Kid Icarus

Yes, the people who don't fancy their club being owned by a war criminal are the ones with Stockholm Syndrome. You're on a slippery slope towards driving yourself insane if you're just going to pretend all criticism isn't genuine, even among fellow fans. At the very least, you already look ridiculous while doing it. I haven’t once said that SA human rights was acceptable. I took offence at all the bandwagon jumpers, yourself included who didn’t give two f***s about what was going on over there until now. NIMBYism at its worst. Are you not the bloke who reopened discussion with being past caring and wished us well, only to spent the next few days posting relentlessly about how bad our new owners were? That’s more ridiculous. You see, this is why you look ridiculous. How would you know if I or anyone on here cared about SA human rights abuses before all this? You're just guessing and I know you are because I've been on this forum for the best part of 15 years, have discussed this stuff at length for years (amongst other forum members) and there's been an active thread dedicated to Saudi human rights abuses since 2015. https://www.newcastle-online.org/forum/index.php?topic=97318.0 I'm the bloke who wished you all well before I knew who we were welcoming into our city with open arms, yes. Does me quickly changing my mind once I realised our owner is going to be a war criminal also disqualify me from prefering the club to not be owned by a war criminal? The mental gymnastics to actually avoid dealing with the substance is astounding. If it's not journalists' hypocrisy and the supposed bias against Newcastle, it's the heel turns of Newcastle fans on a football forum. Don’t think many would care, unfortunately. Looks like Deuce was right. P.S I didn't say you said it was acceptable either btw, just that those not wanting a war criminal for a football owner aren't the ones with Stockholm Syndrome.

Yes, the people who don't fancy their club being owned by a war criminal are the ones with Stockholm Syndrome. You're on a slippery slope towards driving yourself insane if you're just going to pretend all criticism isn't genuine, even among fellow fans. At the very least, you already look ridiculous while doing it.

Does no one Google anymore? "Like most #NUFC fans am more than happy to say goodbye to Mr Ashley, who treated fans as he treated his #SportsDirect workers, with contempt. I hope the new owners will provide financial transparency and accountability to fans, as well as investment in the club. I look forward to working w them, hearing their thoughts on the football club, its role in the city & our region, a region that prides itself on community cohesion, social solidarity & human rights for all. I am obviously concerned at the record of the Saudi Govt in these areas!"

As a socialist, sometimes I wonder what Chris Houghton would think about all this

Give it up, man.

Google 'man united saudi', 'man united saudi october 2019', and 'man united saudi general sports authority' and you'll find that there was. https://www.google.com/search?q=man+united+saudi+partnership+october+2019&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB866GB866&sxsrf=ALeKk02mfUO_vG-SI_oMgLbkaeRT1sJLBA:1587559608846&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI5620iPzoAhWOiVwKHbABD4QQ_AUIDSgA&biw=1366&bih=625&dpr=1 https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB866GB866&biw=1366&bih=625&sxsrf=ALeKk02HfCGAQsVswxFR3x4Vcgi2GKMs9A%3A1587559618108&ei=wjygXqelBsWo8gLI54mQCA&q=man+united+saudi+general+sports+authority&oq=man+united+saudi+general+sports+authority&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABOgQIABBHOggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCEQChCgAToECCEQFVDWmgJYg70CYLm-AmgAcAJ4AIAB6AGIAcISkgEGMTYuNy4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwinjuO4iPzoAhVFlFwKHchzAoIQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

Aye. Fans shouldn't feel the need to justify, distract or divert. This is our situation, it's different to every other football takeover in UK history due to it being a State purchase, and it's being played out in public. I feel more that our fans should just let the press get on with it, as a lot of people will be educated about the human rights abuses of the Saudi regime, and may begin to question things and be more aware. I passionately feel that our role in all of this is to celebrate the end of Ashley, be optimistic that our club might be worth supporting again, but be acutely aware who our new owners are and accept that that deserves as much scrutiny as possible whilst refraining from trying to contest that narrative. We don't need to find ways to justify this. That for me has been the biggest headache and has made a lot of our fanbase look irredeemably daft (particularly on f***ing twitter). For example, loads of fans attacking Amnesty for being critical of the takeover is just insane. Agree with all of that and the bit in bold is my bugbear too, particularly as 'support the team not the regime' has been the stance for years and fits the situation, but for some reason has been abandoned in favour of trying to justify it.

