Holmesy

I couldn't agree more. I actually started a thread about our identity, questioning what it is - genuine question as well - but predictably, it got hijacked by the Eddie die-hards and died a death. We had one, at first team level at least. Now we just look a mess. Again, using the most successful clubs as a benchmark - their DNA runs from the juniors all the way up to the first team, which means players in the youth setup can transition into the first team more easily - Man City, Barca, Real Madrid, Man Utd in their pomp. And this is probably my biggest disappointment post-takeover - we are the richest club in the world but nothing we do evidences that. We don't do anything better than other teams despite having the financial resources to lead the way in whatever we want - youth development, scouting, academy setup, training facilities, strategic partnerships, technology, community involvement, infrastructure etc. I don't know where that buck stops but it does point to either lack of ambition or poor leadership at the very top.

There's a lot of value in long terms managers who evolve. Eddie doesn't, at all - same formation, same coaches, same playbook. If there were signs of evolution and Eddie learning from his mistakes and adapting, I don't think there'd be a single person questioning him. But he is so rigidly wedded to his one idea of playing, despite it clearly diminishing in its effectiveness, that I think it's only right that questions are being asked.

All sounds absolutely spot on tbh. Exactly what's needed.

And have you ever heard of another Premier League team having to essentially stop training because they're in a European campaign? I haven't, we're the only one. And our aspirations are to be in the CL every season. So, as has been said before, Eddie's current style of management is not suited to a team competing on two fronts. We can't go through this debacle every time.

I'm talking about the games, not the training....that we can't do anyway because we're in Europe.....again. It's more of a fucking hindrance than a reward - might as well forfeit our place next time. We do the same things IN GAMES, that isn't working. And the response is to do the same things in games, and it continues to not work. And then we do it again.

If Eddie came out and said 'we're transitioning to a new style of play that's easier on the players and it's going to take a while to bed in' that's the kind of transition that I think everyone would accept, despite our form, because there would be a better outcome at the end of it. And i think we'd have confidence that he could make it work. But we're not transitioning to anything, we're just shit and planning on doing the same thing until something clicks. And then we'll probably continue to do that same thing all next season. Transitions are by design.

Dipped is different to completely fell off a cliff though. They have played 2 fewer European games than us this season, and are 8 league places above us.

European football doesn't seem to have affected Villa, and they have a similar sized squad to ours. Could it be that Emery has developed a style of football that is more conducive to playing in multiple competitions? When we talk about possession football, it's pretty obvious why all the top teams play it - they can manage the game, tire out the opposition and manage their own energy expenditure to prevent fatigue. There's a reason all of the elite managers play it. We, on the other hand, run around relentlessly, chase back constantly because we can't keep possession and end up fucking knackered, and injured. A new manager doesn't have to prioritise one or the other if they play the right kind of football. In fact, Eddie doesn't have to prioritise one or the other if he realised what is staring all of us in the face, and changed his fucking philosophy.

I think we're about to see what our defenders can do when properly organised, and with some protection in front of them.

I'm not sure about that. The top 5 is pretty much locked out - Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Man Utd, Chelsea. The next tier is where we sit IMO - Villa, Spurs (if they ever get their shit together) and us Next tier down - Everton probably And then everyone else. Given's Spurs' current plight, I would say par for us this season would be 6th and in any other given season is 6th-7th. Anything above that is over-achieving.

But they are still there or thereabouts. And I absolutely take your point about the money spent because it needs to be mentioned. But their drop-off is usually one or two league places. They will still have a mean defence, still have a potent attack, will still play good football and will challenge for honours. Let's say we give Eddie this season as on off-season - what would we have to see next season for it to have been worth backing and keeping him?

Your contributions to this forum and this discussion are enlightening. Please don't ever leave.

One example referencing one of the greatest managers of all time, who himself was a ruthless fuckers - he constantly changed his coaching staff to keep things fresh, dropped players when they didn't perform and sold players when they questioned his authority. The mere fact that an off-season for him was not winning the league tells you everything. He, and they as a club at the time, were an anomaly. Look at Pep at City as well - although his teams are built from the same DNA, his current city team are a far cry from his first, his Barca team, his Bayern team. At one point last season, they had played more long balls than any other team in the PL. He is ruthless with players - when they don't hit his standards any more, they are moved on. No room for sentiment when results are the name of the game. Pep mixes things up, adjusts his game-plans when he feels teams are starting to get to grips with them, and evolves constantly. We have the same gameplan we had at the start, the same coaching team we had at the start, play the same formation we played at the start, and we have adjusted very little. I know this is moving away from the original point, but it's worth mentioning.

OK. Tell that to all those managers who have been sacked after getting teams promoted, winning cups, winning leagues etc. Football is one of the most ruthless businesses in the world, and the most successful teams tend to be the most ruthless - Man City, Real Madrid, Juventus, Liverpool, Man Utd, PSG, the list goes on.

You're only as good as your last result unfortunately. What he did at Bournemouth was exceptional but eventually he bounced off a ceiling and took them down. It happens. You look at the situation and say "he's done it before and i'm confident he'll do it again.". I look at it and see a league that has changed, a clear pattern emerging when we play in Europe, a playbook that has become stale and ineffective, and no visible signs that our glaring weaknesses are being addressed. I'm sure you see the same things as well, but where we differ is that you have ultimate faith he will address them and turn it around. I'm rapidly losing mine.

