fredbob

A little irony in being wrong and not seeing it in an admit you're wrong thread. i dont see doubting keegan as being a big blunder though, given the context of his appointment, i would say it is very lucky that we may possably be wrong, whereas writing off owen was stupid and naive and i'm perfectly happy to admit it. I still dont think its wrong to doubt Keegan, to be honest, whilst im extremely happy to have him in charge of the transfer budget this summer, im still ready to admit that im a little worried about pre season and keegans effectiveness for next season. Im citing Roeder's honeymoon period and subsequent insipd season as an example of where my concerns lie. To be honest i think it's very naive to think that Keegan will be a resounding success after 10 games or so, if so many people had no doubts about Keegans ability then why wasnt he the outstanding choice for appointment on this board post Allardyce?

I dont understand the logic in people saying they should swap the input of one player for the inout in 3, there are 2 things fundamentally wrong with that, will those 3 players have the same input and how can the team accomadate those 3 players to get the same input, who do they drop? To me, aside from full backs and maybe keeper that Man U side looks close to perfect.

The current manager loaned Roz out of a squad he says is short on numbers, I think that tells its own story about his ability & attitude, he dropped Cacapa. So Taylor being at Newcastle & getting picked is what I would go off at this moment. So back to the thread question then....Senderos vs Taylor?

Hate admitting it, but Man U comeback in the CL final vs Bayern. Roberto Carlos freekick Le Tornoi CarlosAlberto goal vs Italy WC Final - My favourite of all time. Loads More.

But i dont see the raw attributes to see him flourish, thats my issue. A few years ago, he hd age and inexperience on his side, and even though he's still young he hast really developed anything prticulary good about his defending. When i look at him as a defender, i dont see great anticipation, i dont see great strength, i dont see great positional sense he has a decent bit of pace but by no means is he lighniting. These are all attibutes that are vital as a defender, i still have hope that he could come good, id like to see him play the Terry role, because idont think he;s iuntelligent to play the Ferdinand role. He's made a lot of mistakes in his career, just like Roz have and Cacapa has and Bramble and Boum did, but none of themgot the preferential treatment that Taylors gets. Like i say, i hope he'll come good, but i dont think he will, if we conceded less as a team, it will be more down our team playing more attacking then idown to our centre halves over performing. Just like it was when we last break the top 4. For me, Taylor is no better tha A O'Brien. It depends what you mean by "raw attributes". Do you mean a footballing defender ? I don't look for that specifically, I look for someone with strength and the determination to hold a defence together and will stand up when the chips are down. If he's a "footballer" - like Roy McFarland - then so much the better, but players of quality like that are very rare. He's not a Roy McFarland or even a Rio Ferdinand, he;s more of a Vidic type, a Carragher type, a Colin Hendry type. Thats what he is. He needs to play alongside better players now though, either with us or someone else if something goes wrong. To say he is no better than Andy O'Brien is a joke mate, sorry, but it is. I mean attributs which help assist his defending, such as anticipation, and pace, and strength etc. I dont think he has these thing in great abundance, or has learned any of these despite playing 130 odd games. Which if you ask me he should of. See id agree with you about the type of defender he should be, he's not intelligent to play the Ferdinand role so in my opinion should play the battering ram role which is currently being occupied by Faye. See im in split minds as to whther he could be a very good defender, but as it stands, Taylor may have more talentthan A o'Brien, AOB got far more out ofhis limited talent than Tayl has so far. How can you call Roz and Cacapa shit? When Taylor hasnt done any better?? Seems a bit contradictory to me.

But i dont see the raw attributes to see him flourish, thats my issue. A few years ago, he hd age and inexperience on his side, and even though he's still young he hast really developed anything prticulary good about his defending. When i look at him as a defender, i dont see great anticipation, i dont see great strength, i dont see great positional sense he has a decent bit of pace but by no means is he lighniting. These are all attibutes that are vital as a defender, i still have hope that he could come good, id like to see him play the Terry role, because idont think he;s iuntelligent to play the Ferdinand role. He's made a lot of mistakes in his career, just like Roz have and Cacapa has and Bramble and Boum did, but none of themgot the preferential treatment that Taylors gets. Like i say, i hope he'll come good, but i dont think he will, if we conceded less as a team, it will be more down our team playing more attacking then idown to our centre halves over performing. Just like it was when we last break the top 4. For me, Taylor is no better tha A O'Brien.

Someone should smash their windows if they sell. They'd be signing there death certificates if they were to sell for business reasons. Suicidal move. 'Glaziers' man

Someone should smash their windows if they sell. They'd be signing there death certificates if they were to sell for business reasons. Suicidal move.

