Tooj Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 How was Stam sold at the right time? Who said that like? Apisith I really should read. Stam proved to be top class for years after Fergie sold him. After McGrath and Adams, best I've seen over here in that position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 How was Stam sold at the right time? Who said that like? Apisith I really should read. Stam proved to be top class for years after Fergie sold him. After McGrath and Adams, best I've seen over here in that position. They could have had an awesome partnership at the back as I think it was the season after that Ferdinand went there. I think they were left with Ronny Johnson and Silvestre after he left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrette Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I don't think its as simple as being better than the other, there is a lot more to it than that. If I had to go for one... probably Wenger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Villa fans will say he was right to ditch McGrath like. And more importantly so will Man Utd fans more than likely and where Fergie and whether he was right or wrong in your eyes to peddle him or not is concerned, they and their club (not Villa and Villa fans or you) are all that matters really. In short you don't have a right to claim he was wrong to sell him or that it was a mistake. Reading his biography and falling in love with him based on Youtube clips doesn't entitle you to such a matter of fact opinion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Stam came out and virtually accused Ferguson of tapping him up in a book though didn't he? He wasn't really sold for footballing reasons (ie. a dip in form), as opposed to, say, Kanchelskis and Ince. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Regardless of how well the likes of Stam did after Manyoo, the fact is that you only leave Manyoo if Fergie wants you to leave. Something that has never been the case at Wenger's Arsenal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Is there any youtube clips of Paul McGrath might I ask? I remember McGrath as a kid man, thought he was absolutely awesome. Left a lasting impression on me. Is that not good enough like? Going by that basis as well then I never actually seen any of our players first time around when KK was manager and only fell in love with them over youtube clips. A bit like you HTT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Is there any youtube clips of Paul McGrath might I ask? I remember McGrath as a kid man, thought he was absolutely awesome. Left a lasting impression on me. Is that not good enough like? Going by that basis as well then I never actually seen any of our players first time around when KK was manager and only fell in love with them over youtube clips. A bit like you HTT. I can talk like, for your McGrath, I'll raise you Hughie Gallacher... At least you had Youtube Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Is there any youtube clips of Paul McGrath might I ask? I remember McGrath as a kid man, thought he was absolutely awesome. Left a lasting impression on me. Is that not good enough like? Going by that basis as well then I never actually seen any of our players first time around when KK was manager and only fell in love with them over youtube clips. A bit like you HTT. I can talk like, for your McGrath, I'll raise you Hughie Gallacher... At least you had Youtube Did you not have any favourite players from other teams when growing up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Regardless of how well the likes of Stam did after Manyoo, the fact is that you only leave Manyoo if Fergie wants you to leave. Something that has never been the case at Wenger's Arsenal. Wenger has clearly proven he knows when to get rid of players at the right time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Fergie got £17m for a 29 (iirc) year old player who went on to be found guilty of doping soon after. I'd say that was a good sale. They're both equal in terms of the qualities dcmk listed. I only rate Wenger higher because of the football Arsenal play and because of his work in the transfer market. The other things such as 'instilling belief in the team' is something I'd actually give Fergie more credit. You need to instill a whole lot of belief in your team to win 8 (?) league titles in a span of 12 or so years, and of course the year they won the treble was historic (literally). Wenger has the invincible season to his name and the two doubles as well, which is why I've said that they're near equals. Edit - I feel dirty for having to defend Fergie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Is there any youtube clips of Paul McGrath might I ask? I remember McGrath as a kid man, thought he was absolutely awesome. Left a lasting impression on me. Is that not good enough like? Going by that basis as well then I never actually seen any of our players first time around when KK was manager and only fell in love with them over youtube clips. A bit like you HTT. I can talk like, for your McGrath, I'll raise you Hughie Gallacher... At least you had Youtube Did you not have any favourite players from other teams when growing up? Aye, and thankfully they both ended up here. Sir Les and Shearer. I was a massive Andy Cole fan and me and mates, mates who knew more about football than me as they'd grew up following football and I hadn't, would tell me, despite being Toon fans themselves, that those two were better all-rounders than Cole. I knew it myself eventually but didn't want to admit it. Anyway I watched those two a lot as a result, naturally I was over the moon when we signed them. I loved to watch Le Tissier too, another player I was a fan of. I was also a fan of Kinkladze, Juninho, Collymore, Fowler and many others. Not massively so though. Cole was my hero, no-one could touch him. Even today Cole is still a legend in my eyes. He has always had a warm reception from me, even as a Man Utd player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 It's just sinking in, 37 bloody trophies. Most managers go through their careers not winning anything. 