The mitigating factors only mitigate certain things though. They don't mitigate all of it. I fucking love Eddie. I don't think there are many more genuine, hardworking and inspirational figures in the game of football and we have been lucky to have him. And we might continue to be lucky to have him. But you can't argue that some fundamental things have to change for that to happen? What he has achieved will never be forgotten and no amount of shit performance will erase the brilliant moments he has given us. The way he has represented the club has been a breath of fresh air after the precession of chancers and arseholes we had to endure before him. And it's fucking sad to type this stuff and feel this way but it is playing out in front of our eyes. Do we place sentiment above our desire for this club to keep improving? Could he give us another exciting season after this one? Yeah, probably. Could he do it with the same playbook as the past few season? I doubt it. I believe we've seen enough to suggest his approach has a ceiling and I think we've already hit it and bounced off it. But I genuinely hope i'm wrong.

Isak leaving has contributed to a disjointed attack, no doubt, but he never played DM or CB so it doesn't explain our shocking defending. Board room disruption probably accounts for our lack of transfer window preparation and our shit acquisitions. Again, doesn't explain why we can't defend for shit or why our players aren't coached to retain possession. Illness, who knows. Maybe it has knocked Eddie more than we know and affected his decision making or energy on the training pitch. None of it explains why we only have one gameplan, can't keep possession and are consistently wide open at the back. That is down to the manager alone. Plenty of lesser teams have built defensively resilient units with lesser players than we have. When we're consistently throwing away points, it would be a good place for us to start, but it's not Eddie's M.O. Seemingly, he would rather throw away points trying to win than collect points setting us up to be hard to beat and building from there when his original plan-A isn't working.

Arguments for seem to focus around what he has done in the past, a few decent halves of football this season that ultimately came to nothing and him being a fantastic ambassador for the club (which can never be argued against). Plus the old favourite - fatigue. The argument against: He only has one playbook (by his own admission) and when that doesn't work, it's more of the same. We are as defensively disorganised as we have been for a very long time and nothing seems to be changing. We have had two European seasons now where our league form has suffered, suggesting his style is not suited to an intense campaign on two fronts The signings made in the summer were not good and have set us back significantly We are not seeing the individual player improvements we have in the past. Maybe due to lack of time on the training pitch, but if our only answer to a congested fixture list is to not train, that points to a bigger, overarching problem. Our away form has been shocking for a good while Our performances in second halves of games this season have been consistently poor. His plan A only approach means in-game changes are largely limited to substitutions, which often come too late We cannot close out games We cannot retain possession, which is the key reason for the point above Teams are routinely getting beyond our midfield and into our defence with 1-3 passes and it isn't being addressed He doesn't seem good at working with a DoF We have consistently struggled to break down stubborn defences due to a lack of technical prowess and guile in midfield This isn't kneejerk stuff based on a couple of results. Some of these points have been true throughout his tenure here but they have been papered over by our ability to score more than the opposition. It feels like we've been found out and Eddie's response is to keep doing the same thing until it turns around, which there is no sign of it doing. Yes, there are some mitigating circumstances - Board room instability, Isak leaving, illness etc. But none of it excuses what we are seeing on the pitch, especially on the defensive side of things. There is no lack of gratitude for what he has achieved and the memories he has given us. All of us would love him to turn it around but I just don't see how that can happen when the route causes of our problems are not being addressed.

Completely forgot he existed but yeah, someone like that.

All of our players are technically capable of retaining the ball, with the probable exceptions of Murphy and Elanga, but they're not coached that way. Our squad is full of international footballers - if we wanted them to retain the ball, it would be evident in the way we play.

Alright, naming no names, this is who I think we need: Possession-based (absolutely critical) Tactically flexible (in game management as well as setup) Has worked well under a DoF Enough gravitas to attract top tier players Track record of winning trophies (more than one) Favours youth development No idea who fits that mould.

I always find this a really odd question/insinuation. As if suggesting the manager needs replacing but not offering a replacement renders the suggestion redundant. I can probably name 12-15 managers in total in all of football because i am interested in Newcastle United, not keeping a mental roster of who's who in football management.

Absolutely incredible and that shouldn't be taken away from him. But it ended the way it did because of his stubbornness and unwillingness to change things. Which seems to be playing out again.

There has to be a desire to move away from plan A when it isn't working though. In Eddie's own words "if you have too many Plan Bs, it means your Plan A is flawed and your players are thinking what's next rather than trying to deliver Plan A to the best of their ability." Our plan A is flawed, seriously flawed and Eddie's answer to it is to do more of plan A. The lack of plan B and tactically inflexibility is something that has been levelled at him for 3 seasons, maybe more but we've had enough success that it was largely covered up. This season that weakness has been seriously exposed for the first time and it seems he has no answer because of the above mindset.

I've thought he'd hit a ceiling a while ago and it comes down to some fundamental things - all of the most dominant teams at both club and international level are possession-based. They look after the ball and in doing so dictate the pace of the game (important when you're managing fatigue) professionally closing out games and tiring out the opposition by retaining the ball. It is the basis on which all teams that win consistently are built. We are not and never have been a possession team under EH and it doesn't look like there are any designs on being one. Couple that with a workload that increases significantly when we get into Europe, causing us to have to abandon training and deal with a raft of injuries, and you have a setup that simply isn't fit for purpose. Eddie's style has got us Champions League twice and won us a domestic cup but it won't take us any further. Sure, we might win another domestic trophy and get back into Europe when we have a lighter workload (the cycle repeating again) but unless our footballing philosophy changes, we won't go any further. He has stabilised us and given us some of the best memories we've ever had but if we do genuinely have aspirations of winning leagues and competing for major honours, it will have to be under someone else, unless Eddie completely rips up his playbook and does away with the kamikaze stuff. I'm not slagging him off or saying he is a shit manager. He's a very good manager for teams with a certain level of ambition but he either needs to evolve significantly (and quickly) or move aside and let someone better build on the foundations he has created.