Kid Icarus

Just a bit aye.

The last 2 seasons only say we finished higher than them. What you attribute that to is another matter.

Probably should tbh.

Trippier, Joelinton, and Livramento were 10s in the final. On that scale you think Thiaw at home to Fulham is at least a 9? Dont think so.

What?

Think I've seen us have a few of those "you shall not pass" last 5 minutes and still concede I don't ever really question any of their desire tbf, it very much seems like a mental humour to get over.

Me when we went 2-1 up with 4 mins of stoppage time left.

The ref was the type I like where he let most things go. The only thing I thought was harsh was the yellow for Woltemade and the non-yellow for Wilson. Tonali would have been sent off with VAR. I get the impression that he did it knowing that.

* Andy Townsend voice* BETTER!

Think it was the right decision to put out a team that wasn't to blame for last Sunday. Not a convincing performance, you can see that the confidence is down, but it had elements to it that has been missing, all the clichéd stuff about wanting it more etc. Winning while working our way back to confidence (and hopefully better performances with it) is ideal. We'll get there man. Keep the faith. Ramsdale: 6.5 Miley: 7.5 Thiaw: 7.5 Schär: 6.5 Livramento: 5.5 Willock: 5.5 Bruno: 7.5 Ramsey: 6.5 Murphy: 7 Wissa: 7 Barnes: 6.5

All the signs of a team playing with heart but lacking self-belief.

In terms of whether he gets criticised amongst our fanbase or not I do think that that's the benchmark tbh. This season hasn't been great, but I think there are more than enough mitigating factors involved to not rush to the assumption that the issue is with Howe.

I think you know what saying 'what he's done for us in the past' when he's our current manager and the past he's done things in was a matter of weeks and months ago reads like. Facts can still infer meaning through how they're presented. I was saying that perfection is the benchmark for not criticising amongst some of our fans, not the club's for whether to keep him. So he wouldn't necessarily be unemployed much in the same way that Pep sitting in 7th last season and Klopp sitting in 10th halfway through 22/23 didn't - albeit you can guarantee there'll have been a few Man City and Liverpool fans wondering whether they'd taken their clubs are far as they could... In reality there is no line for me this season unless you get into pure fantasyland stuff. I back him and believe in him 100%.

The entitlement comes from the fact that there are people who now think we're above having the manager who delivered that 9 months ago, people who think constantly questioning everything he does with perfection as the benchmark is just being realistic or fair. What happened to faith and belief in someone we know has delivered consistently for the best part of 4 years? It's a joke man. I'd understand it if it got to the point of blind faith, but we're talking about the man who took us from the brink of relegation to 4th, 7th, 5th, and a cup win. It's funny how zooming out to look at the bigger picture usually means 'our away form this year' and not -within the same year - winning a cup, qualifying for the Champions League for the second time in 3 years, or how we lost the focal point of our attack, lost our DoF on the eve of the transfer window, lost our CEO with no replacement for a year, had a huge squad turnover, and how the fallout from that was dumped on Howe's desk and he was expected to get on with it. It's myopic and selective as fuck. Talking about what Howe's done as 'what he's done for us in the past' is a good example of that - the way that's presented is like he's here for his second stint as an over the hill manager, or Ranieri post-freak league win. This is the manager who's consistently delivered from the moment he walked into the club 4 years ago. Brownbottle's post was standard modern football fan fare - caring only about 'the club' - which invariably includes not caring about the things many would class as quantifying what the club is. I don't care about the manager, the players, the fans, the stadium, the atmosphere, the city - I just care about the club and what's best for it. Alright.

It's the Eddie Howe thread, so I'm talking about Eddie Howe. Do you think I'm putting the boot in for people simply having a different perspective to me? Or do you think maybe I have more of an issue with what that perspective is? All types of heinousness can be categorised as 'a different perspective' it's about what that perspective is. You're doing it yourself with your 'one league cup win' - yeah I am talking partly about that, that one league cup win in 50-odd or 70-odd years depending on when you're counting from. Or the two champions league qualifications, the complete revolution of our football and our success from the moment he walked in the door - basically everything that Howe has achieved right up until now that is now apparently all up for a chopping block debate in the service of what exactly? Because that's just how football is? Because we should never have to endure any set backs like every other club does? Because we should expect a consistent level of success at all times? No if, buts, maybes, or context? It should be absolutely no surprise why anyone would think of some of our fans as spoiled, deluded, and entitled based on the overreaction to Sunday. And I mean on here just as much as I do anywhere else. Obviously that doesn't mean any criticism - Howe isn't exempt from that at all and I've seen plenty that's measured and fair, but I also think there's an endemic of myopia, amnesia, comparative illusion, and entitlement that's clear to see in a lot of it. The only thing that comes as a bit of a relief is that this isn't worse, even if I do still think 17% with another percentage of people having big doubts about him is in itself shameful.

The spoiled and deluded tag won't just be coming from outside our fanbase. It comes as no surprise to me, but I reckon some are either having their eyes opened about the way the modern football fan sees things, or will have a rude awakening when they themselves realise the grass wasn't greener. For some it seems like it's a badge of honour to be as ruthless as possible about anything and everything, going as far to include one of its most legendary managers in their disregard over honestly barely anything in the context of what he's achieved very recently. Think it's shameful tbh, the nerve of any of our fanbase talking about Liverpool not adhering to their 'you'll never walk alone' motto when our own house is filled with people that make you wonder what supporting a club actually means to them beyond what they can get out of it for themselves in the here and now.

It's not due to it but it's what's caused it.

Yeah, that's basically just a description of the hysteria in my book. I don't even really know where to begin with how ridiculous some of the reaction I've seen has been. You'd think we had Klopp or Guardiola at our door just waiting to join us the way some are going on about what we should be expecting to get at all times.

It was a derby and it was a shit performance so it's always going to have an element of emotion and it's been a frustrating season, but the way people are talking you'd never think we'd won 7 and drawn 2 of our last 12 before Sunday would you.

Don't think I've ever seen such a collective headloss over so little by our fanbase as after Sunday tbh, it's borderline hysteria.

It's similar in that a proportion of our fans still haven't learned anything 20 years later

Potato potahto

What a shout!

Surely it just means space in behind.

You're backing up his point. That's a win ratio of 55%