England

[Guest quklaani]

You have slayed me with your stunning counterargument.  Truly it was loaded with reasoned points, incisive logic and even, if I may say so, a certain acerbic wit.  Clearly, Wes Brown is f***ing awful at this football lark, thank you for enlightening me.

[Cronky]

Harry Redknapp in the studio.

 

Great television.

 

McManaman is the only one that's making sense - the manager is making too many changes, from game to game as well as during the game. The players don't have a chance.

 

Redknapp and Venables are just burbling.

[S.S.R.]

You have slayed me with your stunning counterargument.  Truly it was loaded with reasoned points, incisive logic and even, if I may say so, a certain acerbic wit.  Clearly, Wes Brown is f***ing awful at this football lark, thank you for enlightening me.

 

Yawn.

[Ericz]

I have watched the entire match and my feeling is that England has been very disappointing.

 

Defense

 

Stagnant (Perhaps, there's no Carvalho or Vidic) and many mistakes.

 

I didn't think any of the starting back 4 today were particularly impressive. They each have their fair share of mistakes. Sure, Wes Brown pushed forward and even managed to score a goal however, he has lost many balls to the Czechs and some of his deliveries were pretty bad.

 

Midfield

 

No creativity, no penetration, passing = fails, technical abilities in holding the ball = fails

 

Lampard seems very lost today. Gerard seems to be average (still better than most players though).

 

Striker

 

Not clinical at all.

 

Rooney is hardworking no doubt but his positioning does not give me the impression that he is likely to score any goals. Defoe always look the one more likely to get the goals but his shooting isn't clinical.

 

 

 

Other comments

 

Somehow, the (ex) Manchester United players does not seem to linked well with the Liverpool and Chelsea players. I am not sure whether is it down to not playing together often (not having a good understanding) or is it their passing abilities are really bad. For all intent and purposes, you look at Spain, Portugal, even the Czechs, the ball actually reaches their players most of the time, especially the crucial ones.

 

I like the performance of some of the substitutes, namely

 

Woodgate - I have the impression that Woodgate might be a better center half for England than Terry or Ferdinand (needs more time to assess though). He is a very classy defender.

Downing - I think he brings penetration and creativity to a squad badly lacking in them, especially on the left side of midfield.

Joe Cole - Glimpses of creativity and daring to push forward. Better passing ability.

Heskey - I think he definitely brings another dimension to the game. I think his game play is smarter than Rooney to be honest. What Rooney has over him is perhaps youth, raw pace and more energy.

 

Last but not least, Beckham played better than Lampard I feel. Beckham does merit his place in today's starting lineup. I thought he was one of the better performers for the starting 11. He tracks back alot, get several interceptions in and several successful tackles in... throughout the whole game, the only way I can see England scoring is through Beckham's deliveries or set-piece. Yes, the creativity & penetration of England is that bad!

 

Defensively, they are not up to it... Offensively, they are not up to it too. They are not very convincing in short.

[Guest quklaani]

So, in conclusion S.S.R, your arguments in favour of your suggestion that Wes Brown is a rubbish football are.

 

A: John O'shea gets on the bench, he is fat, lol.

 

B: Everyone here will dislike you because you're a Mancunian.  Clearly this means you are wrong.

 

C: "Yawn."

 

You know it was a fairly simple request that you actually explain your opinion, but if you don't want to then thats fair enough.

[cubaricho]

Woodgate - I have the impression that Woodgate might be a better center half for England than Terry or Ferdinand (needs more time to assess though). He is a very classy defender.

Downing - I think he brings penetration and creativity to a squad badly lacking in them, especially on the left side of midfield.

Joe Cole - Glimpses of creativity and daring to push forward. Better passing ability.

Heskey - I think he definitely brings another dimension to the game. I think his game play is smarter than Rooney to be honest. What Rooney has over him is perhaps youth, raw pace and more energy.

 

Bold statements but I also tend to agree with them.

 

They may not be the flashiest names on the team sheet but as a team they may work the best.

[S.S.R.]

So, in conclusion S.S.R, your arguments in favour of your suggestion that Wes Brown is a rubbish football are.

 

He'd be a great football. His bright orange head would be visible in the winter months.

