Jonas Gutierrez

[Cajun]

If we get him to aim his shots at the corner flag one of them will have to go in sooner or later.

[Guest fading star]

It's probably more to do with a lack of confidence than anything, see his goal against France and for Mallorca, although he didn't score loads they did well last season and he got a couple of goals and a few assists iirc.

Or, not enough muscle to generate real power, so tends to have swing at it and invariably scuffs his shot? Good player though.

[ElDiablo]

It's probably more to do with a lack of confidence than anything, see his goal against France and for Mallorca, although he didn't score loads they did well last season and he got a couple of goals and a few assists iirc.

Or, not enough muscle to generate real power, so tends to have swing at it and invariably scuffs his shot? Good player though.

 

Robin van Persie.

[Mr. Snrub]

It's probably more to do with a lack of confidence than anything, see his goal against France and for Mallorca, although he didn't score loads they did well last season and he got a couple of goals and a few assists iirc.

Or, not enough muscle to generate real power, so tends to have swing at it and invariably scuffs his shot? Good player though.

 

Robin van Persie.

 

Joke?

 

You not seen some of RvP's shots and/or free kicks.  He can absolutely lash it.

[sicsfingeredmong]

Natural right-sided winger - by trade in Spain - employed on the left here, given the license to check inside. But ultimately can't shoot. That's the unforgivable sin for any wide outfielder who not only has the ability to change direction - ie. close control, and a quick burst over first 10 yards or so - on a dime, but also has the aforementioned license to check back inside. And as such Jonas is a waste of space - in the final 1/3 - on the left.

 

Robert during his all too brief flirtations in the right sided channels caused more havok in comparison, one example being the final 10 minutes against Liverpool at Anfield in season 03/04. His first touch on the ball was inside the centre-right corridor, he followed that up with a shot on target, or he may have just missed to the right. When he popped up there, there was a chance that we could steal the points late-on in that season closer. Always thought that SBR underutilized Robert in this sense.

 

As already mentioned/posted somewhere in this thread i still think his future lies in the heart of the engine room, as a ball-carrying & rebounding/deeper playing central midfielder - especially as first receiver out of our own half, with space to run into. His defensive reading of the play is solid, and he has some physical presence and durability about him - enough to cover the defensive side of the shift.

 

What's needed is a manager who is able to spot particular attributes in a player, and be prepared to persist with any so-called experiment/position change.

[ElDiablo]

It's probably more to do with a lack of confidence than anything, see his goal against France and for Mallorca, although he didn't score loads they did well last season and he got a couple of goals and a few assists iirc.

Or, not enough muscle to generate real power, so tends to have swing at it and invariably scuffs his shot? Good player though.

 

Robin van Persie.

 

Joke?

 

You not seen some of RvP's shots and/or free kicks.  He can absolutely lash it.

 

Inadvertent, but i'll take that whoosh all the same.

 

I was trying to make that exact point, that a fairly skinny guy like RvP can hit rockets and it's nothing to do with how much muscle you have in your legs.

[sicsfingeredmong]

Jonas DOES link well with Enrique, but that is more due to Enrique's movement than his ; Jonas is a luxury player in a team like Newcastle...put him in a decent side and he will look better, but his meaningful contributions are rare - very few goals scored or created by him.

 

When the team loses or fails to score, that will be all 11 players without meaningful contributions.

 

[glow=red,2,300]You cant underestimate the ability to collect the ball under pressure and either make space, beat a man and move the ball forward. [/glow]

 

If you look at the worst NUFC teams and the worst performances, you'll see players collecting balls under pressure without the ability to find a man, make space or beat a player. The team loses possession and eventually the pressure cranks up until we concede.

 

Jonas collected the ball in his own and was surrounded by 3 man u players. If he loses the ball, man u go on the attack. He didnt and we went on the attack. Thats a meaningful contribution imo.

 

All you "but he can't cross..he can't score...end product...boo hooo.." types should read this very carefully. Then read it again a few times until it registers.

