FORUM RULES REMINDER: Fixtures lists

[hakka]

Can anyone offer a logical reason why the fixtures are copyrighted? it's hardly secret material, it's available in seconds via hundreds of football websites, local/national newspapers and tv stations across the UK.   All we are trying to do is discuss what games the club we support have up and coming and what results we think they will have.

 

What possible evil are we causing from saying "ooh, on 13th March team X are playing team X!"

 

And if it is copyrighted, how do you get permission to use it? do you have to "pay" to be able to say which matches are on which date?  this is madness.  Anyone know how much it costs for the privilage to do this? does any other sport clamp down on something so pathetic as this? 

 

Celebs get photo's of them taken without permission all the time, and that's perfectly legal to shove straight in to newspaper, AND SELL IT.  But if your football fan, your doomed if you even whisper a fixture list on a message forum.  Cause that's proper naughty that.  

 

Is there a sub-division within the FA called FI5? do they send covert forum members out there to inflitrate and counter would be fixture list posters?

 

What next, players names copyrighted so you can't even discuss them on forums? or perhaps the score line, copyright that so we can't even discuss the goals.

 

And how can this copyright only extend to discussions in posts? why is it perfectly ok for threads to hosted about games? surely saying "Newcastle vs Team X on DD/MM/YY Official Thread" is just as guilty as the rest? how does that get the nod and the rest don't?

 

I may not be able to say what the fixtures are, but at least I can say that FA are bunch of dickheads over this entire joke of a situation.  

 

http://www.freethefixtures.com/

 

Excellent website, I've signed up.

[UV]

Please just read the opening post, I'm not really sure that we can make it clearer than that.

 

 

Of course you can, it's not clear at all what is or isn't allowed from the OP. If you take the following quote literally:

 

no part of the Fixtures Lists may be reproduced stored or transmitted in any form without the prior written permission of Football DataCo Limited

 

then we wouldn't even be able to legally speak the words "Newcastle United" as that name is on the fixture list so cannot be "transmitted in any form". This is of course absurd. So what constitutes a fixture? Simply "Home vs Away"? or "Home vs Away @ time & date". You've said that match and pre-match threads are okay, so 1 fixture is okay but 2 is not? Are 2 or 3 okay? What's the limit? If you're going to ban people for it, this needs clarifying in the rules.

 

There's nothing in the law about it being okay to publish the fixture lists after the event, so all I have to to is search for "post match reaction" and hey presto I have a fixture list for the matches already played available on this site. Better ban all the people who started these threads now!

 

I've seen no hard and fast rules anywhere about what exactly constitutes a breaking of this copyright (or more aptly what would cause FDC to complain to your ISP and shut you down, as I'm sure the vast majority of this is not ACTUALLY a breach of copyright at all). If you've been shut down before you really should have gotten this clarified.

 

If this is a quote from FDC:

"The news-papers, broadcasters and bookmakers are commercial organisations and it is right they pay for printing the fixtures. We're happy if fanzines write an editorial piece which mentions a forthcoming game but they cannot print a list of fixtures with the dates."

 

then it seems to me that the date is an integral part of the fixture, and so a simple list of games without dates does not constitute a fixture list.

[Dave]

If someone wants to stump up the cash for the licence (or indeed a legal challenge), we're all ears.

 

I won't hold my breath.

[UV]

Serious breach of copyright here FYI:

 

http://www.newcastle-online.com/category/match-reports/

 

 

[indi]

The whole fucking point is that this is a very grey area. The eu has actually said that it is illegal for them to copyright them, but the fact remains that none of that actually matters if all it takes is a threatening letter from a solicitor to our host to have us shut down. This is the reality of the situation. So you can argue about it all you like, but if you post something that resembles a fixture list you're gonna get banned. Sorry, but that's how it is.

[UV]

Just because the whole legality of this issue is a grey area, it doesn't mean to say the rules about where you are going to draw the line on this site "to be safe" should be. Some people have had posts deleted for simply mentioning 4 or 5 upcoming games, others haven't. No-one knows where the line is drawn between discussing the next few games and printing "a fixture list". It's up to the whims of the mods at the time. Pin it down.

