Nail your colours to the mast: Sack or No Sack?

[Guest Sniffer]

It's getting very close to the time that Ashley has to show what he's made of. IMO, it's a given that we'll lose the next two games and the season is effectively over bar a flirtation with the third relegation spot. Ashley has to decide if he's going to back Fat Sam with serious money but I'm inclined to think that he's got more sense and recognizes that Allardyce is out of his depth.

[ChezGiven]

Mick you can not discount the evidence from his previous jobs.

 

Here is a good analogy.

 

There is a very famous northern company that through its short-termist strategies has left itself failng as a business. There is no doubt that wholesale changes are required throughout the whole company, although the fundamental infrastructure of the business is sound.

 

You sack the CEO and bring in a new man with a track record of success in his field. He struggles initially and after 6 months, there have been some signs that things might be improving but there are still concerns. As chairman of the company, do you take account of the man's previous record in assessing the first 6 months or do you look only at the performance in his current role? Even when you know the whole strategy of the company had to change?

 

Basically, when Northern Rock bring in a new management team, how long do they get? When the decision is uncertain (like whether to make another huge change atthe top) what information do you draw upon?

[Dr Venkman]

 

so you think a managers past record is irrelevant and shouldn't be considered when deciding whether to appoint him or not ?

 

 

No, he's here and what he does from the day he took over until the day he goes is all that matters now.

 

it means what I said. You are not taking into account his past record. You are saying his past record is irrelevant, because he's had 13 games here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see how you come to that conclusion

 

So. As HTT pointed out too, his 8 years at Bolton isn't grounds for saying that he isn't worth more than 13 games here ? Just for clarification 

 

Just for clarification, all that matters now that he's here is what he does while he's here.  Also, I've only said that we should get rid of him if we can get somebody in who is better and I'd probably give him until the end of the season to see what he can do here.

 

FWIW, it also nails the theory that having all the summer to "plan" is the way to do things, because as we can all see now, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whatsoever.

 

 

 

come on now, you cant seriously believe that?

 

Can you tell me, in all seriousness, that the opportunity to appoint a manager of the calibre of Wenger, should be turned down just because it was the "wrong time". ?

 

 

 

no, but thats not what you said, at least not in the bit i quoted. you said that having a pre season makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, based on the fact that allardyce had one and that we now aren't doing so well.  surely if you've made your managerial choice, having a pre season with them in charge is better than not?

[BlufPurdi]

He needs to be given time. His whole reputation is based on him building teams, not improving things from the off. When we hired Roeder and Souness, we pissed and moaned that they had no track record of... well, anything, bar ruining teams, so we had good grounds to cry out for their heads, but we got the exact opposite in Allardyce. Someone with a track record, a good one, albeit not the world's best, but we have him now and we have to stick with him for a reasonable length of time.

 

Just now I'm saying the rest of the season as I am a little concerned. At the beginning of this season I was saying at least two years, which to be honest, is the right amount.

 

I'm firmly in the Yes: Keep the big man no matter what camp.

 

What saddens me most though, guys, is that every other set of supporters predicted we'd be like this, and by this time. We're utterly pathetic. Sometimes I wish we still had Shepherd, then perhaps the insane levels of expectations may never have arrived.

 

I know a lot of people who have no interest in Newcastle who think he's been found out and can't hack it away from Bolton. They expected him to do well but now think he can't.

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

 

It's one thing to have your initial expectations wiped out, it's quite another to be seriously calling for the guy's head after so little time (not directed at you). Christ, we gave fucking Roeder and Souness longer, two horrific managers, with absolutely nothing in their history to suggest they'd ever get it right, but Allardyce has.

 

Allardyce hasn't turned out to be as great as I thought either, but then maybe I am (we, all of us) just expecting too much too soon. Obviously performances like the last two simply are not on, but we really do need to get a grip of ourselves as a set of supporters. Let's remember Mick, it's not only managers we chase out of town at the first sign of trouble, we do it with players too. It's a deep-rooted problem we have, and sadly I don't think it's something that can really be 'fixed', perhaps just something that success will finally drive away.