 

With regards to Chez's original post. Those attributes on-the-ball you could also award to Emre, but Emre wasn't as defensively solid as Jonas. Has the makings of a very good ball-carrying link-up man, and Emre didn't have the necessary physical strength & durability to fill a spot in the middle for any meaningful amount of time, in terms of a stretch of games played. But when Emre was there - with Martins' movement and pace further afield - there wasn't much that was amiss with our second phase/counterattacking game.

 

Nobody - not me at least - is underestimating or overlooking Jonas' strengths. IMO his strengths aren't being used where they would be most advantageous, especially in terms of us creating some incisive second phase play though the middle of the park, if he was used as i've suggested some time ago.

 

With this type of player filling what is a void in the engine-room there would be very little need to persist with the long-ball rubbish from the back, to a player/s - in Martins & Owen - who are ill-equipped to deal with this persistent pattern of play from the back. Harper's distribution - his short to mid-range passing game is better than Given's - is underestimated & being undervalued by the current bosses, and Collocini is more of a play-making centrehalf as opposed to being a rough & tumble 'old fashioned' British centrehalf. And goals aside Taylor's short passing game is at the moment his redeeming quality as a centrehalf.

 

Put Beye into the equation and there's enough pass & receiving options in the defensive third who will create the necessary space - by pulling apart the opposition's zonal & pressing play in our half with the passing one-twos, triangles passing sequences - for Jonas as a 1st or 2nd Receiver.

[Neil]

Beating a man though doesn't make him a good player or should I say, doesn't necessarily gain that much of an advantage for the team.The simple fact is, at least from what I've seen, his end product simply isn't up to scratch. His contribution is meaningful but determination, drive, and beating his man now and again is useless if you can't complement that with a meaningful final touch, e.g. cross, or a shot.

[Tachikoma]

Beating a man though doesn't make him a good player or should I say, doesn't necessarily gain that much of an advantage for the team.The simple fact is, at least from what I've seen, his end product simply isn't up to scratch. His contribution is meaningful but determination, drive, and beating his man now and again is useless if you can't complement that with a meaningful final touch, e.g. cross, or a shot.

 

[Fanboy]Its the coaching, obviously. Look at how Milner's come on since moving on.[/Fanboy]

 

Jonas DOES link well with Enrique, but that is more due to Enrique's movement than his ; Jonas is a luxury player in a team like Newcastle...put him in a decent side and he will look better, but his meaningful contributions are rare - very few goals scored or created by him.

 

When the team loses or fails to score, that will be all 11 players without meaningful contributions.

 

[glow=red,2,300]You cant underestimate the ability to collect the ball under pressure and either make space, beat a man and move the ball forward. [/glow]

 

If you look at the worst NUFC teams and the worst performances, you'll see players collecting balls under pressure without the ability to find a man, make space or beat a player. The team loses possession and eventually the pressure cranks up until we concede.

 

Jonas collected the ball in his own and was surrounded by 3 man u players. If he loses the ball, man u go on the attack. He didnt and we went on the attack. Thats a meaningful contribution imo.

 

All you "but he can't cross..he can't score...end product...boo hooo.." types should read this very carefully. Then read it again a few times until it registers.

 

With regards to Chez's original post. Those attributes on-the-ball you could also award to Emre, but Emre wasn't as defensively solid as Jonas. Has the makings of a very good ball-carrying link-up man, and Emre didn't have the necessary physical strength & durability to fill a spot in the middle for any meaningful amount of time, in terms of a stretch of games played. But when Emre was there - with Martins' movement and pace further afield - there wasn't much that was amiss with our second phase/counterattacking game.

 

Nobody - not me at least - is underestimating or overlooking Jonas' strengths. IMO his strengths aren't being used where they would be most advantageous, especially in terms of us creating some incisive second phase play though the middle of the park, if he was used as i've suggested some time ago.

 

With this type of player filling what is a void in the engine-room there would be very little need to persist with the long-ball rubbish from the back, to a player/s - in Martins & Owen - who are ill-equipped to deal with this persistent pattern of play from the back. Harper's distribution - his short to mid-range passing game is better than Given's - is underestimated & being undervalued by the current bosses, and Collocini is more of a play-making centrehalf as opposed to being a rough & tumble 'old fashioned' British centrehalf. And goals aside Taylor's short passing game is at the moment his redeeming quality as a centrehalf.