[Guest quklaani]

Just so I actually make an on-topic post, heres some England related chatter.  I didnt watch the game, don't support England, but I am still "interested."  Anyway, based purely on club form and my own views, heres how I think England should line up:

 

 

            James/Foster

 

Brown* Ferdinand Woodgate Cole

 

        Carrick Hargreaves/Barry**

 

                    Lampard

 

Cole/Agbonlahor                    Young/Seriously, why are there no english wingers?

 

                        Owen/Rooney***

 

*Until a genuine fullback appears.

 

**Ideally Gerrard, but I think its too late for him to live up to his talent.

 

***Depending on how they want to play.  Rooney is england's best player but if you can't get him to work you can't get him to work.

 

I'd suggest that they, y'know, play football instead of hoofball.  Its really not that hard if you train to do it.

[James]

Awesome sig SSR

[Cronky]

Just so I actually make an on-topic post, heres some England related chatter.  I didnt watch the game, don't support England, but I am still "interested."  Anyway, based purely on club form and my own views, heres how I think England should line up:

 

 

            James/Foster

 

Brown* Ferdinand Woodgate Cole

 

         Carrick Hargreaves/Barry**

 

                     Lampard

 

Cole/Agbonlahor                    Young/Seriously, why are there no english wingers?

 

                        Owen/Rooney***

 

*Until a genuine fullback appears.

 

**Ideally Gerrard, but I think its too late for him to live up to his talent.

 

***Depending on how they want to play.  Rooney is england's best player but if you can't get him to work you can't get him to work.

 

I'd suggest that they, y'know, play football instead of hoofball.  Its really not that hard if you train to do it.

 

You've picked 15 players. Seriously, being England manager is about making decisions.

 

I think you're dead wrong about Gerrard. At international level, you don't have things your own way, and players need to impose themselves. That's what Gerrard did tonight, and Lampard conspicuously didn't.

 

Brown is a good player, but not international class at full back. He's clearly no more comfortable going forward with the ball than the average centre back.

[Guest kingdawson]

-------------------------------------James---------------------------

 

Richards-------Woodgate/terry---------Ferdinand-------Cole

 

---------------------------Hargreaves---Carrick------------------

 

-----------------Bentley-----------Gerrard--------J.cole------------

 

-------------------------------------Rooney----------------------------

[Guest quklaani]

Just so I actually make an on-topic post, heres some England related chatter.  I didnt watch the game, don't support England, but I am still "interested."  Anyway, based purely on club form and my own views, heres how I think England should line up:

 

 

            James/Foster

 

Brown* Ferdinand Woodgate Cole

 

        Carrick Hargreaves/Barry**

 

                    Lampard

 

Cole/Agbonlahor                    Young/Seriously, why are there no english wingers?

 

                        Owen/Rooney***

 

*Until a genuine fullback appears.

 

**Ideally Gerrard, but I think its too late for him to live up to his talent.

 

***Depending on how they want to play.  Rooney is england's best player but if you can't get him to work you can't get him to work.

 

I'd suggest that they, y'know, play football instead of hoofball.  Its really not that hard if you train to do it.

 

You've picked 15 players. Seriously, being England manager is about making decisions.

 

I think you're dead wrong about Gerrard. At international level, you don't have things your own way, and players need to impose themselves. That's what Gerrard did tonight, and Lampard conspicuously didn't.

 

Brown is a good player, but not international class at full back. He's clearly no more comfortable going forward with the ball than the average centre back.

 

Heh, you know what I meant.  As for Wes, no, hes probably not.  But when it comes to England what does international class even mean?  There are about 8 teams in the league better than England, and Brown is probably the best english right back out of them.  With United his lack of attacking prowess (and hes not that bad, he can cross reasonably well these days, hes improved a lot) is rather offset by Evra on the other side acting like he's a winger most of the time.  It might on paper seem to make things unbalanced, but it works.  England don't have that option because its not how Cole plays.  What Im about to say is a bit ridiculous, but hear me out.  Its like, you've got your full backs, some of them are just glorified centre backs, like Wes, some are proper full backs, who can do both, like Ashley Cole, and some are mental little french feckers who go storming up the pitch every chance they get.  I'd argue you need a balance.  Either one of each, or two of the middle type.

 

Like I said, sounds a bit...odd, but you get what I mean.

[Cronky]

Just so I actually make an on-topic post, heres some England related chatter.  I didnt watch the game, don't support England, but I am still "interested."  Anyway, based purely on club form and my own views, heres how I think England should line up:

 

 

            James/Foster

 

Brown* Ferdinand Woodgate Cole

 

         Carrick Hargreaves/Barry**

 

                     Lampard

 

Cole/Agbonlahor                    Young/Seriously, why are there no english wingers?

