80

For fuck's sake, the back ruins it. It's decrepit old fuckers like Motson who have us wearing this shit, you realise. 'I can't read the numbers'. Cunt.

I think I really like this, but I'm not sure because I can't take my eyes off Jonas' ridiculous looking shorts.

I understand a lot of your basic points, I just get wound up when things are said that can be portrayed as the supporters being to blame for things that have gone on at the club. We get the press effectively suggesting the club would be better off for having Souness/Roeder/Kinnear in charge for several years. Meanwhile, it's also said that supporters have had loads of power over the hirings and firings ('they wanted Roeder', 'they forced him out of the club', 'fickle' etc.) when if anything we've been ignored as a rule - we wouldn't have had half the managers we've had in the first place if things had been otherwise. As I said earlier in the thread, I'd be pretty happy to give Shearer some time, now that I've had a look at him. There'd be others that I'd give no time at all to (see Kinnear). I think there shouldn't be any general rules with appointments. I think the masses should be listened to when they're right and ignored when they're wrong. I think managers should be given more time if it's reasonable to believe they'll come good, even if things aren't immediately brilliant - and sacked at once if there's no prospect of improvement (Souness should've gone before he came). Judgement calls - they're a subjective business.

So... you think Ashley should grow a pair and soldier on with Kinnear like he has been doing? Or, on reflection, do you think the fans may have a point about Kinnear, Souness and Roeder? Roeder was in charge for fourteen months and never saw a full season, by the way.

Certainly, I agree that he's useless in a role at all similar to that which we started with against Spurs. Assuming (which I shouldn't) that we come up with a reasonable replacement, I look forward to his departure - we can't go on making all these accommodations, be they tactical, financial or otherwise (certainly not for someone we can't rely on to regularly turn out, at any rate).

As the article says though, playing three in midfield when we only have the likes of Nicky Butt and Kevin Nolan to play centrally weakens us significantly. There's no mobility there. Geremi - Butt - Barton incredibly immobile as well, really. I agree in a 4-4-2 he looks done in our team but play him where KK did last season with Oba and Viduka as the flair/spearhead and he'll still score the goals. Nolan - Butt - Guthrie is probably "more mobile" than the 3 played last season, incredibly. Barton is slow as treacle as well (he seems to have become a great player again since his injury, when I tend to think he's been pretty dreadful for us when he has been on the park). I disagree on the comparison to last year. Barton is more mobile than Guthrie in my opinion (though I know exactly what you mean about him getting better and better the less he plays), Geremi though slow had a better touch and offered far more offensively than Nolan does, and Butt is playing worse than ever at the moment. Jonas works hard but can we afford to have an out-and-out attacking player in there? I'm thinking Jonas - Butt/Smith - Guthrie maybe? Conversely, it might be said that our midfield is so weak that we can't afford to waste an extra man on it - its not as though we've got incisive wingers, so we'd be playing Jonas and three of Butt, Guthrie, Nolan and Smith; what's the point? Re: Jonas, I don't think he is an out and out attacker, actually - almost a problem that he's so dutiful in going back, at times. More importantly than what I've just said, the added threat (and even moreso, the blend of threats) offered up front by Martins, Viduka and (hopefully) Owen will more than compensate by reducing pressure on the midfield area (giving Jonas room for manoeuvre) and, ultimately, gives us a better chance of scoring some point-winning goals than a midfield which contains Nolan et al. I find it more damning of the team as a whole than I do simply Owen. He's undoubtedly got his problems - his physical weaknesses meant he wasn't going to single-handedly create situations which added to our midfield/defensive difficulties, but IF he can still do something with service (we shouldn't forget he did score a good goal against Chelsea), then some responsibility must lie with those behind him, who were also incapable of creating something without outside assistance. They presented him with no opportunity to get into the box (its not as though Owen was on the half-way line while the ball was bobbling on the goal line). Basically, my position is we rely upon Martins and Viduka to facilitate the rest of the whole team. Now, even with them, we haven't got a great team of goalscorers (while Viduka's handy (though lazy), Martins is erratic, Jonas still hasn't scored yet etc.), so if we can, as we did last season, create such havoc as a TEAM, we may be able to unlock Owen's hopefully still intact instinct and convert some of the resultant chances. One final thing; not that I think it should be our first port of call, but no one has mentioned a 3-4-3, yet. I think it should be in mind as a resort, as and when circumstances conspire. P.S. Can the poll be changed to offer options re: two and three man partnerships?

yeah, i really havent agreed with his match formation but it shows an degree of creativity, courage invention that some of our other managers have lacked. he now needs to show the same attitude when it comes to dropping the likes of nolan, butt and duff and sticking owen in midfield. i'd stick with him next season at least, especially when we know what the alternative is. Yep, I basically agree with this. I'm pretty content to stick with him - maybe not the most perfect and surest choice, but going on the early days there are some signs of promise and I'd like to see him have some time .