 

He has implemented a lot of off-field 'stuff' (couldn't really tell you what mind ), which I am more than sure will have an effect on our team in the long-term, I highly doubt we've seen the benefits of that. I, for one, would like to though, and not see him sacked before anything he's tried to do here actually has a chance to work. Managers get team selections wrong all the time, managers look like they've 'finally lost it' all the time too, the real point is, good managers learn from their mistakes and hopefully Allardyce is one of them. Time is the only thing that will allow us to find out though, otherwise all hail Paul Jewell, Newcastle's next saviour...

 

Cause we ain't getting anyone better, not after our recent past. New owners or not, it's the fans that make the decisions round here.  Or should I say, the one's that are loud enough.

[Guest Sniffer]

Nothing to suggest that Souness could get it right in his history?  You mean apart from the fact that he has actually won tropies?

[NE5]

 

so you think a managers past record is irrelevant and shouldn't be considered when deciding whether to appoint him or not ?

 

 

No, he's here and what he does from the day he took over until the day he goes is all that matters now.

 

it means what I said. You are not taking into account his past record. You are saying his past record is irrelevant, because he's had 13 games here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see how you come to that conclusion

 

So. As HTT pointed out too, his 8 years at Bolton isn't grounds for saying that he isn't worth more than 13 games here ? Just for clarification 

 

Just for clarification, all that matters now that he's here is what he does while he's here.  Also, I've only said that we should get rid of him if we can get somebody in who is better and I'd probably give him until the end of the season to see what he can do here.

 

FWIW, it also nails the theory that having all the summer to "plan" is the way to do things, because as we can all see now, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whatsoever.

 

 

 

come on now, you cant seriously believe that?

 

Can you tell me, in all seriousness, that the opportunity to appoint a manager of the calibre of Wenger, should be turned down just because it was the "wrong time". ?

 

 

 

no, but thats not what you said, at least not in the bit i quoted. you said that having a pre season makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, based on the fact that allardyce had one and that we now aren't doing so well.  surely if you've made your managerial choice, having a pre season with them in charge is better than not?

 

I'll phrase it differently then. Its no guarantee of success then ? And - do you think it HAS made any difference so far ? My point is that the right man is all that matters, not the timing. Bobby Robson took over from Gullit, and did brilliantly despite having no pre-season preparation, far better than his predecessor, Dalglish, Souness, Roeder and now Allardyce. All of whom had an entire summer before being booted out of the club.

 

I can - and I bet you could as well - guarantee that our fortunes would improve immediatelty if a manager like Wenger walked through the door.

 

 

[BlufPurdi]

Nothing to suggest that Souness could get it right in his history?  You mean apart from the fact that he has actually won tropies?

 

Go on, list them.  I could do with a laugh.

[Optimistic Nut]

Taking N'Zogbia off left 3 central midfielders and a right-sided one. The right-sided one then played on the left. N'Zogbia was poor yesterday but I put that down to the formation as much as anything and everyone, just about, was poor in any case. When Allardyce did change things to a more conventional 4-4-2 he didn't give N'Zogbia enough of a chance to make an impact in his favoured position imo. Taking the young un off was the 'easy option' though rather than biting the bullet and replacing one of the central midfielders.

 

At a push he could have even taken off Viduka, put Smith up-front and simply put Milner on the right. N'Zogbia coming off was a joke.

[Cajun]

Souness was well on his way down when we paid Blackburn for his services, seem to remember their fans weren't too upset about it (well crying with laughter to be precise). Slightly different reactions with Bolton though weren't there?

[Optimistic Nut]

Nothing to suggest that Souness could get it right in his history?  You mean apart from the fact that he has actually won tropies?

 

Go on, list them.  I could do with a laugh.

 

At a time when Blackburn & Bolton were very much on a par in terms of club size, Blackburn won the League Cup and finished top 6 under Souness.