 

                        Owen/Rooney***

 

*Until a genuine fullback appears.

 

**Ideally Gerrard, but I think its too late for him to live up to his talent.

 

***Depending on how they want to play.  Rooney is england's best player but if you can't get him to work you can't get him to work.

 

I'd suggest that they, y'know, play football instead of hoofball.  Its really not that hard if you train to do it.

 

You've picked 15 players. Seriously, being England manager is about making decisions.

 

I think you're dead wrong about Gerrard. At international level, you don't have things your own way, and players need to impose themselves. That's what Gerrard did tonight, and Lampard conspicuously didn't.

 

Brown is a good player, but not international class at full back. He's clearly no more comfortable going forward with the ball than the average centre back.

 

Heh, you know what I meant.  As for Wes, no, hes probably not.  But when it comes to England what does international class even mean?  There are about 8 teams in the league better than England, and Brown is probably the best english right back out of them.   With United his lack of attacking prowess (and hes not that bad, he can cross reasonably well these days, hes improved a lot) is rather offset by Evra on the other side acting like he's a winger most of the time.  It might on paper seem to make things unbalanced, but it works.  England don't have that option because its not how Cole plays.  What Im about to say is a bit ridiculous, but hear me out.  Its like, you've got your full backs, some of them are just glorified centre backs, like Wes, some are proper full backs, who can do both, like Ashley Cole, and some are mental little french feckers who go storming up the pitch every chance they get.  I'd argue you need a balance.  Either one of each, or two of the middle type.

 

Like I said, sounds a bit...odd, but you get what I mean.

 

Well I'd simply say that full back is a weak position for England at the moment. Cole is a bit limited at the top level, and Brown is only there because Neville has been injured and Richards has fallen from favour. Personally, I'd play Richards.

 

I wouldn't say the top eight teams are better than England, but the top four are. In fact, the top four would have probably won the European Championships if they'd had the chance. It's a problem for some of our players - and I've got Lampard in mind here - that when they play for England they're in a team that can't dominate the opposition in the way that their clubs can. Some players deal with that, others don't. Gerrard, Rooney, Joe Cole deal with it. Terry and Lampard struggle a bit.

[Guest nufc_geordie]

Woodgate - I have the impression that Woodgate might be a better center half for England than Terry or Ferdinand (needs more time to assess though). He is a very classy defender.

Downing - I think he brings penetration and creativity to a squad badly lacking in them, especially on the left side of midfield.

Joe Cole - Glimpses of creativity and daring to push forward. Better passing ability.

Heskey - I think he definitely brings another dimension to the game. I think his game play is smarter than Rooney to be honest. What Rooney has over him is perhaps youth, raw pace and more energy.

 

Bold statements but I also tend to agree with them.

 

They may not be the flashiest names on the team sheet but as a team they may work the best.

 

I agree with Woodgate, looks classier than all the other defenders. Would be interesting seeing him and Rio form a partnership and seeing howthat works out. Downing I would rather not play, but how he is in the squad and not Ashley Young I have no idea, and then Heskey.  Well he is arguably the best fit fol we have for a smaller striker. not fashionable, not highly thjought of but his work rate is unbelievable and unless Ashton gets fit or Crouch starts scoring goals, that's the best we have.

[1878]

I can't believe a 3rd  successive England manager is still trying to put Gerrard & Lampard in the same team

[Robster]

I can't believe a 3rd  successive England manager is still trying to put Gerrard & Lampard in the same team

 

Is it too much of a conspiracy theory to suggest that they are told they have to do it ?

[Cajun]

David James, good keeper but fucking mentalist

[Paully]

Am  the only 1 who thought the 2nd equaliser was offside when Terry knocked it forward?!

[KaKa]

England's uselessness is down to two people. Beckham and Gerrard.

 

For supposed "top class" midfielders they sure do love to play the wasteful crossfield long ball a hell of a lot, often onto the oppositions defenders heads.

 

I feel for Lampard and Barry. They try to play it short and move into space to receive the ball, but once Gerrard and Beckham got a hold of it, that was the end of any hopes of keeping the ball on the ground and playing a pass and move game.

 

I really was startled at how awful Gerrard and Beckham were. The odd screamer from Gerrard and the odd cross from Beckham cannot forgive such poor play and waste of the ball.