10 would put you up in the elite. I'd be pretty sure that the number two would be Bob Paisley, with 19 ie half that number. I've got a nerdy desire to compile the top 10 when I've got time. That's unless someone beats me to it. I don’t get the impression you’ve all been waiting with bated breath for this, but this is a top 12 of post-war managers in England, in terms of trophies won. Putting in Scottish trophies made things a bit complicated and distorted, especially considering I’d have had to include Souness. Missing out his Aberdeen achievements is to Ferguson’s cost, of course. I’ve also missed out one-off games like the Community Shield and the European Super Cup. To make it a bit fairer, it’s two points for winning the League or the European Cup, 1 point for any other trophy. Actual trophy numbers in brackets, and used as tie-breaker. Some of these names will mean more to us crinklies. I don’t think I’ve missed anyone. Pts Tro. 1. Alex Ferguson 28 (18) 2. Bob Paisley 22 (13) 3. Matt Busby 14 (8) 4. Brian Clough 12 (8) 5. Arsene Wenger 10 (7) 6. Kenny Dalglish 10 (6) 7. Bill Nicholson 9 (8) 8. George Graham 9 (7) 9. Bill Shankly 9 (6) 10. Don Revie 8 (6) 11. Stan Cullis 8 (5) 12. Jose Mourinho 7 (5) Interesting that Mourinho gets in there, after only three seasons, and you can make a strong case out for Cloughie, getting in at number 4 despite only managing Derby and Notts Forest - clubs he actually took up from the Second Division. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sima Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Arguing with Sima about Man United is about as useful as arguing with Martin Jol about Spurs. Wenger is currently the better manager. You think Lampard is better than Gerrard tbh Opinion void. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swissmag Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Zanetti's the best right-back of the past decade iyam. Cafu may be a tad more dynamic, but Zanetti overall is a class act. Not saying Cafu wasn't in his pomp btw. absolutely agree. Zanetti is the man... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 People are assessing this all wrong. The thread didn't ask which manager is better at winning trophies, just who is the better manager. Myself, based on managerial and coaching qualities, then I'd say Wenger. Is Gary Neville a better player than Shearer btw? Surely when you look at two managers managing two of the best and biggest clubs in England then trophies is the only objective way of assessing who is best. It's obviously different for players. Is Souness a better manager than Keegan? One has bags of trophies, one has none. That's a different thing though. I was as specifc as I could be and yet you still seem to have missed my point about the comparison between Wenger and Ferguson (i.e. trophies are the only objective way to assess which of those two are best). There are loads of mitigating factors which point to KK being better than Souness imo despite the latter winning things. I didn't miss your point, I know what you mean. I just disagree with it or rather the whole counting trophies won to prove point when assessing a manager and indeed a player, hence my questions who is better KK or Souness, Neville or Shearer. Maybe because Wenger and Fergie are perhaps evenly matched, trophies won is the only way to decide, I concede that and fair enough. Don't agree with it though. Like I said though, it's the only objective way of looking at it. I don't even know why you're bringing players into it though, it's totally different and a complete red herring (as it the Keegan - Souness comparison imo). I actually prefer Wenger although I'm not one of these people who hates Ferguson, although I did when we were serious rivals to Man Utd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I used to despise Fergie too, but I've grown to respect him. If anything, Wenger gets on my nerves more! Not that I've been thinking about them much recently, much more concerned with Megson, Coppell and Bruce... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BONTEMPI Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I used to despise Fergie too, but I've grown to respect him. If anything, Wenger gets on my nerves more! Not that I've been thinking about them much recently, much more concerned with Megson, Coppell and Bruce... How can you respect a cunt like that? He stands for everything I hate about the game right now! Can't wait until he fucks off, then see the rats desert the sinking ship. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest float one in Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 If I was bothered about this country anymore I would say it is a disgrace that Taggart got a knighthood. He's been the best manager for about 20 years, but he's also continually brought the game into disrepute. Everyone dislikes the team thats winning all the time, that happens in every league in the world, but for a long time there was a special hatred of Man U that was in large part due to his all round horribleness (don't know if there still is, as I reckon Mourinho's graceless antics and Wenger's sourness might have dissipated it a canny bit over the last few years). I remember winning a prize for being 'most improved pupil' (!) or some rubbish like that at school in about '95 (after I had decided to stop being a little rogue!) and I spent the book token on Fergie's first 'Manager's Diary'. It was an absolutely brilliant read, cos that was the year we sold them Cole and Cantona kicked that bloke at Selhurst Park, and reading his side of everything did make him seem a bit more human as well as making you realise that he ran absolutely everything in the whole football club, and didn't merely take care of the first team. You've got to have some respect for his astonishing achievements at Man U, but I would have a lot more if he seemed a bit more of a decent bloke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmk Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 It's just sinking in, 37 bloody trophies. Most managers go through their careers not winning anything. 