Yes, fundamentally, I feel he would - because they'd be set up to deal with him. That was the thing with Spurs - the particular way in which we started to play better was a result of their seeking to deal with him. Suddenly, they had to drop their defensive line back 10 or 15 yards to accommodate the risk of his pace - which in turn gave us far more space in midfield. This allowed, for example, Gutierrez to have a positive impact in the attacking sphere - he hadn't been much use up until then - one of his weaknesses is he's not very effective when smothered. So yes, having Martins on the pitch is very good for us, not so much for the direct impact he can offer (which is still relatively helpful), but because the rest of the team indirectly benefits greatly.

First of many!

Seemed to assume a cross was coming so 'over-dived'.

Fuck that.

Up to 5 again. Blind hope. Based on Martins and Viduka remaining game for the rest of the season.

'You're going down with a silver bullion ship'

So we're agreed - it's war with Spain. Good stuff.

They all look the same...

Well, if we take it as being true just for the sake of argument, it is very bad as it's £5m we thought we still had in our pockets until recently. Given how much we're spending in general, it's a big hit. Far better to have him for free, put simply, never mind any relative valuations we might be pleased about. As far as anyone knows it's still being discussed/argued out. Thing is, I'm not sure what there is to argue about. As far as I'm aware, we've operated within the confines of the Webster ruling - something ultimately rooted in the EU's (of whom all our bases belong to) attitude to employment law. As it is, I'm not sure what legal grounds Deportivo can offer to say Gutierrez should have been paid for, and it would seem their action is more inspired by emotion than sense - a bit like Le Havre's when we took N'Zogbia. The fact is, if things went far enough, Deportivo risk Brussels wading in and calling ALL of football's binding contracts into question - the Webster thing was only a halfway house set up by football from a position of weakness. The legalities are only going to push this stuff in one direction - total freedom of movement, which won't ultimately be in Deportivo's (or any club's) favour.

I would love an explanation of whatever's going on re: Gutierrez's fee. Really unclear on where that one's gone/going.

I basically agree with everything you say, but this para best highlights what pleases me (already said this once today - I'm starting to sound gushing). He appears to be a particularly flexible manager/character (note: not to say spineless), which is something I wasn't expecting.

Yep, if this happens, it'll be Shearer's choice all the way - and quite right, too. He's always had a lot of respect for Dalglish, so I couldn't be too surprised if it does. I'm not too sure about the appointment for a variety of reasons (re: scouting and admin, he's been out of the game for a while (but then again, Keegan supposedly had been too, and he got us Bassong!)), but that's for Shearer to decide. I must say like others that in retrospect, several of Dalglish's purchases proved to be very successful - not just in terms of talent but that of character. Nobby, Dabizas, Given, Speed and others went on to become the bedrock of our Champions' League side.

Must admit I'm surprised and delighted by the noises he's generally been making re: affording players individual attention, knowing all players are better for feeling good etc. I'd anticipated a 'one size fits all' policy, whatever that size was, myself.

Didn't see it, but I'd guess (and hope) that would explain whatever people have noticed.

If that vid really shows the extent of his behaviour, I hope the PFA give him their full support. Farcical that someone could be moved to 'fury' by it. I had to watch it a second time just to make sure he/that incident was what was actually being talked about. In all seriousness, I'd have the Carragher thing down as being worse - gobbing during a minute's silence instead of just not being able to sit still while that dreadful noise was being made (which I rushed to turn off myself when I first saw it).

Interesting. I have to give him credit for a lot of the stuff he's saying and appearing to do.

Way more damning than silence

Partly depends on where we are with managers and, more to the point, finance in the Summer, but I wouldn't mind keeping him if we stay up so long as its on a cheap/short deal. Not actually clear on what his wages are, now I think of it. I don't imagine they're that high - a sustainable (relative) luxury should we be relegated.