Not trying to be antagonistic, but it would be nice if instead of automatically jumping to criticise all of the journalists and organisations 'coming out of the wood work' the people saying it could first do a quick Google search to check it's not actually their own awareness that's coming out of the woodwork and that they just haven't really paid any attention to the Saudi regime until it came into their world.

Not that I think turning cross hairs on Amnesty International is anything but a shameful look anyway, but considering the worldwide power structures they expose and threaten, including the media, it should come as no surprise to anyone that they're regularly accused of that sort of stuff as if it's unique to them. Not saying it's all false by any means, but I'd take it all with a mountain of salt. Either way this is another pointless distraction. Are they right or wrong? They're right, so that's what should be being addressed.

So just to get this straight, we're adding previously adored cartoonist David Squires and Amnesty fucking International to the shit list.

and I'd be delighted if the royal family fucked off forever as well.

He had an anti-capitalism one with an England match alongside just the lyrics from Dead Flag Blues by Godspeed You Black Emperor It's still one of my favourites of his and even though I disagree with him putting the ethical onus on our fans in that last frame, the overall theme isn't out of keeping with his work at all.

I'd get used to it.

Yes they have. Name them I mean you can try and gaslight us all with whatever definition you're working with, but to me and I think a lot of others, responding to legitimate criticisms of a regime by pointing out the sins of other regimes, claiming hypocrisy, bias against Newcastle, jealousy, or any other reason to deflect away from addressing the actual substance of the criticisms is very transparently sticking up for them. There is definitely hypocrisy from specific journalists, they weren't going all in on Man U at the time. Aren't the Saudi's Man U's longest commerical partner too? I understand where some people are coming from but I think journalists need to be calling out everyone including the UK government if they are going down that route. Not just fans who probably don't understand what all of the fuss is about. I don't doubt that there'll be some hypocritical journalists like, I just don't think it's relevant at all or changes anything about the legitimacy of what they're highlighting. Imo the question should be 'is what they're saying true?' not 'is this person telling the truth also a hypocrite?' And that's before getting onto the claims of hypocrisy, double standards etc being levelled at those journalists who've actually consistently spoken out about the Saudis.

Each to their own. I view that as sticking up for them, you don't.

Areet mate. Think the difference is it feels like, although this may be paranoia, that fans are being criticised for this stance by certain parts of the media. Although there was a lot of internal arguing over whether it was right or wrong to go to matches under Ashley, fans were never criticised nationally for taking either stance. Its only natural that folk will get defensive when they're being openly criticised for doing little more than supporting a football team. Obviously this shouldn't then go as far as to start actively defending a horrific regime and the two aren't the same. I defended fans time and time again for attending matches under Ashley, despite hating Ashley with a passion. This again is similar, albeit the crimes of Saudi Arabia are significantly worse than Mike Ashley of course....... That makes sense and I agree that as usual it's the fans that are wrongly getting it in the neck. We have absolutely no control over this whatsoever and aren't in a position to make any meaningful decision on this in the way that our government and the Premier League are. I suppose I just wish that was the argument being put forward with full acknowledgement of who these people are, rather than an argument that tries to deflect from who these people are.

Yes they have. Name them I mean you can try and gaslight us all with whatever definition you're working with, but to me and I think a lot of others, responding to legitimate criticisms of a regime by pointing out the sins of other regimes, claiming hypocrisy, bias against Newcastle, jealousy, or any other reason to deflect away from addressing the actual substance of the criticisms is very transparently sticking up for them.