 

Put Beye into the equation and there's enough pass & receiving options in the defensive third who will create the necessary space - by pulling apart the opposition's zonal & pressing play in our half with the passing one-twos, triangles passing sequences - for Jonas as a 1st or 2nd Receiver.

 

In fairness to Hughton and Co, that looked like the gameplan we had when we played Manure.

[jimmymag]

Beating a man though doesn't make him a good player or should I say, doesn't necessarily gain that much of an advantage for the team.The simple fact is, at least from what I've seen, his end product simply isn't up to scratch. His contribution is meaningful but determination, drive, and beating his man now and again is useless if you can't complement that with a meaningful final touch, e.g. cross, or a shot.

 

[Fanboy]Its the coaching, obviously. Look at how Milner's come on since moving on.[/Fanboy]

 

Jonas DOES link well with Enrique, but that is more due to Enrique's movement than his ; Jonas is a luxury player in a team like Newcastle...put him in a decent side and he will look better, but his meaningful contributions are rare - very few goals scored or created by him.

 

When the team loses or fails to score, that will be all 11 players without meaningful contributions.

 

[glow=red,2,300]You cant underestimate the ability to collect the ball under pressure and either make space, beat a man and move the ball forward. [/glow]

 

If you look at the worst NUFC teams and the worst performances, you'll see players collecting balls under pressure without the ability to find a man, make space or beat a player. The team loses possession and eventually the pressure cranks up until we concede.

 

Jonas collected the ball in his own and was surrounded by 3 man u players. If he loses the ball, man u go on the attack. He didnt and we went on the attack. Thats a meaningful contribution imo.

 

All you "but he can't cross..he can't score...end product...boo hooo.." types should read this very carefully. Then read it again a few times until it registers.

 

With regards to Chez's original post. Those attributes on-the-ball you could also award to Emre, but Emre wasn't as defensively solid as Jonas. Has the makings of a very good ball-carrying link-up man, and Emre didn't have the necessary physical strength & durability to fill a spot in the middle for any meaningful amount of time, in terms of a stretch of games played. But when Emre was there - with Martins' movement and pace further afield - there wasn't much that was amiss with our second phase/counterattacking game.

 

Nobody - not me at least - is underestimating or overlooking Jonas' strengths. IMO his strengths aren't being used where they would be most advantageous, especially in terms of us creating some incisive second phase play though the middle of the park, if he was used as i've suggested some time ago.

 

With this type of player filling what is a void in the engine-room there would be very little need to persist with the long-ball rubbish from the back, to a player/s - in Martins & Owen - who are ill-equipped to deal with this persistent pattern of play from the back. Harper's distribution - his short to mid-range passing game is better than Given's - is underestimated & being undervalued by the current bosses, and Collocini is more of a play-making centrehalf as opposed to being a rough & tumble 'old fashioned' British centrehalf. And goals aside Taylor's short passing game is at the moment his redeeming quality as a centrehalf.

 

Put Beye into the equation and there's enough pass & receiving options in the defensive third who will create the necessary space - by pulling apart the opposition's zonal & pressing play in our half with the passing one-twos, triangles passing sequences - for Jonas as a 1st or 2nd Receiver.

 

In fairness to Hughton and Co, that looked like the gameplan we had when we played Manure.

 

And then Hughton decided to change it against Hull to accommodate Owen and Butt!!!

[Guest neesy111]

Milner hasn't come on, he just looks good in a good team

 

duff has the same amount of assists and prem league goals as him, and duff must of played 1/2 of the season

 

jonas is rubbish we need players who can cross the ball and shoot, no point beat 3 men then playing a ball which either get's cleared or goes for a goal kick which happens with 90% of the crosses and shots he does.  for any professional footballer to have such a weak technique is embarrassing, he should practice after training

 

sell him in the summer and get someone who can cross the ball, even geremi is a lot better than him

 

ppl complain our strikers are not getting service but think he's the dog's bollock's, robert was a lazy twat for getting back, but he was paid to score and create goals and he was class at it for most of his time here

[Parky]

How does he get in the Argie side?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

How does he get in the Argie side?

