merlin

You are right - but they COULD be utilised better than they are being now... Good regular coaching could improve Milner's crossing - it just needs hard work.

I'm afraid so. I'm firmly of the belief that managers like him, Shankly or Busby would never be a success in our time. I'll even stretch it so far as to say that players of that era wouldn't be a success in our time either. Sadly, this is something we'll never find an answer to. Which brings me to my point; comparing it is pointless. It may be harder to compare players of yesteryear with those of today, but comparing managers is far easier. 95% of the manager's job is to convince the players at his disposal that they are better than they really are, to get them to gel as a team and to get them to play accordingly. IMHO Clough, Shankly and Busby would easily have cut the mustard in the modern game. SBR was a success throughout his managerial career starting at Ipswich and ending at Newcastle, The point with successful managers of a bygone era is that success brought longevity which took them into following sporting eras. Their success in those areas can be measured. As for players, with modern day fitness levels I would rather have John Charles to Didier Drogba, Bobby Moore to John Terry, Duncan Edwards to Rio Ferdinand, Dave Mackay to Frank Lampard and George Best to Christiano Ronaldo in my team. Technical levels were high but not so obvious as they were hidden due to old heavy leather ball. Quite right - players like Macdonald and Tony Green would have been worth many millions today..in your own case, people like Greaves and Martin Peters ; Tony Currie, KK, John Toshack - all of these would WALK into any modern Prem side and be a success.. Clough would have had some of today's players for breakfast, Revie had more dossiers than Allardyce, and Shanks was- well , Shanks..ALL of them would have been a HUGE challenge for the likes of Wenger and Mourinho - as Alex Ferguson what HE thinks ; I bet you'll find he agrees - he is the only one left who crossed swords with Clough, and Clough was on the way down then....

Does this really matter ? Did the fact that there was a dispute over his being dropped excuse Barton's behaviour, or even the fact that he exposed himself to the provocation he received by going to the nightspot in Liverpool.?? Just an attempt to paper over the cracks in my opinion - players ALWAYS talk, whether its to the media or to friends outside the game, so stuff will always leak out. There is no smoke without SOME fire...

IF ONLY....!!!!(someone of his calibre would be 30m these days..)

This is one of the biggest mysteries of the whole season. No way has Enrique been the worst player in the side this season, and as has been said already, he is a decent passer of the ball - I thought he worked well with Zog when they have been on the same flank, and he hasn't shown any signs of panic during games. How a player is supposed to get Prem experience when he never gets selected is beyond me - its not as if Zog is better at LB, because he is clearly more effective further forward.. Allardyce should not have bought the guy if he hasn't enough confidence to play him, at least every couple of games - we were NOT in the luxurious position of being able to buy youngsters and give them a season in the Reserves - they need to be ready to PLAY NOW and keep playing unless they make bad errors consistently. The guy cost over 6m and he should be playing if for no other reason than it releases Zog to add weight to the attack. In my view, Viana was more obviously unsuited to the Prem than Enrique so the whole thing is baffling - but then, so is everything this season..!!

Have not seen the game but it seems that we were hard done-by with the late off-side goal. At least there seems to be some improvement in attacking effort, but, by all accounts, this wasn't until the second half when, once again, Allardyce had to scrap his tactics and play N'Zogbia on the left wing/up front where he SHOULD be... How many times are the team going to have to go behind before the manager lets the team play in the formation which is most effective for the players we have ? People are grasping at straws here - I have read the accounts of those who witnessed the game, and it appears that we really only had 2-3 chances ; this seems to be par for course, esp in away games.. Lets put this result into perspective - it was a defeat ; maybe undeserved because of the manner of it, but a defeat nevertheless ; we created very few chances(contrast this with Villa's performance at Chelsea a few days earlier - so much for those who claim O'Neill plays negative football, as this was their second game away from home where they scored 4 goals this season). Chelsea were even weaker for this match than against Villa ;our strikers once again failed to score... As welcome as any improvement is, I for one am not going to start celebrating the club's revival yet - the side has dished up some total rubbish this season and been made to look second-best by a motley crew of mediocre sides, 3 of whom are likely to be relegated.... Once they start beating teams - convincingly - who they SHOULD be beating, maybe I'll get excited by a 2-1 defeat at Chelsea, but maybe I won't..! There are plenty of accusations of 'too high expectations' on this site about fans who expect better performances - I'm afraid there are too many here with too LOW expectations.

Surely you're not naive enough to believe that football hasn't changed one bit since 1993? And surely YOU are not naive enough to believe that Clough wouldn't have been a success in whatever era he managed..??

He needs the rest of the team playing well more than he ever has. Which doesn't bode well. One of the most perceptive and accurate comments I've seen - sadly, he is wasted, just like the other forwards, if we keep playing the same way....