[BlufPurdi]

Nothing to suggest that Souness could get it right in his history? You mean apart from the fact that he has actually won tropies?

 

Go on, list them. I could do with a laugh.

 

At a time when Blackburn & Bolton were very much on a par in terms of club size, Blackburn won the League Cup and finished top 6 under Souness.

 

That's me sold. Get him back, what ever were we thinking.

[Mick]

 

 

which goes without saying, this applies to anybody. The last bit also appears to suggest that you would get rid of him if someone came along, but would give him until the end of the season if say, Arsene Wenger suddenly walked out of Arsenal. Or do you agree, that there is no bad time to get the right manager or sack someone who you think is losing the plot ?

 

FWIW, it also nails the theory that having all the summer to "plan" is the way to do things, because as we can all see now, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whatsoever.

 

I hold my hands up and say I wanted Allardyce, I can hardly say differently as I posted it hundreds of times, but he's now testing my patience. Severely. If nothing changes quickly I would advocate sacking him immediately, you have to do it, you can't wait. While I know that it was supposed to be a long term fix, we can't afford to get relegated. And I, and others of my age and yours, have waited long enough and been frustrated for too long to be told by people and smartarse journalists and pundits who don't support Newcastle, to be patient.

 

 

 

Good post, I must admit that I was being evasive because I thought this was going to become a board/bored thread which I'm sick of and also no longer relevant.  I hope we can all get over that phase and move on, it has been going on for something like 2 years.  

 

The problem with sackings during the season is the lack of people who are available, let's hope he turns out to be capable of turning things around, it's easier for all of us.

 

I can understand people who wanted him, I can see why they would.  He's won nothing but he's managed a small club from nothing to qualifying for Europe so I doubt I'd try to throw it in your face if he fails because I understand what he had going for him.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, I thought that he was the right man for the job when we appointed him because I couldn't think of anybody else who we could have brought in that would have been better for the club at that time.  Agree or not but it would have taken a special type of person to come here with the debt that we knew we had and try to bring success.  Because of that we got the best man for the job, if it doesn’t turn out that way then I don’t think it’s a case of anybody being wrong, he could still turn the club around.

 

I’ve never really complained about the timing of a sacking other than Sir Bobby and that was because I still thought that he could have done a job for us and I’m quite sure we wouldn’t be in this state if he’d helped bring in his successor and this has nothing to do with past personalities, what’s gone is history, I’d prefer to look at the present and future.

 

If we could sack a failing manager and replace him with a Wenger then that should be done, no matter when it was, patience wouldn’t enter into it for me.

 

For the record, I don’t think we need to sack Allardyce yet but our form is worrying.

[madras]

He needs to be given time.  His whole reputation is based on him building teams, not improving things from the off.  When we hired Roeder and Souness, we pissed and moaned that they had no track record of... well, anything, bar ruining teams, so we had good grounds to cry out for their heads, but we got the exact opposite in Allardyce.  Someone with a track record, a good one, albeit not the world's best, but we have him now and we have to stick with him for a reasonable length of time. 

 

Just now I'm saying the rest of the season as I am a little concerned.  At the beginning of this season I was saying at least two years, which to be honest, is the right amount.

 

I'm firmly in the Yes: Keep the big man no matter what camp.

 

What saddens me most though, guys, is that every other set of supporters predicted we'd be like this, and by this time.  We're utterly pathetic.  Sometimes I wish we still had Shepherd, then perhaps the insane levels of expectations may never have arrived.

 

I know a lot of people who have no interest in Newcastle who think he's been found out and can't hack it away from Bolton.  They expected him to do well but now think he can't.

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

 

It's one thing to have your initial expectations wiped out, it's quite another to be seriously calling for the guy's head after so little time (not directed at you).  Christ, we gave f****** Roeder and Souness longer, two horrific managers, with absolutely nothing in their history to suggest they'd ever get it right, but Allardyce has.

