit the ball fruitlessly long to Owens/Martin, would be huge, unless we have international class full-backs. Historically, we never invest heavily in these positions though, always preferring loans, paltry sums, makeshift players etc.

[Shak]

Owen doesn't have the presence to be a lone striker. He's struggled immensely in that role in the past.

 

He's added a stone of muscle don't ya know. 

 

He wouldn't be a lone striker though, is the point. It'd work as long as we gave our wingers very little defensive responsibility, like Barca do. Saviola has less presence than Owen, but as he wasn't marooned up front and isolated he was very effective for Barca there when played this year.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

4-5-1 

[Cajun]

The crucial point you make is new full-backs IMO. Playing non-4-4-2 would ultimately mean the temptation to hit the ball fruitlessly long to Owens/Martin, would be huge, unless we have international class full-backs. Historically, we never invest heavily in these positions though, always preferring loans, paltry sums, makeshift players etc.

 

Don't say that, HTL will get the right hump!

[KaKa]

Owen doesn't have the presence to be a lone striker. He's struggled immensely in that role in the past.

 

He's been hitting the weights though ... he can handle it.

 

Besides the 4-3-3 is effective irregardless of the type of striker as long as you have midfielders who can maintain posession and pass the ball well.

[Yorkie]

I have thought about this too Shak, and i agree with you in just about every respect. I say "it works in theory" to quite a few formation ideas, but this one really could work. Milner/Duff as the two wide men in the front three - Milner's getting better and better, especially infront of goal (which is key for this), and Duff seriously profited in that role while at Chelsea. But, knowing Duff's enigmatic performance, this system could make Bouazza an attractive option in the transfer market.

 

The midfield three would be Butt, Dyer and Emre for me. Parker would never work at this - but you're spot on about the potential roles of Emre and Dyer. Just a case of them doing it consistently, as it always is with these two.

 

Definitely could work - with Allardyce. Don't even think about it with Roeder.   He would never be able to master such a diversion to our game.

 

Full-backs are important, though. Definitely.

[KaKa]

Owen doesn't have the presence to be a lone striker. He's struggled immensely in that role in the past.

 

He's added a stone of muscle don't ya know. 

 

He wouldn't be a lone striker though, is the point. It'd work as long as we gave our wingers very little defensive responsibility, like Barca do. Saviola has less presence than Owen, but as he wasn't marooned up front and isolated he was very effective for Barca there when played this year.

 

Precisely ...

[Guest teepee]

owen would struggle, and milner/dyer/duff are no where near dangerous enough as wingers in a 4-5-1 system. and that is how it usually turns out unless you have a very very good squad (and we don't if anyone should have any doubt...).

 

and again, unless you have a top squad this formation is just as easy to close down as a 4-4-2

 

if, and that is a big if, it is to work, i think that martins and milner should be the two to support owen - and they have to be very far upfield so he is not left stranded on his own. so a real 4-3-3 might work, but not with roeder in charge, and as you say not with our current defense!

[Parky]

Get rid of Martins buy Anelka and I'll go with it Shak baby. Nicolas drifting in from the left like the old days.

 

.........Parker....Sidwell.....

 

................Van der Vaart......

 

...Dyer.....................Anelka

.................Owen.............

 

[Guest teepee]

Get rid of Martins buy Anelka and I'll go with it Shak baby. Nicolas drifting in from the left like the old days.

 

.........Parker....Sidwell.....

 

................Van der Vaart......

 

...Dyer.....................Anelka

.................Owen.............

 

 

i'd honestly have milner ahead of dyer and martins ahead of anelka in that formation. that aside - it would look good. but the fart would  cost at least 10m

[Shak]

At the start of last season against Arseanl at Highbury we went with a 4-5-1 I recall and looked very sharp with Dyer on the right and Jenas, Emre and Parker as our 3 CM's.

 

Loathe Jenas as I do, he was very good at getting forward which allowed Parker and Emre to be a solid pairing in the middle and we were looking very good that day until the ridiculous sending off.

[Parky]

Farts unhappy at Hamburg...