An attacking unit is useless without possession and the best player to retain possession is a DM, without a shoadow of a doubt the sinle most impotant player in the team. Also an attacking midfilder wont be very creative without any decent outlets so its important that the people n front of him are the good enough to find spaces, so we need a RW(dependingon formation) then a class AM.

Still forst choice at Madrid when fit True, but at that age surely they will be looking at other options, the man will have his price, and im sure it will be a reasonable one as well. Someone like him id have no problem having here, doesnt have much baggage with him and is a proven goalscorer at every single level. Still world class in my opinion and not the type of player who is looking for a last pay check. Having said all that, he'd probably still only have 2 years as a top class striker left in him, so paying £8-12m for him may not be the best bit of business.

Dont think Keegan would want Crouch though. I persoanlly dont like him, i dont think he's a player that scares defendes but is a very awkward attacker. Dont think he has any outstanding attribtues, no real pace, no great strength, his heading is surprisingly poor, one good thing about him s that to be fair to him, his link up play is pretty good. In my opinion Keegan wont sign anyone who hasnt got an outstanding attribute, be it pace, skill or link up play.

This is the big one, aside from David Beckham, Ronaldo is the most marketable player in the world, makes absolutely no sense in selling him, £100m is silly money, but for me, not silly enough.

What about Ruud Van Horseface, dont think he'd demand a huge fee, would no doubt that he'd score stupid amounts ad would be a good name to have in the side. I know he's on the older side but i think id take him over Henry.

I disagree, the money is always useful. No player is worth £100m, not even Ronaldo. One bad tackle and it could be curtains. Spending a further £50m on the youth set up and recruitment and using the other £50m on a giant piss up would produce just as much, if not more, sucess than Ronaldo alone can potentially generate. on the other hand, he could get 25+ goals a season for the next 10 years. Right. So you weigh up the odds. Which is more likely? Alternatively you can avoid the gamble and get a £100m in your hand. I know which route I'd go. Your saying the chance of one career threatening tackle is more likely than him getting a hatful of goals and assists for the next say 6-7 years, even thought he's been notably improving for te past 4 years? Id only sell if i knew Messi would come her for cheaper, he's the only player id consider on the same level as Ronaldo.

But then thats 3 payers replacing the input of one player in a squad, how is those 3 players gonna be accomadated to put in he exact sae input as Ronaldo would?

Ronaldo is the definition of irreplaceble. £100m - no thanks.

I dont think anyone hates him, i personally dont like the treatment he gets, he;s performed no worse of better than alot of defenders in the past 3-4 years yet somehow there are a lot fo people who seem to think that he still has something to offer. I personally dont understand that view to be honest, he's responsible for his own performances and so far in 130 games he hasnt shown anywhere near a decent level of improvement. Id like to see him do well, id love him to be the next terry but for the life of me i cant draw that last bit of optimism out of me, its been drained by the past 4 years of chronically insipid performances.

The fact that Taylor has played at the back with the s**** you mention says it all. How could you learn anything from those players? Tthrow in the abject fullbacks we've had and exposure the back four got from the midfield and I'm surprised he didn't put in a transfer request. At 21 he's still learning and at least has the right attitude which can't be said for everybody. But learning from other players is only part of the process, he hasnt showed one modicom of improvement since his debut yet has had a lot of practise at defendeing. As have the likes of Beye and Faye and they have both come in and looked good in a poor back four. You learn from you're experineces. As for the exposure form the back 4 nonsense, well what are you saying? He's crap becasue he's had to defend alot? No. I'm saying he's a young lad playing in a poor back four that's had little cover from a poor midfield. He's played with a succession of mediocre central defenders that somebody listed above. Plus the fullbacks have been s**** which leads to the back four being pulled all over. I'd say that Terry looks a lot better than he is playing alongside Carvalho, Vidic alonside Ferdinand, anybody alongside Gallas. Throw in their fullbacks who can actually defend and cut out crosses and you have a back four that can play consistently well, grow in confidence and everybody improves and looks good. Taylor has never had that opportunity so it's absurd to compare him with these players who are also much more experienced. But then, if you think Faye is a good central defender as he's average at best and looked like a donkey in some games, what's the point? You'd say Terry looks better playing with Carvahllo, i'd say the Chelsea defence looks better when Terry is playing with Carvahllo. Theres a big difference there. I think its ironic that you call our best centre defender since Woodgate " a donkey in some games" yet have the audacity to defend a player like Taylor. I think you have to look at his indivudial traits such a positioning and heading and anticipation to see what mst of us are on about when we assess Taylor, saying he's poor because he's young and has played with some poor players doesnt really help assess him as an individual defender.