 

Allardyce hasn't turned out to be as great as I thought either, but then maybe I am (we, all of us) just expecting too much too soon.  Obviously performances like the last two simply are not on, but we really do need to get a grip of ourselves as a set of supporters.  Let's remember Mick, it's not only managers we chase out of town at the first sign of trouble, we do it with players too.  It's a deep-rooted problem we have, and sadly I don't think it's something that can really be 'fixed', perhaps just something that success will finally drive away. 

 

He has implemented a lot of off-field 'stuff' (couldn't really tell you what mind ), which I am more than sure will have an effect on our team in the long-term, I highly doubt we've seen the benefits of that.  I, for one, would like to though, and not see him sacked before anything he's tried to do here actually has a chance to work.  Managers get team selections wrong all the time, managers look like they've 'finally lost it' all the time too, the real point is, good managers learn from their mistakes and hopefully Allardyce is one of them.  Time is the only thing that will allow us to find out though, otherwise all hail Paul Jewell, Newcastle's next saviour...

 

Cause we ain't getting anyone better, not after our recent past.  New owners or not, it's the fans that make the decisions round here.

it's not just the last two though is it ? derby,sunderland,reading,boro,even citeh,coupled with liverpool and pompey is over half the games.

 

i'm not advocating an outright sacking just yet but IF we have good money at our disposal (not necissarily ashleys as with the debt paid off those prior debt repayments which wewre club generated could now be used on team strengthening ) then we will be a very good looking opportunity for quality managers.

[Dr Venkman]

 

so you think a managers past record is irrelevant and shouldn't be considered when deciding whether to appoint him or not ?

 

 

No, he's here and what he does from the day he took over until the day he goes is all that matters now.

 

it means what I said. You are not taking into account his past record. You are saying his past record is irrelevant, because he's had 13 games here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see how you come to that conclusion

 

So. As HTT pointed out too, his 8 years at Bolton isn't grounds for saying that he isn't worth more than 13 games here ? Just for clarification 

 

Just for clarification, all that matters now that he's here is what he does while he's here.  Also, I've only said that we should get rid of him if we can get somebody in who is better and I'd probably give him until the end of the season to see what he can do here.

 

FWIW, it also nails the theory that having all the summer to "plan" is the way to do things, because as we can all see now, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whatsoever.

 

 

 

come on now, you cant seriously believe that?

 

Can you tell me, in all seriousness, that the opportunity to appoint a manager of the calibre of Wenger, should be turned down just because it was the "wrong time". ?

 

 

 

no, but thats not what you said, at least not in the bit i quoted. you said that having a pre season makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, based on the fact that allardyce had one and that we now aren't doing so well.  surely if you've made your managerial choice, having a pre season with them in charge is better than not?

 

I'll phrase it differently then. Its no guarantee of success then ? And - do you think it HAS made any difference so far ? My point is that the right man is all that matters, not the timing. Bobby Robson took over from Gullit, and did brilliantly despite having no pre-season preparation, far better than his predecessor, Dalglish, Souness, Roeder and now Allardyce.

 

 

 

no, its not a guarantee of success, but thats a moot point as i don't believe there are ANY guarantess of success, obviously the right man matters, but its better to have a pre season with him than not, that would be my point

[BlufPurdi]

He needs to be given time.  His whole reputation is based on him building teams, not improving things from the off.  When we hired Roeder and Souness, we pissed and moaned that they had no track record of... well, anything, bar ruining teams, so we had good grounds to cry out for their heads, but we got the exact opposite in Allardyce.  Someone with a track record, a good one, albeit not the world's best, but we have him now and we have to stick with him for a reasonable length of time. 

 

Just now I'm saying the rest of the season as I am a little concerned.  At the beginning of this season I was saying at least two years, which to be honest, is the right amount.

 

I'm firmly in the Yes: Keep the big man no matter what camp.

 

What saddens me most though, guys, is that every other set of supporters predicted we'd be like this, and by this time.  We're utterly pathetic.  Sometimes I wish we still had Shepherd, then perhaps the insane levels of expectations may never have arrived.