 

Beyond a shadow of a doubt the midfield should be Barry/Hargreaves with Lampard. Ashley Young and Joe Cole out wide. Will it ever happen under Capello though? Hell no.

 

 

[Mr Logic]

Awesome sig SSR

 

It's a bit special isn't it.

[Ronaldo]

If I may interject...

 

Brown isn't good enough for Newcastle, never mind England.

 

Good enough to start for the european champions though.  The stick Brown gets never ceases to amaze me.  Same with Rooney, both are great players for the best team around, yet apparently are s*** for England...think there might be a reason for that.

 

Then again, paradoxically I think Gerrard and Terry never really perform for England cause they're actually no way near as good as people think.  Biased I know, but I still think their comparitive club form backs me up.

 

A final word on England's best players being crap.  People whinge and whinge and whinge about Lampard and Gerrard together in a midfield.  How is it always Lampard's fault?  Why is it he, who is clearly not a centre mid and doesnt pretened to be, who should suffer to accomodate the most headless of all chickens?  If England want to make any progress Saint Steven should be dropped until he learns how to actually play in midfield, which will be never I'd guess.  Lampard should be allowed to play in his inimitable Lampardy way, with a pair of midfielders behind him who know how to defend.

 

I've noticed this place brings out the rants in me, I'm not sure why.

 

with you on all of that tbh, Lampard has rarely being used correctly by England, ffs playing Gerrard in FRONT of him a few times 

[Guest Dev]

Do people give England much of a chance of even qualifying for the next couple of WCs?

 

I think it could be a genuine struggle. Maybe scrape into 2010, but after that I have my doubts.

[Kev]

i didnt know they were playing until 20:30 tonight  hate watching england, boring as fuck. dont care if its my country or not.

[polpolpol]

3 points for a win. That's what I blame it all on.

 

England act like a team of ex-tournament winners – an example would be Italy after the World Cup win (Euro 2008 anyone) – where the team 'picks itself' based on the reputation of the players. The sad part is that England have won balls-all in that time. Absolutely nothing. It defies credibility that we have these sacred cows even though they have provided absolutely no milk.

 

Anyway, three points. The way a league like the Premier League is set up is fundamentally out of goose. If a game is a draw, two pints are awarded; if a game is a win, three points are awarded (in toto, between the teams). Say you are manager x, of team x. Your team is as good as team y. But if you accept that they are equal, and the quite a probable outcome would be a draw*, this means you will gain 1 point. If you can take the draw out of the equation and say that you would win or lose the game, 50-50 chance, your average reward in terms of points is 1.5. It is obviously better for a club team to take risks rather than to minimise them** and play for a close result, which could easily be the disadvantageous draw.

 

Hence we have Lampard and Gerrard, two players who's whole game is about risk. In the case of Gerrard it is the risk he imposes in possession, essentially: showboating, spraying it around with Hollywood passes, and trying stupid long range shots. With Lampard it is rather what he fails to contribute. For sure, he can kick a penalty into a net and arrive late into a box – to good effect – but he offers nothing special in terms of play though the midfield, so it is essentially a gamble that a game will have a situation where he can get involved. As I said, for a club team this is a great deal, because it it better to deviate away from a draw; even if you only have a 50-50 of winning / losing it is far better than a 33 – 33 – 33 of win / lose / draw. Lampard and Gerrard have their uses in a club competition, but in international football points are not the key, winning outright is.

 

The England team is overburdened with these risk players - who have more safety nets at club level than at international - all jammed in a mob in midfield. The ultimate misfortune is that in such a situation, each one is terrified of choking and being the weak link, so they even stop taking risks (their strength) and just sit there like the players in their club squads who's job it is to protect the spaces they leave. It's beyond square pegs in round holes, its like sending three guys with machine guns onto an aeroplane to rescue the hostages, when anyone who's seen Airforce One knows that such a thing is an insane gamble of overkill-type in a pressurised cabin.

 

In a kind of parallel, but absolutely ignoring all of the above – but going on the Olympic semi final yesterday - the best international teams are made of players playing in their own position like Argentina, not those playing on reputation like Brazil. Hell, why do Germany do so well year after year with such god-awful players.

 

 

*I know that this is taking a liberty with the notion of probability, but cut me some slack.

 

** Again, I lack statistical thoroughness here.

[Guest Moe-Ali]

 

Why are we playing long balls to midgets.

 

 

Classic.