 

They know a good player when they see one?

[Frazzle]

How does he get in the Argie side?

 

They know a good player when they see one?

 

Milner would be in the Argentina side as well to be fair.  Probably keep Messi out of the team.

 

Question for those who don't seem to rate Jonas, would you sell him in the summer? And how much for?

[Skirge]

Becoming very frustrating, yes okay lack of options anbd movement at times means he doe snot have a chance of a decent final ball but other times dear me its shokcing also for such a big powerful bloke he has a piss poor shot, all of these thngs though should be put right with good coaching. Give 2 hours a day shooting practice, most wide players in all leagues can finish, a lot of them are direct freekick takers too. He needs towork on striker a dead ball and a moving ball, then strikeing the vall whilst under pressure and not just 1 hours wwork but 1 hours every fkn day.

[jimmymag]

Becoming very frustrating, yes okay lack of options anbd movement at times means he doe snot have a chance of a decent final ball but other times dear me its shokcing also for such a big powerful bloke he has a piss poor shot, all of these thngs though should be put right with good coaching. Give 2 hours a day shooting practice, most wide players in all leagues can finish, a lot of them are direct freekick takers too. He needs towork on striker a dead ball and a moving ball, then strikeing the vall whilst under pressure and not just 1 hours wwork but 1 hours every fkn day.

 

He's not a YTS apprentice Skirge, he's a full Argentinian international for God's sake!!!

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Jonas, but his end product is piss poor for us. I've been looking at his stats and one site says he's provided 4 assists and another says 2 assists, whatever the total is it's just not good enough for a player of his undoubted ability.

[Skirge]

Aye but even at International level his goal scoring and asists are not outstanding, we cannot fault his effort at all but we need so much more from him, its not just a case of it being a new league and him needing time to settle or needing better qulity players around him, even Shearer needed help and coaching from SBR when he had a dip in form.

All players need the right coahcing to improve their game.

[Gallowgate End]

As already mentioned/posted somewhere in this thread i still think his future lies in the heart of the engine room, as a ball-carrying & rebounding/deeper playing central midfielder - especially as first receiver out of our own half, with space to run into. His defensive reading of the play is solid, and he has some physical presence and durability about him - enough to cover the defensive side of the shift.

 

<b>What's needed is a manager who is able to spot particular attributes in a player, and be prepared to persist with any so-called experiment/position change.</b>

 

Agree entirely i've been saying it for months although its not really a feasible option until productive wingers are brought and N'Zogbia and Milner are replaced with real quality.

 

Looking back it's a shame Keegan couldn't stick it out I think we would of seen him really flourish in his 4-3-3 system.

[Parky]

Becoming very frustrating, yes okay lack of options anbd movement at times means he doe snot have a chance of a decent final ball but other times dear me its shokcing also for such a big powerful bloke he has a piss poor shot, all of these thngs though should be put right with good coaching. Give 2 hours a day shooting practice, most wide players in all leagues can finish, a lot of them are direct freekick takers too. He needs towork on striker a dead ball and a moving ball, then strikeing the vall whilst under pressure and not just 1 hours wwork but 1 hours every fkn day.

 

He's not a YTS apprentice Skirge, he's a full Argentinian international for God's sake!!!

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Jonas, but his end product is piss poor for us. I've been looking at his stats and one site says he's provided 4 assists and another says 2 assists, whatever the total is it's just not good enough for a player of his undoubted ability.

 

He's pretty crap really. Good close skills and beats the odd man, but hardly any end product to speak of. Also lately he's started giving the ball away a lot.

[thomas]

Hangings too good for him if you ask me.  Burn the fucker at the stake.