Foluwashola[/member] Areet! Long time, no see. Surely your stance is just the same as it was under Ashley, that you support the team not the regime? Why do you think folk are suddenly feeling the need to go out of their way to deflect all this shit rather than just maintain the same stance?

Yes they have.

And so all newcastle fans should raise up as one and reject the takeover.......oh please. If the government won't do anything about the Saudi regime, then don't try and guilt trip the newcastle fans. If some want to boycott then that is their choice but don't try to press gang us. Funny when we where boycotting Ashley, the media basically shrugged its shoulders, told us to know our place and treated us as an irritation. Well why should I now pay attention to the same media asking for my support. My reactions, shrug of the shoulder and I know my place......what can I do about it..... I'm not saying that Newcastle fans should do that, I'm saying you putting forward the idea that this was published specifically because it's Newcastle, and not because it's one of the most famously evil people in the world, is absolutely ridiculous. Squires has consistently backed Newcastle fans in boycotting and trying to oust Ashley for years, so your point about the media as a whole doesn't hold weight, particularly as Squires has highlighted Ashley's human rights record many times and no one took issue with it, presumably because Ashley wasn't buying footballer players, which is objectively worse than bombing children's hospitals.

Don't talk about the people bombing childrens hospitals unless you don't support any football clubs, is essentially the road you're heading down because there's no team in Europe that won't fear us blowing them out of the water by that line of reasoning. By all means talk about people bombing childrens hospitals if that is what you are passionate about, more power to you. But if you are a mackem who has suddenly grown a conscience and decided to give me a lecture about this newly discovered abomination, then I reserve the right to be sceptical. But I'm not though, I'm quite literally one of your own who has the same concerns as these journalists. The things being highlighted don't hold any less merit because of who's saying it if it can be verified as true. Shooting the messenger and ignoring the substance is how dafties in America have ended up automatically defending war criminals and a corrupt media, solely because Trump's one of the people pointing it out. # I wasn't literally talking about you, I was using the mackem example to make a point. I'm sure you get the point I'm making though. Out of curiosity, are you going to stop following the team all together if this proposed takeover goes through? The more I think about this takeover, the harder it is to acquiesce with. Yet at the same time, it seems like any such takeover in the modern game was destined to be from a source as unpalatable as this. My stance on it at the moment is that I'll continue doing what I'm doing at the moment, not give the club any money and I'll watch us on Telly. I'll see what happens from there, but none of this sits right with me and my concern is that so many of us are so desperate to get rid of Ashley that our fans and the city have done a deal with the devil. I dunno if I'm being hyperbolic, but when I was thinking about it last night I was more worried about what the impact of having someone like that associated with and in and amongst our city could be tbh. Before we even know what the full extent of that'll be, overnight we have a significant amount of people sticking up for war criminals who wouldn't have dreamed of doing so yesterday calling other people hypocrites for pointing out. I'm laughing, but it's shit tbh.

Why is that relevant?

Yeah, it'll be specifically because it's Newcastle, not because the world's most notorious Bond villain is buying a premier league club.

Are you honestly comfortably being in a position where you're trying to point out the supposed hypocrisy of Amnesty International?

Don't talk about the people bombing childrens hospitals unless you don't support any football clubs, is essentially the road you're heading down because there's no team in Europe that won't fear us blowing them out of the water by that line of reasoning. By all means talk about people bombing childrens hospitals if that is what you are passionate about, more power to you. But if you are a mackem who has suddenly grown a conscience and decided to give me a lecture about this newly discovered abomination, then I reserve the right to be sceptical. But I'm not though, I'm quite literally one of your own who has the same concerns as these journalists. The things being highlighted don't hold any less merit because of who's saying it if it can be verified as true. Shooting the messenger and ignoring the substance is how dafties in America have ended up automatically defending war criminals and a corrupt media, solely because Trump's one of the people pointing it out. # I wasn't literally talking about you, I was using the mackem example to make a point. I'm sure you get the point I'm making though.