If Martins is again dropped for the next match...

[mrmojorisin75]

So wait a minute.

 

Michael Laudrup for example, would you say he was instinctive as a player? As to me he's possibly the most intelligent footballer I've ever seen. On the pitch of course, as I'm not sure of his Geography abilities off it.

 

true, i heard he's not got a scooby regarding precipitation the useless get

 

laudrup (and many others) are of course intelligent footballers given the way we use that term, but think about it on the pitch; it's not like he gets the ball then freezes time, gets his notebook out and works out the best thing to do with the ball is it?

 

he gets it and in a split second he's done whatever he's gonna do...this is what i'm saying, it's instinct in that respect, laudrup had the instincts (married with the ability) to be a great player by seeing what was happening on the pitch in a different, faster, better way than his peers

 

you can't call that intelligence, you simply can't, it's just a term bandied about

 

i've done it myself on the pitch...either had the instinct and not the ability or vice versa, all i'm trying to say is intelligent isn't the best word to describe players, makes no sense

[Guest alex]

I don't understand what points are being made here. Owen is an intelligent footballer, Martins isn't. That's not me saying Owen is a better player because I don't think he is anymore. Owen is low on confidence though. I'd also agree Martins is a confidence player. That doesn't mean he'll develop the ability to make clever runs etc. when his confidence is high.

 

You ask Goalfather to explain why he thinks Martin's goals are indicative of footballing intelligence. Would you return the favour and explain why you think they, or is general play, aren't? Again, I'm not suggesting he's on par with Rooney or Fabregas when it comes to vision etc, but to claim he has NO football brain is a bit of an overstatement if you ask me..

His allround play isn't what I would define as 'intelligent'. His runs, movement, etc. And a lot of his goals seem to be instinctive ones. It isn't a criticism of him as a player as such. It's me attempting to debunk the notion he is an intelligent player.

 

Which is fair enough, everybody is entitled to their opinion. You have also said however he is not the answer for us in the long term, suggesting he is not good enough (and doesn't have the potential to become good enough) for a top Premiership side. Is there a causal effect between the two, i.e. will it be his lack of football intelligence you claim he has that will prevent him from making the step up? Because if so, I can think of a couple of top class strikers who are more instincive than thinkers of the game or players with great vision and awareness. At the end of the day, a striker needs to put the ball away, and I have no doubt in my mind he has the ability and potential to be a 20 goal a season striker in time. Not saying it's a certainty he will be, but you are claiming it's a certainty he won't. Would be interested in knowing why..

Well, for me it's his poor movement and his poor first touch as much as anything. I can understand the argument about his potential etc. and I'm not saying it's a certainty he won't be good enough long-term, it's just my opinion. I don't really want to go into it too much purely because it's been done too many times before. I do think that he should be starting for us, as I've already said and I think, in an ideal world, i.e. us being a top 6 side again with good players in the team etc. he'd be a very good option to bring off the bench as he's perfect as an 'impact player' if you like (pace, unpredictability, etc. ). You're making it sound like I'm totally slating him, which I'm not.

[Guest alex]

So wait a minute.

 

Michael Laudrup for example, would you say he was instinctive as a player? As to me he's possibly the most intelligent footballer I've ever seen. On the pitch of course, as I'm not sure of his Geography abilities off it.

 

true, i heard he's not got a scooby regarding precipitation the useless get

 

laudrup (and many others) are of course intelligent footballers given the way we use that term, but think about it on the pitch; it's not like he gets the ball then freezes time, gets his notebook out and works out the best thing to do with the ball is it?

 

he gets it and in a split second he's done whatever he's gonna do...this is what i'm saying, it's instinct in that respect, laudrup had the instincts (married with the ability) to be a great player by seeing what was happening on the pitch in a different, faster, better way than his peers

 

you can't call that intelligence, you simply can't, it's just a term bandied about

 

i've done it myself on the pitch...either had the instinct and not the ability or vice versa, all i'm trying to say is intelligent isn't the best word to describe players, makes no sense

If you want it properly defined in the sense of footballer having a 'football brain' or being 'intelligent' or whatever, what it is for me is the ability to make decisions when you have time to think about things. That can manifest itself as taking up good positions, either where the ball is likely to go if you're a defender or finding space when your team is in possession. It's also about making runs (in an attacking sense), picking the right passing option and so on and so on. You look at someone like Martins and he is more instintive as a player because he's actually better when he doesn't have time to think about things imo.

[Thespence]

One mans instinct is another mans intelligence

[S.S.R.]