10 would put you up in the elite. I'd be pretty sure that the number two would be Bob Paisley, with 19 ie half that number. I've got a nerdy desire to compile the top 10 when I've got time. That's unless someone beats me to it. I don’t get the impression you’ve all been waiting with bated breath for this, but this is a top 12 of post-war managers in England, in terms of trophies won. Putting in Scottish trophies made things a bit complicated and distorted, especially considering I’d have had to include Souness. Missing out his Aberdeen achievements is to Ferguson’s cost, of course. I’ve also missed out one-off games like the Community Shield and the European Super Cup. To make it a bit fairer, it’s two points for winning the League or the European Cup, 1 point for any other trophy. Actual trophy numbers in brackets, and used as tie-breaker. Some of these names will mean more to us crinklies. I don’t think I’ve missed anyone. Pts Tro. 1. Alex Ferguson 28 (18) 2. Bob Paisley 22 (13) 3. Matt Busby 14 (8) 4. Brian Clough 12 (8) 5. Arsene Wenger 10 (7) 6. Kenny Dalglish 10 (6) 7. Bill Nicholson 9 (8) 8. George Graham 9 (7) 9. Bill Shankly 9 (6) 10. Don Revie 8 (6) 11. Stan Cullis 8 (5) 12. Jose Mourinho 7 (5) Interesting that Mourinho gets in there, after only three seasons, and you can make a strong case out for Cloughie, getting in at number 4 despite only managing Derby and Notts Forest - clubs he actually took up from the Second Division. Ferguson's achievements with Aberdeen were fantastic and on a par with his achievements at Manu so if it was just about comparing Fergie and Wenger then I would look at those too but your list is a fair comparison in terms of what has been achieved in the English game. Says a lot about Mourinho for him to enter that list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowen Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Ferguson runs a football club like no other, he beats anyone hands down at that. However Wenger is a better players manager and coach, his teams are better, his football is better and he gets more out of players in every aspect than Fergie who relies heavily on Man Utd's brand name and money to buy players to fit his philosophies where as Wenger actually makes them, not buys them, so to speak. They are both great however and any differences are marginal. I just prefer Wenger myself as he's a more rounded manager/coach than Fergie is. I'd disagree strongly with that. Whilst "his football is better" is only an opinion, obviously, I don't think his teams are better at all. They don't win things as often. The classic Arsenal are amazing to watch line gets bandied around a lot, and whilst they are exceptional I actually find their refusal to shoot quite frustrating to watch at times. The dynamisn and explosiveness of ManU is more exciting for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I used to despise Fergie too, but I've grown to respect him. If anything, Wenger gets on my nerves more! Not that I've been thinking about them much recently, much more concerned with Megson, Coppell and Bruce... How can you respect a cunt like that? He stands for everything I hate about the game right now! Can't wait until he fucks off, then see the rats desert the sinking ship. I don't lilke him much as a person either, but you can't argue with what he's acheived. And if Man Utd do decline when he retires, that will only prove how pivotal he was to their success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowen Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I used to despise Fergie too, but I've grown to respect him. If anything, Wenger gets on my nerves more! Not that I've been thinking about them much recently, much more concerned with Megson, Coppell and Bruce... How can you respect a cunt like that? He stands for everything I hate about the game right now! Can't wait until he fucks off, then see the rats desert the sinking ship. What do you mean by that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest johnnyappleseed Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 if newcastle had their choice of the two in 96 (obviously at the time they would take fergie), based on how they both operate who do you think would have achieved more at newcastle? i see newcastle being similar to arsenal if wenger had the job since '96. i don't see newcastle having the money to throw around to be like united though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sima Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 if newcastle had their choice of the two in 96 (obviously at the time they would take fergie), based on how they both operate who do you think would have achieved more at newcastle? i see newcastle being similar to arsenal if wenger had the job since '96. i don't see newcastle having the money to throw around to be like united though. Eh? Were were spending just as much if not more than Man Utd around 1996 so not sure you can say that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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