Howay man. Did you see the Wigan game or what? Or the Derby game? Fulham? Derby away? sunderland? These are teams that get humiliated on a regular basis and we huffed and puffed in an attempt to get a point against all of them. Once is fine, twice is tolerable, but every bloody week? Wullie, lower your expectations, you're expecting too much. For the last three seasons we've been a mid-table side that has had the occaisonal flirtation with the relegation zone. That's the reality and that's not going to be turned around quickly. Of the sides mentioned, Derby are the only ones who are really poor. An away game against the others isn't a cakewalk for a midtable side. I'm not saying Big Sam hasn't made mistakes. He's finding out about the players and has probably made too many changes. But he's got to be given more than half a season. A cakewalk? We had one shot and it was exactly the same at Fulham, Derby and the SoS. Four games and the best chance in any was our centre half against Derby. That is not acceptable, I don't care how you dress it up. You're exaggerating, and ignoring some of the better performances. I'm frustrated as well. I expected things to be better. But Ferguson's underlying point is that the pressure exerted by the fans is doing more harm than good, and he's right on that one. Moyes at Everton, Hughes at Blackburn, Redknapp at Portsmouth have all been through difficult times, but look at them now. I'm not exaggerating actually. Rozehnal vs Derby was our best chance in those games. We went for a point in every game and were dreadful each time. Well I seem to remember that we did well in the first half against Fulham, but we're getting bogged down in details which I'm too pissed to remember well at the moment. The bigger picture is that Big Sam is on a learning curve. He is in a new job, with new players, trying to make sense of the aftermath of what's been left over from three previous managers who were operating under an interfering chairman. In that situation, you're not going to get everything right first time. Give him a chance to learn his lessons, get the players in that he needs, and then judge him. A Learning Curve, for heavens' sake !?? He's supposed to be an EXPERIENCED manager - that is why he gets 3m a year, he's not Alan Shearer dropped in at the deep end ...Oh wait, maybe that's NEXT week ! Seriously, this is no excuse - if he doesn't know that players should be played in the best positions, or that 6m is a lot to spend on a fullback you don't have any confidence in, OR that most of your signings are going off to the African Nations' Cup halfway through a season, he shouldn'r either have the job, OR be getting such an outrageous salary.

They are mates aren't they. I'm sure he's got our best interests at heart...Like f*** he has. Yeah there mates & have been seen sitting next to each other at LMA do's & at a Labour party pow-wow. To be fair to Sir Alex he has talked about the number of managers we have had in his time at Man Utd before. He sometimes mentions us when he does his after dinner speaking says something about Newcastle being the only place the local paper can sell a extra 20'000 copies on the back of headline left back injured & it turns out it is a reserve player. Deep down Sir Alex has soft spot for us Deep down he has an unreasoning phobia about us, you mean - he knows that we almost toppled them in 96, and that if we had, they would have had a club battling them for the next 5-10 years with almost as much support potential as them... See my comments about this on the 'If not Sam then Who?' thread.

So you think you are a better judge than one Brian Clough then do you !?? Because, as I keep telling you, that is EXACTLY what Clough said football was - a simple game made complicated by Buffoons... If you get the players playing in a system they are comfortable with , AND to their strengths, they will do the business PROVIDED they have a modicum of ability. Clough did not take 20 games to make an impact at Derby and everywhere he went he took John McGovern with him ..one day, a NE journalist, Doug Weatherall, asked Clough why he always signed McGovern, as none of the Press guys could see anything in him - Clough replied ' that's why YOU are a journalist, and I am a MANAGER, Doug..!!' John Robertson, now coach to O'Neill at Villa, never got on well with Clough, but he would run through a brick wall for him because Clough let him PLAY TO HIS STRENGTHS as a left-winger...do you think Cloughie would have played N'Zogbia at LB, because I don't....I once saw him bollocking a player in training because the guy was a striker and he was taking corners - Clough said ' I didn't pay 1m for you to mess around taking corners, I paid it so you could score goals- GET IN THE MIDDLE !' No messing about with positional changes for BC..!!