 

I know a lot of people who have no interest in Newcastle who think he's been found out and can't hack it away from Bolton.  They expected him to do well but now think he can't.

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

 

It's one thing to have your initial expectations wiped out, it's quite another to be seriously calling for the guy's head after so little time (not directed at you).  Christ, we gave f****** Roeder and Souness longer, two horrific managers, with absolutely nothing in their history to suggest they'd ever get it right, but Allardyce has.

 

Allardyce hasn't turned out to be as great as I thought either, but then maybe I am (we, all of us) just expecting too much too soon.  Obviously performances like the last two simply are not on, but we really do need to get a grip of ourselves as a set of supporters.  Let's remember Mick, it's not only managers we chase out of town at the first sign of trouble, we do it with players too.  It's a deep-rooted problem we have, and sadly I don't think it's something that can really be 'fixed', perhaps just something that success will finally drive away. 

 

He has implemented a lot of off-field 'stuff' (couldn't really tell you what mind ), which I am more than sure will have an effect on our team in the long-term, I highly doubt we've seen the benefits of that.  I, for one, would like to though, and not see him sacked before anything he's tried to do here actually has a chance to work.  Managers get team selections wrong all the time, managers look like they've 'finally lost it' all the time too, the real point is, good managers learn from their mistakes and hopefully Allardyce is one of them.  Time is the only thing that will allow us to find out though, otherwise all hail Paul Jewell, Newcastle's next saviour...

 

Cause we ain't getting anyone better, not after our recent past.  New owners or not, it's the fans that make the decisions round here.

it's not just the last two though is it ? derby,sunderland,reading,boro,even citeh,coupled with liverpool and pompey is over half the games.

 

i'm not advocating an outright sacking just yet but IF we have good money at our disposal (not necissarily ashleys as with the debt paid off those prior debt repayments which wewre club generated could now be used on team strengthening ) then we will be a very good looking opportunity for quality managers.

 

I never said it was 'just' the last two though, what I mean was they were simply not on.  The bottom of the barrel stuff.  The other games, whilst poor, disappointing, demoralising, well, they happen over the course of a season.  Not many teams go all season playing great, and not many managers get their teams playing the way they actually want them to within such a short time.  All teams have bad patches.

 

I know if this exact post had been used for Souness or Roeder, I'd have pissed myself laughing at it, but the fact is Allardyce has a record of building teams.  That record is enough for me to keep faith in him and expect a season of progression.  The season's not even over, yet we have people acting like we've just finished it, and finished it just above the relegation zone.

[ChezGiven]

Taking N'Zogbia off left 3 central midfielders and a right-sided one. The right-sided one then played on the left. N'Zogbia was poor yesterday but I put that down to the formation as much as anything and everyone, just about, was poor in any case. When Allardyce did change things to a more conventional 4-4-2 he didn't give N'Zogbia enough of a chance to make an impact in his favoured position imo. Taking the young un off was the 'easy option' though rather than biting the bullet and replacing one of the central midfielders.

 

At a push he could have even taken off Viduka, put Smith up-front and simply put Milner on the right. N'Zogbia coming off was a joke.

 

Why is taking one of the worst performers on the pitch off a joke?

 

Or are you basing your judgement on previous performances? Fair enough if you are but then i'd expect you to take account of the manager's previous record in assessing him too (which you may do, i havent checked, that could sound unfair so sorry)?

 

That last bit was just in case anyone doesnt want to take account of the manager's previous record but also thought the decision to take Zog off was worth a boo. And because i'm a fan of logical thought.

[Guest Sniffer]

Championships and cups at Rangers, FA Cup at Liverpool, something or other in Turkey. Not the most impressive list,  but infinitely better than Fat Sam who hasn't actually won anything.

 

But hey, let's not let something like the facts spoil a post that is basically tripe, eh, bluf?

[Mick]

Mick you can not discount the evidence from his previous jobs.