I just don't think he has the attributes. I don't think he doesn't have a brain or anything, just doesn't have the required attributes. What you said actually reminds me of Bramble. Fair point! Starting to agree with you to be honest, if your looking for a true measure of how good a defender is you need to compare them against the best in the world. Comparing them against equals or poorer defender will tell you absolutely nothing, its easy to say that Taylor is better than Bramble, that he's a better passer of the ball, but that is only because Bramble is a terrible passer of the ball. If Taylor wants a true measure of how good he is as a defender he needs to be compared agaisnt he likes of Terry, Ferdinand, Vidic or Toure. To say he's a good defender despite being at least 3 classes below the best isnt a good measure of aplayers ability in my book. Aren't you forgetting that he's 21 and surrounded by s****? How about the rest of our central defenders compared to the four you've mentioned? None of the ones who are 30 are going to get any better so should we ship them all out? So, your saying Taylor is crap because the defender he was with were crap as well? Well what about those defenders? Werent they crap because they themselves were playing with other crap defenders??

I just don't think he has the attributes. I don't think he doesn't have a brain or anything, just doesn't have the required attributes. What you said actually reminds me of Bramble. Fair point! Starting to agree with you to be honest, if your looking for a true measure of how good a defender is you need to compare them against the best in the world. Comparing them against equals or poorer defender will tell you absolutely nothing, its easy to say that Taylor is better than Bramble, that he's a better passer of the ball, but that is only because Bramble is a terrible passer of the ball. If Taylor wants a true measure of how good he is as a defender he needs to be compared agaisnt he likes of Terry, Ferdinand, Vidic or Toure. To say he's a good defender despite being at least 3 classes below the best isnt a good measure of aplayers ability in my book. Aren't you forgetting that he's 21 and surrounded by s****? How about the rest of our central defenders compared to the four you've mentioned? None of the ones who are 30 are going to get any better so should we ship them all out? Ah so the blaming of other people again then. Precisely. That shouldnt stop him being a good defender, it shouldnt stop the ball bouncing over his head and it shouldnt stop him tracking the run of an attacker, the defnders role is an individual role, you can only make yourself look bad because your role in the squad isnt effected much by how the rest of the team play, which is conversely different to say a striker who is practically dependant on the team. Look at Woodgate at Leeds when they were on there way down, he still looked class despite not getting much protection. How about Campbell at Pompey last year.

The fact that Taylor has played at the back with the s**** you mention says it all. How could you learn anything from those players? Tthrow in the abject fullbacks we've had and exposure the back four got from the midfield and I'm surprised he didn't put in a transfer request. At 21 he's still learning and at least has the right attitude which can't be said for everybody. But learning from other players is only part of the process, he hasnt showed one modicom of improvement since his debut yet has had a lot of practise at defendeing. As have the likes of Beye and Faye and they have both come in and looked good in a poor back four. You learn from you're experineces. As for the exposure form the back 4 nonsense, well what are you saying? He's crap becasue he's had to defend alot?

Rooney

I just don't think he has the attributes. I don't think he doesn't have a brain or anything, just doesn't have the required attributes. What you said actually reminds me of Bramble. Fair point! Starting to agree with you to be honest, if your looking for a true measure of how good a defender is you need to compare them against the best in the world. Comparing them against equals or poorer defender will tell you absolutely nothing, its easy to say that Taylor is better than Bramble, that he's a better passer of the ball, but that is only because Bramble is a terrible passer of the ball. If Taylor wants a true measure of how good he is as a defender he needs to be compared agaisnt he likes of Terry, Ferdinand, Vidic or Toure. To say he's a good defender despite being at least 3 classes below the best isnt a good measure of aplayers ability in my book.

They're both equally crap, neither player has any outstanding quality, and both seem to have the exact same attributes. If Taylor played at a lower positioned side do you think going by any of his perfomance that he would stand out as a defender? Same goes for Senderos as well. The only reason Taylor hasnt been cast off as a shit defender like Roz, Cacapa, Bramble, Boums etc is because he's a product of the youth system here, he hasnt dont anything in my opinion to clearly seperate himself from this group of write offs. Reminds me of Oba a little, seems to have the attributes, but doesnt have the brain to put it together. And hasnt done in 130 appereances etc. At least Oba has a telling end product at times.

Cant wait for the season to end, really cant wait to see Ashley show his hand, the way Keegan and alot of other people are talking it could be a huge summer. Keegans mentioned trying to break the world record, now not saying he will, but if he knew that he didnt have that sort of money available then surely he wouldnt set himself up for fall like that.