 

[Rob W]

As dave says unless and until someone takes the case right through the courts (or the law is changed) then those with the biggest pockets can frighten the rest of us

 

Didn't the racecourses try it on with the Sporting life etc a few years ago - but they just stopped publishing those races, the bookies were in uproar and a deal was quickly done

[Guest elbee909]

If someone wants to stump up the cash for the licence (or indeed a legal challenge), we're all ears.

 

I won't hold my breath.

 

N-O has never got its act together regarding user donations etc. so that's a little unfair.

[bobbydazzla]

not blaming the owners of this site but the situation is a fecking joke.

 

what the hell is going in on football

 

you can't mention fixtures, games being played abroad, loads of clubs are owned by foreigners with little knowledge of the game, moving images around the sides of pitches, no more saturday 3pm games.

 

the game is being raped by money men.

[Rob W]

well their income is £ 7.5 million a year - I guess they'd risk a couple of years of that to defend their position so we'd be in for legal costs up to around £ 10- £15 million if we lost.............

 

PM me for  where to send your cash.................

[GG]

BSAD. 

[abcdefg]

Surely it's just very easy to link to a website which has paid for the listing rights, like so

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/n/newcastle_united/fixtures/default.stm

 

 

There you go, information and nobody needed to get banned.

 

 

 

[indi]

Wahey someone with a brain!! (finally) who's more interested in coming up with a simple solution rather than using it as an opportunity to sick a fight. Uv if you've noticed posts with fixture lists in them point then out and we'll remove them.

[Teasy]

Please just read the opening post, I'm not really sure that we can make it clearer than that.

 

 

It can be made much clearer, I don't see the problem here.  Nobody's asking you to explain Data Co's rules and people aren't getting on your backs or having at go at any of you (people have been having a go at Data Co if anyone at all).  All that's being asked is for clarification on your own judgements of this rule.  I can understand you might not want to sit there and write a massive post that described 100% what you consider to be against the rules, that's why some people are posting scenario's that only require a yes or no answer.

 

 

[Teasy]

Wahey someone with a brain!! (finally) who's more interested in coming up with a simple solution rather than using it as an opportunity to sick a fight.

 

Sorry mate but you're paranoid if you think people here have been trying to start an argument with the mods.  Quite a few people have posted genuine questions, some have been answered, while others have been met with flippant posts by people who seem to take questions as some form of attack.  I honestly don't understand what you're problem is.

[James]

Please just read the opening post, I'm not really sure that we can make it clearer than that.

 

 

It can be made much clearer, I don't see the problem here.  Nobody's asking you to explain Data Co's rules and people aren't getting on your backs or having at go at any of you (people have been having a go at Data Co if anyone at all).  All that's being asked is for clarification on your own judgements of this rule.  I can understand you might not want to sit there and write a massive post that described 100% what you consider to be against the rules, that's why some people are posting scenario's that only require a yes or no answer.

 

Wahey someone with a brain!! (finally) who's more interested in coming up with a simple solution rather than using it as an opportunity to sick a fight.

 

Sorry mate but you're paranoid if you think people here have been trying to start an argument with the mods.  Quite a few people have posted genuine questions, some have been answered, while others have been met with flippant posts by people who seem to take questions as some form of attack.  I honestly don't understand what you're problem is.

 

Basically, naming four or more upcoming fixtures in a way that someone else will understand (ie no nicknames) is against the rules. Does that clear things up?

 

 

Sorry if the admin come across all arsey, but the two forums that this site replaced in 2004 were shut down without warning by the server because DataCo sent a threatening letter to the server without anyone talking to the respective sites first. Since then, we end up having to clarify the rules several times a year, but in the end of the day, they are just doing what they do to keep the site running for you, the user, yet they do get grief from some.

[Jamie]

If someone wants to stump up the cash for the licence (or indeed a legal challenge), we're all ears.

 

I won't hold my breath.

So it would cost us £123 to get the fixtures posted onto this forum ? Spread the cost and thats nowt.

[Parky]

Wahey someone with a brain!! (finally) who's more interested in coming up with a simple solution rather than using it as an opportunity to sick a fight.

 

Sorry mate but you're paranoid if you think people here have been trying to start an argument with the mods.  Quite a few people have posted genuine questions, some have been answered, while others have been met with flippant posts by people who seem to take questions as some form of attack.  I honestly don't understand what you're problem is.