[dustynrg]

Becoming very frustrating, yes okay lack of options anbd movement at times means he doe snot have a chance of a decent final ball but other times dear me its shokcing also for such a big powerful bloke he has a piss poor shot, all of these thngs though should be put right with good coaching. Give 2 hours a day shooting practice, most wide players in all leagues can finish, a lot of them are direct freekick takers too. He needs towork on striker a dead ball and a moving ball, then strikeing the vall whilst under pressure and not just 1 hours wwork but 1 hours every fkn day.

 

He's not a YTS apprentice Skirge, he's a full Argentinian international for God's sake!!!

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Jonas, but his end product is piss poor for us. I've been looking at his stats and one site says he's provided 4 assists and another says 2 assists, whatever the total is it's just not good enough for a player of his undoubted ability.

 

He's pretty crap really. Good close skills and beats the odd man, but hardly any end product to speak of. Also lately he's started giving the ball away a lot.

 

Yeh he must be - so crap he's been picked for Argentina, and we all know how crap they are as a whole.

[Parky]

Becoming very frustrating, yes okay lack of options anbd movement at times means he doe snot have a chance of a decent final ball but other times dear me its shokcing also for such a big powerful bloke he has a piss poor shot, all of these thngs though should be put right with good coaching. Give 2 hours a day shooting practice, most wide players in all leagues can finish, a lot of them are direct freekick takers too. He needs towork on striker a dead ball and a moving ball, then strikeing the vall whilst under pressure and not just 1 hours wwork but 1 hours every fkn day.

 

He's not a YTS apprentice Skirge, he's a full Argentinian international for God's sake!!!

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Jonas, but his end product is piss poor for us. I've been looking at his stats and one site says he's provided 4 assists and another says 2 assists, whatever the total is it's just not good enough for a player of his undoubted ability.

 

He's pretty crap really. Good close skills and beats the odd man, but hardly any end product to speak of. Also lately he's started giving the ball away a lot.

 

Yeh he must be - so crap he's been picked for Argentina, and we all know how crap they are as a whole.

 

 

Player plays for Argentina so he must be alright. He does next to nothing for us. What he does for us is what we're discussing not whether he plays for Argentina.

 

4 assist and 0 goals in 22 odd games. Bernard Mendy has more. 

 

 

[Skirge]

All he needs is an end produft, I am not sying drop him fkn hell given the choice Duff or Jonas on the left its Jonas every time. His tracking back and effoty cannot go unnoticed but he must start to produce going forward, you cannot afford to have a wideman that is not supllying decent corsses and chipping in with goals, BUT Emrique would would be pout under so much more pressure in Jonas was not infront of..

[Frazzle]

Becoming very frustrating, yes okay lack of options anbd movement at times means he doe snot have a chance of a decent final ball but other times dear me its shokcing also for such a big powerful bloke he has a piss poor shot, all of these thngs though should be put right with good coaching. Give 2 hours a day shooting practice, most wide players in all leagues can finish, a lot of them are direct freekick takers too. He needs towork on striker a dead ball and a moving ball, then strikeing the vall whilst under pressure and not just 1 hours wwork but 1 hours every fkn day.

 

He's not a YTS apprentice Skirge, he's a full Argentinian international for God's sake!!!

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Jonas, but his end product is piss poor for us. I've been looking at his stats and one site says he's provided 4 assists and another says 2 assists, whatever the total is it's just not good enough for a player of his undoubted ability.

 

He's pretty crap really. Good close skills and beats the odd man, but hardly any end product to speak of. Also lately he's started giving the ball away a lot.

 

Yeh he must be - so crap he's been picked for Argentina, and we all know how crap they are as a whole.

 

 

Player plays for Argentina so he must be alright. He does next to nothing for us. What he does for us is what we're discussing not whether he plays for Argentina.

 

4 assist and 0 goals in 22 odd games. Bernard Mendy has more. 

 

 

 

Assists as a stat don't really mean anything.  Take C.Ronaldo last season, I think he had about 10 assists last season, yet he would've been heavily involved in about 15-20 more goals without having an assist.

 

As they say...there's lies, damned lies and statistics.

[Guest BooBoo]

I've said for a while, that he's all fur coat and no nik naks.