Innate ≠ Learned

[Tooj]

In the words of John Lennon, happiness is a warm gun.

[KaKa]

More good points KaKa. I've been a critic of Martins in the past, more out of frustration than anything, but I've always maintained that I hoped he would prove me wrong.

 

I'm just trying to show that there is a balance to this whole thing. Athletic ability and footballing intelligence are both important. I think a player who has top class athleticism and maybe not as much footballing intelligence is still as valuable as one who has a top class footballing brain but lacks athleticism.

 

At the end of the day it's not as if Martins has zero intelligence or he wouldn't even be able to get into some of the areas he does to score. Equally it's not as though Owen has zero athleticism either, or he wouldn't score some of those leaping headers which he does.

 

It's all about what you surround different types of players with and what else you do to get the most out of them.

 

The idea that Martins will never be good enough because he is so unintelligent really irks me.

[S.S.R.]

In the words of John Lennon, happiness is a warm gun.

 

Imagine there's no Smith, it's easy if you try.

 

Number 9, number 9, number 9, number 9...

[Colocho]

When Martins starts you hear voices in crowd at SJP whinge a bit as his Shola like touch, his failure to look up,his into the crowd shooting piss people off. When Martins is on the bench same people sing his name as he offers pace, has bit of individual magic about him & has a bullet like shot.

 

I would play him as he does shoot & has a bit of pace but we are never going to go far with him as our number 9.

 

Martins kept us up last season.

 

Keegan isn't.

[Thespence]

When Martins starts you hear voices in crowd at SJP whinge a bit as his Shola like touch, his failure to look up,his into the crowd shooting piss people off. When Martins is on the bench same people sing his name as he offers pace, has bit of individual magic about him & has a bullet like shot.

 

I would play him as he does shoot & has a bit of pace but we are never going to go far with him as our number 9.

 

Martins kept us up last season.

 

As goals win matches & him being a striker he is in a postion to shape a clubs season.

[NE5]

Martins should be playing like. There's no way he's the answer long-term though, no way in the world.

 

agreed

 

 

[ElDiablo]

Martins should be playing like. There's no way he's the answer long-term though, no way in the world.

 

agreed

 

Agree, he's a good outlet that can stretch the defence of other teams. Should look to upgrade though if we stay up.

[Unbelievable]

Martins should be playing like. There's no way he's the answer long-term though, no way in the world.

 

agreed

 

Agree, he's a good outlet that can stretch the defence of other teams. Should look to upgrade though if we stay up.

 

Although I don´t disagree per se I can think of about 8 positions where we should look to upgrade before we think about upgrading on Martins. We´d be better off looking for someone to play alongside him and to his strengths rather than upgrade on himself in the short run..

[NE5]

Martins should be playing like. There's no way he's the answer long-term though, no way in the world.

 

agreed

 

Agree, he's a good outlet that can stretch the defence of other teams. Should look to upgrade though if we stay up.

 

Although I don´t disagree per se I can think of about 8 positions where we should look to upgrade before we think about upgrading on Martins. We´d be better off looking for someone to play alongside him and to his strengths rather than upgrade on himself in the short run..

 

his goals kept us up last year, and hopefully will this time too [although I don't care who gets the goals] but we can't buy a goal or a win just now.

 

He's got value, he isn't going to be top of the list to get rid of by any stretch, but I think keegan will identify him at the right time as a player where he would replace with a more controlled footballer

 

Assuming Keegan stays of course.

 

 

 

[Kev]

Martins should be playing like. There's no way he's the answer long-term though, no way in the world.

can you tell me why?

we are a BOTTOM 10 club, whether we like it or not, i dont see us as a top 10 club, we have been on the border for 2 years and now we are finally classed as a bottom 10 club imo

[Thespence]

Martins should be playing like. There's no way he's the answer long-term though, no way in the world.

can you tell me why?

we are a BOTTOM 10 club, whether we like it or not, i dont see us as a top 10 club, we have been on the border for 2 years and now we are finally classed as a bottom 10 club imo

 

We were in the bottom 10 last year.

[Guest MaetihS]

Martins is good enough for a club like us in fact he is good enough too for a top ten club. To those deluded ones, we should be glad that we have a player of his calibre considering the status of our club, a bottom 10 club.

[Thespence]

Martins is good enough for a club like us in fact he is good enough too for a top ten club. To those deluded ones, we should be glad that we have a player of his calibre considering the status of our club, a bottom 10 club.

 

If any club really wanted him they could of got him. He owes us everything he went from a squad  player at Inter to wearing the symbolic shirt at Newcastle United & for the first time in his career  he was a recognised starter.

