England

[The College Dropout]

Didn't watch the match tonight but I would say we would like a better out fit if Owen where regularly fit. His movement allows the like sof Lampard, Gerrard & Beckham to make hollywood passes all day because he'll get on the end of one. Really have to play a goal scorer alongside Rooney, who is turning more & more like Dirk Kuyt by the day. At Man Utd he can be dirk Kuyt because they have Ronaldo.

 

Lampard can be Lampard because he has Essien/Mikel alongside him.

 

Gerrard can be Gerrard because he has Mascherano/Alonso alongside him or he has a free role, he's also got a predator to feed.

[womblemaster]

polpolpol

 

 

good post.

 

 

really hope last night was about experimenting!!  lampard and brown and defoe ahouldnt be in an england 1st team.

 

 

can only hope with barwick going, we can drop the big name syndrome!

[mrmojorisin75]

polpolpol

 

 

good post.

 

 

really hope last night was about experimenting!!  lampard and brown and defoe ahouldnt be in an england 1st team.

 

 

can only hope with barwick going, we can drop the big name syndrome!

 

his point about risk was a good one - for as long as i can remember england managers haven't taken any due to fear of the press (presumably) and the players either for i guess the same reason...don't really think it can be attributed to pressure of the game myself, they're all wealthy people these days who've seen a fair deal of pressure before

 

in appointing cappello they've not really appointed a risk taker so i guess everyone had better get used to it

[themanupstairs]

If I may interject...

 

Brown isn't good enough for Newcastle, never mind England.

 

Good enough to start for the european champions though.  The stick Brown gets never ceases to amaze me.  Same with Rooney, both are great players for the best team around, yet apparently are s*** for England...think there might be a reason for that.

 

Then again, paradoxically I think Gerrard and Terry never really perform for England cause they're actually no way near as good as people think.  Biased I know, but I still think their comparitive club form backs me up.

 

A final word on England's best players being crap.  People whinge and whinge and whinge about Lampard and Gerrard together in a midfield.  How is it always Lampard's fault?  Why is it he, who is clearly not a centre mid and doesnt pretened to be, who should suffer to accomodate the most headless of all chickens?  If England want to make any progress Saint Steven should be dropped until he learns how to actually play in midfield, which will be never I'd guess.  Lampard should be allowed to play in his inimitable Lampardy way, with a pair of midfielders behind him who know how to defend.

 

I've noticed this place brings out the rants in me, I'm not sure why.

 

Sorry like....but that's spot the fuck on!!

 

IMO Lampard is the better of the two at what they do best. Gerard never looks interested

[themanupstairs]

3 points for a win. That's what I blame it all on.

 

England act like a team of ex-tournament winners – an example would be Italy after the World Cup win (Euro 2008 anyone) – where the team 'picks itself' based on the reputation of the players. The sad part is that England have won balls-all in that time. Absolutely nothing. It defies credibility that we have these sacred cows even though they have provided absolutely no milk.

 

Anyway, three points. The way a league like the Premier League is set up is fundamentally out of goose. If a game is a draw, two pints are awarded; if a game is a win, three points are awarded (in toto, between the teams). Say you are manager x, of team x. Your team is as good as team y. But if you accept that they are equal, and the quite a probable outcome would be a draw*, this means you will gain 1 point. If you can take the draw out of the equation and say that you would win or lose the game, 50-50 chance, your average reward in terms of points is 1.5. It is obviously better for a club team to take risks rather than to minimise them** and play for a close result, which could easily be the disadvantageous draw.

 

Hence we have Lampard and Gerrard, two players who's whole game is about risk. In the case of Gerrard it is the risk he imposes in possession, essentially: showboating, spraying it around with Hollywood passes, and trying stupid long range shots. With Lampard it is rather what he fails to contribute. For sure, he can kick a penalty into a net and arrive late into a box – to good effect – but he offers nothing special in terms of play though the midfield, so it is essentially a gamble that a game will have a situation where he can get involved. As I said, for a club team this is a great deal, because it it better to deviate away from a draw; even if you only have a 50-50 of winning / losing it is far better than a 33 – 33 – 33 of win / lose / draw. Lampard and Gerrard have their uses in a club competition, but in international football points are not the key, winning outright is.