I don't think it'll be Shearer. I don't know who it'll be but someone with a proven track record would be my guess. Apppointing Shearer seems too much of a risk. I agree with this. I DO think Shearer has a chance of becoming a good manager one day, but I want to see him prove himself away from SJP first ; if he comes here and fails it will ruin any chance he has of becoming what he could be as a manager. The problem is that many fans cannot see beyond him because ;- 1.He's a Geordie 2.He's the most iconic player many below the age of 30 have seen at SJP 3.The media keep pushing him 4.Many cannot see that we have any other choice. This last point is quite relevant - of all well-recognized managers or candidates, Shearer is the only one we have a decent chance of getting - BUT - that does not mean we should definitely do it(see my comments about other up & coming managers earlier this week). IF Allardyce goes, this is the most crucial decision in the club's history during the past 15 years - we took a gamble with KK in 92 and it paid off, but we had little to lose ; if the Board get the next one wrong, it could set us back almost to pre-KK days. The next manager HAS to be here for some years if we are to re-establish the club's credibility - only a SUCCESSFUL period of stability will make us respected once again. Incidentally, I see that Ferguson has been defending his pal Allardyce, and saying its a job no-one would want, that the worst thing NUFC did was to beat Man Ure 5-0(he thinks we all expect to win every game like that etc etc), and that we have never recovered from firing SBR - well, THAT bit is true, but he fails to mention the common denominator - one F. Shepherd, who both fired SBR and appointed Allardyce, so was it a brilliant piece of judgment to bring in Sam, but a disaster to fire Bobby..!!?? In my opinion, Fergie wants to mind his own business - he will try ANYTHING to wrong-foot opposing clubs who he views as possible threats, and we all saw what he did in 96, suggesting that Leeds and Forest would 'lie down' for us so we could win the title(which incensed KK so much).he has also slagged off Wenger AND Mourinho in the past if he thought he could gain some advantage, so the thought of us getting someone who just MIGHT get us back challenging them again does not look good to Fergie...!! I just hope Mort & Ashley look at all possible alternatives before making any decision - the next guy has GOT to be right...

Like who? Just curious Me too - does Barton come into this category - OR Geremi, Smith, etc. etc... see the connection..!!

I'm sure they will have taken steps in that direction by now - esp after the Wigan unrest among supporters..

Most likely option unless we lose at Stoke...

Cloughie also said that 'Football is a simple game made complicated by buffoons..' We are seeing the proof of that now....

Never a truer word spoken. Expect him to be away in Jan I reckon, if BS is still here. For the record, he's been a different keeper since his injury SA must be able to see these things if we can. Are you QUITE SURE about that..!!

Spot On - don't be as I do, be as I say....!

Has anyone read what NUFC.com's 'man in S.Korea' has said about him...!!!?

I was never happy about Geremi being made captain and couldn't see why either - it hasn't worked out and maybe we should have been warned then that Allardyce has some strange ideas.. As to the rest, IF the players whinged about being away for Christmas, they are out of line - if they were playing in Italy they would be expected to go away before every game... However, I can see why they would complain about tactics/style of play - it is clearly not working and one can only speculate that any prospective top-class signings would be put off by such rumours creeping around the game. It is beginning to look as if Allardyce's success at Bolton(if that what you want to call it..!), was a one-off, based on a group of players who were either on their way down because of age, or mediocre and had faith in his methods because they knew they wouldn't get a chance elsewhere.

I cannot believe how people on this site are arguing as to who is worse, Souness or Allardyce... For goodness' SAKE - Souness HAS GONE - END OF.. Allardyce was appointed to do a better job than any manager since SBR ; has he done that? NO.. Does he show any signs of being able to do that ? NO..(This is THE crucial point..) Are the team, despite all the changes in the Summer, better than during the past 2 seasons ? NO.. Are the fans happy ? NO.. Do they have faith in the manager ? NO.. Does this manager look/feel comfortable at SJP? NO.. Are we going to win matches against teams like Liverpool(Away), Man U(at home), or Chelsea(at home) with what is passing for Premiership football by this team ? NO.. Will this manager, and the way the team plays, be able to attract BETTER players in summer ? NO.. Are the fans prepared to wait possibly 4 years to get European Football ? NO.. Do we need better players to improve? YES.. Will the better players on the current staff start getting restless about being at a club not progressing? YES... Have we played mainly moderate to poor opposition in the first half season ? YES... Can we now get back to the point, which is ; If not Big Sam, then who..?

ONLY until May - after that, such a claim is pure defeatism..

We will NOT 'do a Villa' next season if Allardyce is still the manager - his teams have NEVER played as well as O'Neill's sides ; Villa have a few decent young players, we only have N'Zogbia and Taylor who could be classed as anything like the standard of youngster they have, and I bet they wouldn't swap Young or Agbonlahor for Zog or Martins....

Just think, if you'd have got rid of MON after the first 18 games or so, you could be going to Chelsea and hammering them. Yes, Just Think - they might have had Allardyce instead and then they WOULD have thought of getting rid of him after 18 games...!

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/premiership/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/07/12/26/SOCCER_Wigan_Quotes.html&TEAMHD=premiership 'I'm a top man in my field'..I'm afraid he won't get too many fans agreeing with THAT load of clap - he has managed Notts Co , Blackpool & the mighty Bolton, so does that back up his claim..??