[Thespence]

It did not work at MUFc with horse leading the line. But it is bang on when you have someone Kevin Davies as the spearhead. I don't think we have the players to do this formation or the staff to implement a major formation switch. I mean they cant spot a little players being marked by a 6ft+ Africans & they cant make a various styles within the 442 pattern work. Were doomend call for Captain Mannering.....

 

[Shak]

Get rid of Martins buy Anelka and I'll go with it Shak baby. Nicolas drifting in from the left like the old days.

 

.........Parker....Sidwell.....

 

................Van der Vaart......

 

...Dyer.....................Anelka

.................Owen.............

 

 

Milner on the left and Martins drifting in from the right tbh. 

 

Seriously though, I'd be excited to see what Milner could do in this system. Free him of defensive responsibility and he could really breakout. Look at how Ronaldo has done at Man U now that he's not really playing as an orthodox right winger. Obviously, Milner is no Ronaldo. But the theory in how much he could improve is the same as they're both wingers who like to run at people and have a shot.

[Shak]

Farts unhappy at Hamburg...

 

Isn't he generally unhappy wherever he goes though?

 

Great ability, but his tendency to fall out of favour worries me.

[Cronky]

I like the formation, and I agree with several points of your analysis. I'd agree with Dr S though - Owen is the potential stumbling block. Ideally you'd want a target man, or at least someone who's good at holding the ball up.

 

 

[johnnypd]

i think we should move away from 4-4-2 based on the players we have, but to a brazilian style 4-2-3-1. We'd line up something like this:

 

Owen

Duff Martins Dyer

Emre Butt

LB CB Taylor Solano

Given

 

With the width provided by our wing-backs, Duff and Dyer given "free" roles, Martins acting as a supporting striker working hard, holding the ball and linking play, and the midfielders staying deep. Martins could also play in one of the free wide roles and Emre could substitute in Martins' position. Bit of a question mark whether Martins can play this role effectively, he's shown in glimpses that he can, he just needs to do it consistently. I think he is at his best when moving about into space, dropping deep or moving wide to use his pace. When he plays on the shoulder waiting for through balls i think he looks less effective, especially as his anticipation is not fantastic.

 

Ideally this formation would see us spend big on another central midfielder or even buy two new ones, Emre is not disciplined enough to play this formation (at least away from home) and Butt's passing is not good enough/creative enough. I'd like to see us get someone like Riquelme to fill this role, though he would need a hard working player who can cover a lot of ground alongside him, to compensate for his "relaxed" style of play. The midfielders wouldn't get forward too often and would provide a defensive block of four with the centre-halves. I'm thinking of Petit and Vieira or Gilberto and Vieira as models, none of those players was a natural attacker but they played in one of the most attacking sides in english football history. They were the foundation that let the likes of Bergkamp, Overmars, Lauren, Cole, Pires etc attack at will without getting bogged down defending.

 

Owen would be our fox in the box and i think with 3 support players he'd never be as isolated as he has been in a 4-5-1 in the past, there'd always be one of duff, dyer or martins close to him. as a more traditional winger Milner could be an odd man out in this formation but he could play in Duff's role and cut inside to use his right. Again with reference to Arsenal, i'd see Owen's role as similar to Ian Wright's when Wenger arrived, not holding the ball up but rather using his movement and positioning to give the supporting three an outlet.

 

Also a question about Solano's ability to play as a wing-back, i don't think he has the stamina to do this over a full season, so i'd like us to buy a young attacking right-back to rotate him with, Ryan Taylor from Wigan for instance.

[Shak]

I like the formation, and I agree with several points of your analysis. I'd agree with Dr S though - Owen is the potential stumbling block. Ideally you'd want a target man, or at least someone who's good at holding the ball up.

 

 

Owen is very good at holding the ball up if you get it into his feet, but if we did resort to long balls I agree we'd fail.

[Parky]

I like the formation, and I agree with several points of your analysis. I'd agree with Dr S though - Owen is the potential stumbling block. Ideally you'd want a target man, or at least someone who's good at holding the ball up.

 

 

 

Bobby I think your looking at Anelka or Dyer as the 2nd attacking phase outlet and in the 433..Owen moves across the line like the jackal he is sniffing out weaknesses in the herd.