 

The England team is overburdened with these risk players - who have more safety nets at club level than at international - all jammed in a mob in midfield. The ultimate misfortune is that in such a situation, each one is terrified of choking and being the weak link, so they even stop taking risks (their strength) and just sit there like the players in their club squads who's job it is to protect the spaces they leave. It's beyond square pegs in round holes, its like sending three guys with machine guns onto an aeroplane to rescue the hostages, when anyone who's seen Airforce One knows that such a thing is an insane gamble of overkill-type in a pressurised cabin.

 

In a kind of parallel, but absolutely ignoring all of the above – but going on the Olympic semi final yesterday - the best international teams are made of players playing in their own position like Argentina, not those playing on reputation like Brazil. Hell, why do Germany do so well year after year with such god-awful players.

 

 

*I know that this is taking a liberty with the notion of probability, but cut me some slack.

 

** Again, I lack statistical thoroughness here.

 

some serious thought provoking stuff there! cheers for that

[AyeDubbleYoo]

A lot of good thoughts knocking about on here.

 

I had big hopes for the Capello reign, I thought he would finally see that the star names shouldn't be automatic choices and that some of the big players need to be left out to create a team that operates as a unit.

 

But it seems he too is falling prey to the reputations of some of these players. A bit soon to judge, but the signs aren't good.

 

On the Lampard/Gerrard thing, I don't think it matters which one gets in, as long as we choose one.

[Disco]

Do people give England much of a chance of even qualifying for the next couple of WCs?

 

I think it could be a genuine struggle. Maybe scrape into 2010, but after that I have my doubts.

 

Is it just the group winners that qualify or is it top 2/playoffs for second?

 

Apart from the Croats, the group is fairly weak compared to others although there'll be a couple of tricky away games.

[Guest BigAl2]

I watched the Under 19's in the recent European tournament and I knew I was watching an England team plenty of pace and power and balls down the channels but no guile what so ever.

We just don't have the Messi's, Kaka's or Ronaldos of this world who dictate the pace of the game and demand the ball and can take people on, infact you can add Modric, Arshavin, Fabregas to that list predictable is the word to describe the English style of football.

[Shearergol]

If I may interject...

 

Brown isn't good enough for Newcastle, never mind England.

 

Good enough to start for the european champions though.  The stick Brown gets never ceases to amaze me.  Same with Rooney, both are great players for the best team around, yet apparently are s*** for England...think there might be a reason for that.

 

Then again, paradoxically I think Gerrard and Terry never really perform for England cause they're actually no way near as good as people think.  Biased I know, but I still think their comparitive club form backs me up.

 

A final word on England's best players being crap.  People whinge and whinge and whinge about Lampard and Gerrard together in a midfield.  How is it always Lampard's fault?  Why is it he, who is clearly not a centre mid and doesnt pretened to be, who should suffer to accomodate the most headless of all chickens?  If England want to make any progress Saint Steven should be dropped until he learns how to actually play in midfield, which will be never I'd guess.  Lampard should be allowed to play in his inimitable Lampardy way, with a pair of midfielders behind him who know how to defend.

 

I've noticed this place brings out the rants in me, I'm not sure why.

 

Sorry like....but that's spot the fuck on!!

 

IMO Lampard is the better of the two at what they do best. Gerard never looks interested

 

Absolutely spot on. Good points from both of you.

[Belfast Boy]

Do people give England much of a chance of even qualifying for the next couple of WCs?

 

I think it could be a genuine struggle. Maybe scrape into 2010, but after that I have my doubts.

 

Is it just the group winners that qualify or is it top 2/playoffs for second?

 

Apart from the Croats, the group is fairly weak compared to others although there'll be a couple of tricky away games.

 

All group winners qualify, all runners up bar the worst performing one go to playoffs.