[Guest iliketoonarmy]

So wait a minute.

 

Michael Laudrup for example, would you say he was instinctive as a player? As to me he's possibly the most intelligent footballer I've ever seen. On the pitch of course, as I'm not sure of his Geography abilities off it.

 

true, i heard he's not got a scooby regarding precipitation the useless get

 

laudrup (and many others) are of course intelligent footballers given the way we use that term, but think about it on the pitch; it's not like he gets the ball then freezes time, gets his notebook out and works out the best thing to do with the ball is it?

 

he gets it and in a split second he's done whatever he's gonna do...this is what i'm saying, it's instinct in that respect, laudrup had the instincts (married with the ability) to be a great player by seeing what was happening on the pitch in a different, faster, better way than his peers

 

you can't call that intelligence, you simply can't, it's just a term bandied about

 

i've done it myself on the pitch...either had the instinct and not the ability or vice versa, all i'm trying to say is intelligent isn't the best word to describe players, makes no sense

If you want it properly defined in the sense of footballer having a 'football brain' or being 'intelligent' or whatever, what it is for me is the ability to make decisions when you have time to think about things. That can manifest itself as taking up good positions, either where the ball is likely to go if you're a defender or finding space when your team is in possession. It's also about making runs (in an attacking sense), picking the right passing option and so on and so on. You look at someone like Martins and he is more instintive as a player because he's actually better when he doesn't have time to think about things imo.

 

confidence blah blah blah blah is not the factor.

scoring and winning is,

and Martins can do that.

 

end of story.

[Shak]

Martins should be playing like. There's no way he's the answer long-term though, no way in the world.

can you tell me why?

we are a BOTTOM 10 club, whether we like it or not, i dont see us as a top 10 club, we have been on the border for 2 years and now we are finally classed as a bottom 10 club imo

 

Alex said "long-term" though, and I assume the plan for us long-term is not to be a bottom 10 club.

 

I don't think anyone would dispute that he's our best option now, in this relegation fight we are in, but the point is that Martins may not be solution long-term if we're going to try and build a team capable of challenging for the Top 4, which must be the goal.

 

Personally, I feel that there's a place for Martins in a Top 4 squad. With intelligent, playmaking footballers around him I think Martins could be very useful, both starting and from the bench. If nothing else, he's a fine player to throw on when you're chasing a game and in need of a goal, given his ability to create things from nowhere.

[Shak]

Martins is good enough for a club like us in fact he is good enough too for a top ten club. To those deluded ones, we should be glad that we have a player of his calibre considering the status of our club, a bottom 10 club.

 

If any club really wanted him they could of got him. He owes us everything he went from a squad  player at Inter to wearing the symbolic shirt at Newcastle United & for the first time in his career  he was a recognised starter.

 

I think you drastically overestimate the prestige of the Newcastle #9 shirt outside the Tyneside area, to be honest.

 

He probably regrets leaving Inter, where he'd be winning medals and would probably get a few games for them, or be a frequently used sub at the very least, given the desperate lack of pace in their team.

[Guest MaetihS]

He was a recognised starter last season and for some reason, he is not this season but still our top scorer. Anyone who thinks we can get better strikers than him are deluded, yes i do not think Ashton is better and is vastly overrated. With a better team around him (yes last season was a better team in terms of confidence and creativity...how i miss Dyer and Solano), he will shine.

[Guest MaetihS]

Owen should be dropped. Both Martins and Owen thrive on playing with a big target man and I choose Martins cos he is not easy to defend against unlike Owen too predictable. Shola/Carrol/Viduka and Martins for me....Martins was good last season cos he plays alongside a big target man like Sib or Shola.

[LoveItIfWeBeatU]

Why are people arguing? The question asked was more or less, do you want Martins to start before Smith? If we go down you won't need to worry about what you may see as Martins' minus points, he'll be gone and we'll have Championship quality strikers up front. Who gives you more hope of scoring the goals that may keep us in the premiership? Martins or Smith?

[Thespence]

I think you drastically overestimate the prestige of the Newcastle #9 shirt outside the Tyneside area, to be honest.

 

He probably regrets leaving Inter, where he'd be winning medals and would probably get a few games for them, or be a frequently used sub at the very least, given the desperate lack of pace in their team.

 

No I am not, I talking from a purely Tyneside perspective. I would of given the shirt a few years off to be honest.

 

I doubt he has regrets I would imagine his wages here are lot better. Inter have so many strikers they can afford to let Adriano go & sort his head out in Brazil. They also have a very effective super sub in Cruz