 

Indi's name is in red now that is the core of the problem he can only see in red. 

[Teasy]

James

 

So posting four or more team names (even in a random order without home or away listed or dates) is against the rules, ok now I know, thanks for the info.

 

I've got no problem with anything the mods decide, I only ask that if I ask a straight question I get an asnwer, even if its just yes or no.  After all now that its been made totally clear nobody should ever have to ask the mods to clarify this rule again.  If they do, just send them to this thread.

[Guest K9]

dunno why people have a problem with this. all you need to do is look on bbc or sky sports to see who we play, or just save one of them as ur homepage.

[Mr Logic]

 

Sorry if the admin come across all arsey, but the two forums that this site replaced in 2004 were shut down without warning by the server because DataCo sent a threatening letter to the server without anyone talking to the respective sites first. Since then, we end up having to clarify the rules several times a year, but in the end of the day, they are just doing what they do to keep the site running for you, the user, yet they do get grief from some.

 

I can't quite grasp which is the more surreal. The fact that a 'calander of events' which is of interest to a large percentage of the general population, namely the fixture list, has had a copyright slammed on it, OR, the fact that someone reported a previous incarnation of this site for breach of said copyright.

 

Even sadder, perhaps, someone was employed to trawl message boards/forums up and down the country looking for infringements.

 

Can't say I blame the admin or the server owners for their behaviour. I just know I would be going out of my way to find a comparably priced server provider (overseas) who couldn't give a shit about such copyrights.

[indi]

Teasy, if you had to go through this exact same thing 3 or 4 times a season, having to explain to people what constitutes a fixture and what constitutes a list (how do people get through life not knowing these things!?!), usually with the same people who simply won't take it that the ONLY reason this rule exists is because without it the site could be shut down permanently, at any time, without warning, despite the fact this is exactly what happened to us before, then you get a bit arsey about it too.

 

Seriously though, is it really that hard to understand what a fixture list is and to accept that when we say no workarounds, we mean no workarounds, this includes randomising the order, using stupid names, translating them to Japanese, and anything else that anyone can think of as a way to work around the rule.

 

As a rule of thumb, if it's a fixture and it's in any sort of a list with other fixtures (ie not your shopping list, your Christmas card list, your hit list, or another such non fixture-related list) then it's a fixture list and is therefore not allowed on the forum. If you say I think we'll beat ManU, Liverpool and Chelsea, but get our arses kicked by the mackems then you might be mad, but you're not going to get banned.

 

Sorry if it sounds like I'm taking the piss, it's only because I am. It's really very simple: Please do not post fixture lists on the forum.

[indi]

 

Sorry if the admin come across all arsey, but the two forums that this site replaced in 2004 were shut down without warning by the server because DataCo sent a threatening letter to the server without anyone talking to the respective sites first. Since then, we end up having to clarify the rules several times a year, but in the end of the day, they are just doing what they do to keep the site running for you, the user, yet they do get grief from some.

 

I can't quite grasp which is the more surreal. The fact that a 'calander of events' which is of interest to a large percentage of the general population, namely the fixture list, has had a copyright slammed on it, OR, the fact that someone reported a previous incarnation of this site for breach of said copyright.

 

Even sadder, perhaps, someone was employed to trawl message boards/forums up and down the country looking for infringements.

 

Can't say I blame the admin or the server owners for their behaviour. I just know I would be going out of my way to find a comparably priced server provider (overseas) who couldn't give a shit about such copyrights.

 

Nobody reported us, they actively go out looking for this kind of thing with the sole purpose of fucking over anyone they find doing it.

 

Our server is based overseas, it makes bugger all difference to this kind of thing.

[Dave]

Yeah but

[indi]

Wahey someone with a brain!! (finally) who's more interested in coming up with a simple solution rather than using it as an opportunity to sick a fight.

 

Sorry mate but you're paranoid if you think people here have been trying to start an argument with the mods.  Quite a few people have posted genuine questions, some have been answered, while others have been met with flippant posts by people who seem to take questions as some form of attack.  I honestly don't understand what you're problem is.

 

Indi's name is in red now that is the core of the problem he can only see in red. 

 

Da Comrade Parkovski.