[Ericz]

It is quite amazing how many people around the world think of England as one of the football greats in the modern game >_< Very deceptive.

 

Anyway, if there is indeed a strong insistence on playing Lampard and Gerard together, would this not be a better formation?

 

 

                              James

 

Richards  Woodgate  Terry/Ferdinand  Barry

 

                          Hargeaves

 

Cole/Bentley                            Downing/Young

 

                                    Gerard

                    Lampard 

 

                      Heskey/Ashton

 

 

What does everybody think of the formation above?

 

Lampard and Gerard are the main scoring threats

The wingers provide the creativity

Barry as left back for a more defensive option

Personally, I remember Richards as a better right back than Brown

Either Ferdinand or Terry would benefit greatly with a center back partner like Woodgate (He's our closest thing to Carvalho & Vidic I reckon.)

Heskey/Ashton provides a targetman up front and aerial threat

 

Of course, all these are merely theories I guess.

 

As for Rooney, like someone has said above, he does resembles Dirt Kyut more and more.

 

Edit: Apologies, added in an extra man >_< Corrected.. Now, the center midfield looks abit barren... grrrrr

 

Thoughts after the editing: It is not going to work! It's either Gerard or Lampard >_<

[Cronky]

It is quite amazing how many people around the world think of England as one of the football greats in the modern game >_< Very deceptive.

 

Anyway, if there is indeed a strong insistence on playing Lampard and Gerard together, would this not be a better formation?

 

 

                              James

 

Richards   Woodgate   Terry/Ferdinand   Barry

 

                   Carrick   Hargeaves

 

Cole/Bentley                            Downing/Young

 

                    Lampard   Gerard

 

                      Heskey/Ashton

 

 

What does everybody think of the formation above?

 

Lampard and Gerard are the main scoring threats

The wingers provide the creativity

Barry as left back for a more defensive option

Personally, I remember Richards as a better right back than Brown

Either Ferdinand or Terry would benefit greatly with a center back partner like Woodgate (He's our closest thing to Carvalho & Vidic I reckon.)

Heskey/Ashton provides a targetman up front and aerial threat

 

Of course, all these are merely theories I guess.

 

As for Rooney, like someone has said above, he does resembles Dirt Kyut more and more.

 

I think sneaking that extra man on to the pitch is a great idea, but you might not get away with it.

 

In general - I'm a bit surprised by how much negative comment there is about Gerrard on this Board. I thought he played well last night. Not everything came off, but he was very involved, trying to make things happen.

 

On another point - If Lampard could play in the same set-up as Chelsea, then yes, he'd be more effective, but in international football you can't expect to play in the same way that you do for your club. Players have to adjust, improvise and impose themselves when things are less than ideal for them. Some players are more versatile than others.

[Dave]

Someone ALWAYS posts a line-up with 12 men.

[Fugazi]

That's a shit smiley, Dave.

[Dave]

That's a shit smiley, Dave.

 

Andy did it.

[OzzieMandias]

England friendlies are always crap, unless we're playing Argentina or Germany.

[Dave]

Capello explained he was using Gerrard in a 4-3-2-1 system, with the Liverpool captain and Wayne Rooney supporting Jermain Defoe as a main striker.

 

"The position he had to play was in the line of the full-backs and midfield," he said. "He never played on the left."

 

Capello sought to get the best out of Liverpool's influential captain and Chelsea's Frank Lampard in the same line-up, a conundrum that has dogged his predecessors in the England job.

 

On this occasion he opted to partner Lampard with Gareth Barry in the middle with David Beckham to the right of the trio.

 

Capello added: "We played 4-3-2-1. We played Defoe, Gerrard and Rooney and three midfielders behind them. He [Gerrard] went to the left and to the middle."