 

Here is a good analogy.

 

There is a very famous northern company that through its short-termist strategies has left itself failng as a business. There is no doubt that wholesale changes are required throughout the whole company, although the fundamental infrastructure of the business is sound.

 

You sack the CEO and bring in a new man with a track record of success in his field. He struggles initially and after 6 months, there have been some signs that things might be improving but there are still concerns. As chairman of the company, do you take account of the man's previous record in assessing the first 6 months or do you look only at the performance in his current role? Even when you know the whole strategy of the company had to change?

 

Basically, when Northern Rock bring in a new management team, how long do they get? When the decision is uncertain (like whether to make another huge change atthe top) what information do you draw upon?

 

I only discount what he's done in the past because what he does here is the only thing which is now relevant, I'm not saying that we've got to win every game and start filling up the trophy cabinet.  You mentioned an analogy and have mentioned signs of improvement, I think we should expect the same from Allardyce and so far we're not seeing it.

[Wullie]

The reason N'Zogbia was having fuck all luck, apart from the fact that he did just generally have a shit game, was that there was two men on him every single time and no opportunity to switch the play because there was absolutely no-one on the other flank. Liverpool therefore could easily afford to double up on our left with no danger of being caught out with a switch of the play.

 

Regardless of how he'd been playing, we should have gone to two wingers on the correct sides and tried to stretch them.

[Guest Sniffer]

N'zogbia was totally and utterly fucking useless yesterday and didn't look like he was going to get any better as the game wore on. In fact, he was getting worse.. How anybody can object to subbing him is beyond me.

[BlufPurdi]

Championships and cups at Rangers, FA Cup at Liverpool, something or other in Turkey. Not the most impressive list, but infinitely better than Fat Sam who hasn't actually won anything.

 

But hey, let's not let something like the facts spoil a post that is basically tripe, eh, bluf?

 

Like I said, Allardyce has a record of building teams, good ones. Souness had a record of luck mixed with massive amounts of disappointment.

 

Utterly bizarre that all the teams he won cups with wanted rid of him, eh.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'll forget to mention the other teams he outright failed with (something Allardyce hasn't done, yet). Wouldn't want things to get messy...

[madras]

He needs to be given time.  His whole reputation is based on him building teams, not improving things from the off.  When we hired Roeder and Souness, we pissed and moaned that they had no track record of... well, anything, bar ruining teams, so we had good grounds to cry out for their heads, but we got the exact opposite in Allardyce.  Someone with a track record, a good one, albeit not the world's best, but we have him now and we have to stick with him for a reasonable length of time. 

 

Just now I'm saying the rest of the season as I am a little concerned.  At the beginning of this season I was saying at least two years, which to be honest, is the right amount.

 

I'm firmly in the Yes: Keep the big man no matter what camp.

 

What saddens me most though, guys, is that every other set of supporters predicted we'd be like this, and by this time.  We're utterly pathetic.  Sometimes I wish we still had Shepherd, then perhaps the insane levels of expectations may never have arrived.

 

I know a lot of people who have no interest in Newcastle who think he's been found out and can't hack it away from Bolton.  They expected him to do well but now think he can't.

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

 

It's one thing to have your initial expectations wiped out, it's quite another to be seriously calling for the guy's head after so little time (not directed at you).  Christ, we gave f****** Roeder and Souness longer, two horrific managers, with absolutely nothing in their history to suggest they'd ever get it right, but Allardyce has.

 

Allardyce hasn't turned out to be as great as I thought either, but then maybe I am (we, all of us) just expecting too much too soon.  Obviously performances like the last two simply are not on, but we really do need to get a grip of ourselves as a set of supporters.  Let's remember Mick, it's not only managers we chase out of town at the first sign of trouble, we do it with players too.  It's a deep-rooted problem we have, and sadly I don't think it's something that can really be 'fixed', perhaps just something that success will finally drive away. 