 

[STM]

IF i were to pick the england team it would look like this;

 

                          Harper

 

Richards  Ferdinand      Terry    Cole

 

                                  Barry

                Carrick

Bentley                                      Young

                        Gerrard

 

                        Rooney

[mrmojorisin75]

IF i were to pick the england team it would look like this;

 

                          Harper

 

Richards  Ferdinand      Terry     Cole

 

                                   Barry

                 Carrick

Bentley                                      Young

                        Gerrard

 

                        Rooney

 

so many options with the england team, sad that none are ever taken

 

i agree with gerrard there though - he needs to be there or there abouts given freedom to maraud, he's totally untouchable when he does that

 

i'd make fat fwank carry the kits, never been an international class midfielder

[Rich]

IF i were to pick the england team it would look like this;

 

                          Harper

 

Richards  Ferdinand      Terry     Cole

 

                                   Barry

                 Carrick

Bentley                                      Young

                        Gerrard

 

                        Rooney

 

so many options with the england team, sad that none are ever taken

 

i agree with gerrard there though - he needs to be there or there abouts given freedom to maraud, he's totally untouchable when he does that

 

i'd make fat fwank carry the kits, never been an international class midfielder

 

Utter bollocks. I'll use Euro 2004 as the sole basis for my argument, because I cannot be arsed to delve any deeper than that.

[mrmojorisin75]

IF i were to pick the england team it would look like this;

 

                          Harper

 

Richards  Ferdinand      Terry     Cole

 

                                   Barry

                 Carrick

Bentley                                      Young

                        Gerrard

 

                        Rooney

 

so many options with the england team, sad that none are ever taken

 

i agree with gerrard there though - he needs to be there or there abouts given freedom to maraud, he's totally untouchable when he does that

 

i'd make fat fwank carry the kits, never been an international class midfielder

 

Utter bollocks. I'll use Euro 2004 as the sole basis for my argument, because I cannot be arsed to delve any deeper than that.

 

you can do what you like really, get on with it

 

if you can name me more than a handful games he excelled in against TOP CLASS international opposition i'll be fucken amazed, nevermind counting the amount of times he's never turned up against shite in qualifying (in this he's not alone of course)

[Guest Edd]

IF i were to pick the england team it would look like this;

 

                          Harper

 

Richards  Ferdinand      Terry     Cole

 

                                   Barry

                 Carrick

Bentley                                      Young

                        Gerrard

 

                        Rooney

 

I can see Rooney becoming as much of a problem as the whole Lampard/Gerrard thing TBH.

 

For all his qualities he's just not that great at playing up front on his own whether it's for England or ManU. (And that's without discussing his recent international goalscoring record.)  If you are the lone striker then you have to hold your position and give your team an outlet and can't be chasing all over the pitch or picking the ball up off the back 4, but stop Rooney doing that and he's only half the player.  He has to play off another striker IMO.

[Rich]

Mojo:

 

Surely you can say the same for Gerrard though?

 

He's managed to score less goals for England than Lampard, despite playing more often, arguably with more of his goals coming against shite, an' all.

 

Gerrard: Germany, Macedonia, Serbia, Switzerland, Austria, Azerbaijan, Hungary, Trinidad, Sweden, Andorra x3, USA.

 

3 in friendlies, 7 in qualifiers, 3 in major tournaments.

 

Lampard: Croatia, Iceland, France, Croatia, Portugal, Austria, Wales, Northern Ireland, Austria, Poland, Jamaica, Greece, Germany, Croatia.

 

5 in friendlies, 6 in qualifiers, 3 in major tournaments.

 

There's not much to call between them at all, yet you make Gerrard the focal point of the team while claiming Lampard isn't international class. Beggars belief.

[Dave]

Gerrard and Lampard are both good players. If given the choice I'd probably plump for Gerrard personally, but the point is I wouldn't really care which one was dropped if only he had the balls to do it.

[Rich]

Gerrard and Lampard are both good players. If given the choice I'd probably plump for Gerrard personally, but the point is I wouldn't really care which one was dropped if only he had the balls to do it.

 

Exactly.

 

Ed: Though I should qualify this by saying that at Euro 2004 I thought we played some of the best football I'd seen us play for a long, long time on a very big stage with those two in the centre, Beckham on the right and Scholes on the left. Actual good football, not just getting good results