 

He has implemented a lot of off-field 'stuff' (couldn't really tell you what mind ), which I am more than sure will have an effect on our team in the long-term, I highly doubt we've seen the benefits of that.  I, for one, would like to though, and not see him sacked before anything he's tried to do here actually has a chance to work.  Managers get team selections wrong all the time, managers look like they've 'finally lost it' all the time too, the real point is, good managers learn from their mistakes and hopefully Allardyce is one of them.  Time is the only thing that will allow us to find out though, otherwise all hail Paul Jewell, Newcastle's next saviour...

 

Cause we ain't getting anyone better, not after our recent past.  New owners or not, it's the fans that make the decisions round here.

it's not just the last two though is it ? derby,sunderland,reading,boro,even citeh,coupled with liverpool and pompey is over half the games.

 

i'm not advocating an outright sacking just yet but IF we have good money at our disposal (not necissarily ashleys as with the debt paid off those prior debt repayments which wewre club generated could now be used on team strengthening ) then we will be a very good looking opportunity for quality managers.

 

I never said it was 'just' the last two though, what I mean was they were simply not on.  The bottom of the barrel stuff.  The other games, whilst poor, disappointing, demoralising, well, they happen over the course of a season.  Not many teams go all season playing great, and not many managers get their teams playing the way they actually want them to within such a short time.  All teams have bad patches.

 

I know if this exact post had been used for Souness or Roeder, I'd have pissed myself laughing at it, but the fact is Allardyce has a record of building teams.  That record is enough for me to keep faith in him and expect a season of progression.  The season's not even over, yet we have people acting like we've just finished it, and finished it just above the relegation zone.

what pisses me off most is when allardyce came i thought at least we'd be organised and tough to beat,it can be done with moderate players. instead he is activly making us weaker week in and week out.

 

if we are at the end of the season and looking back on these games i've mentioned and that is it as bad as it got then it may not be too bad,but i can only see it continuing.

 

can you understand why he has played the line-up's,formations and tactics he has ?

[NE5]

N'zogbia was totally and utterly fucking useless yesterday and didn't look like he was going to get any better as the game wore on. In fact, he was getting worse.. How anybody can object to subbing him is beyond me.

 

I think Wullie is right mate. Opening the game out would have gave him more opportunity. As things were, he was surrounded by 2 men all the time, they knew he was our only major threat from wide positions.

 

 

[madras]

N'zogbia was totally and utterly f****** useless yesterday and didn't look like he was going to get any better as the game wore on. In fact, he was getting worse.. How anybody can object to subbing him is beyond me.

 

I think Wullie is right mate. Opening the game out would have gave him more opportunity. As things were, he was surrounded by 2 men all the time, they knew he was our only major threat from wide positions.

 

 

i'm agreeing with NE5 and wullie.

 

allardyce has sooooooooo much to answer for.

[Optimistic Nut]

Taking N'Zogbia off left 3 central midfielders and a right-sided one. The right-sided one then played on the left. N'Zogbia was poor yesterday but I put that down to the formation as much as anything and everyone, just about, was poor in any case. When Allardyce did change things to a more conventional 4-4-2 he didn't give N'Zogbia enough of a chance to make an impact in his favoured position imo. Taking the young un off was the 'easy option' though rather than biting the bullet and replacing one of the central midfielders.

 

At a push he could have even taken off Viduka, put Smith up-front and simply put Milner on the right. N'Zogbia coming off was a joke.

 

Why is taking one of the worst performers on the pitch off a joke?

 

Or are you basing your judgement on previous performances? Fair enough if you are but then i'd expect you to take account of the manager's previous record in assessing him too (which you may do, i havent checked, that could sound unfair so sorry)?

 

That last bit was just in case anyone doesnt want to take account of the manager's previous record but also thought the decision to take Zog off was worth a boo. And because i'm a fan of logical thought.

 

That was based on the fact that when you're looking for a goal, how is bringing off your one natural left-winger off for a right-winger (who should have started anyway), and going with Barton on the right and Smith in the centre going to change things?