Shepherd Legacy

[mrmojorisin75]

 

 

you're quite wrong. I know they weren't perfect, but I think people like you, ought to understand how much better the club was in comparison to when they came, and I don't think you appreciated the years they ran the club, even when people tried to tell you. Its only a few years since cretins booed the team for finishing 5th in the league. And many, many people scorned at qualifying for europe via the intertoto. Thats the sort of raised expectations that have been taken for granted, and is something you should think about, and is also their legacy or part of it.

 

You said yesterday that I was patronising. How else can I explain it ?? What I do take issue with though, is people who supported the club, or say they did, that don't appreciate how much better the club is, and I'm sorry but the only conclusion I can come to, is that they are lying when they claim this. Not one person I know, that actually is a long term supporter, denies that the club isn't miles better than they were when the Halls and Shepherd took over.

 

 

 

that is the first time you have ever written down clearly what you think, and feel. EVERY other time you have tried to put words into peoples mouths, made accusations about what you think they think, or what they want. If you had expressed yourself as you have in this post then you would have few arguments from me, or others.

 

My grouse with Hall and Shepherd began in 2003 n they seemed to take their eye off the ball. Up to then they had speculated to try and improve, then, for some reason they just started randomly increasing salaries, givinbg out 5 year contracts, randomly appointing managers, and not speculating to improve, but gambling to survive. That was the difference.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt staying in the top division was a major achievement, worthy of credit. I am old enough to appreciate this.  Every side in England has a new stadium, or vastly improved stadium, though, us having one doesn't Shepherd apart from the rest.

 

The last season under McKeag we lost £3m, on only £4.2m coming in to the club. The club spent £440,000 on new players. We also spent £300,000 getting rid of a Jim Smith. We had a wage bill of £2.6m. We had debts of £7m.

The reason I quote all these boring numbers is that if you multiply them all up it is essentially the state that Shepherd left the club in 16 years later. £32m loss on £87m income. Spent more than 10% of income on new players. Spent the same sort of percentage sacking the manager, again. Wages were 70% of income, debts of £70m. 

 

To me Shepherd has left the club with the same financial mess that John Hall inherited, we have had great fun along the way, many fortunes have been made, but looking at what he has passed to his successor, it is scarily similar to 1991. Just as it couldn't go on in 1991 it could not have continued in 2007.

 

We were fortunate to get Sir John, we have been unfortunate to get Mike Ashley. If Shepherd had stayed in charge there would have been no money to "speculate" cos there was nowhere to get the money from, it had all gone.

 

 

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before. Have you forgotten , because you replied to it, and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I really couldn't give a toss about those figures above. The simple fact is, the club was bankrupt in 1991, counldn't sell it for 2.5m quid, had one foot in the 3rd division, played in front of a cow shed masquerading as a football stadium and 15 years later, had qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, played in the Champions League, expanded the stadium to one of the best and biggest in the UK, and filled it, bought major international players instead of selling them, and was worth one of the highest valuations in the country through massively raising the profile of the club, is the legacy.

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

You're clueless. And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

One last point. You say we were "lucky to get Sir John". Well, Sir John was lucky to have Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd as his co-directors, because these were the people who were completely responsible for getting Keegan to the club first time round, when Sir John didn't want to change the manager and they almost threw him into his lap and forced him to sack Ardiles. Depending on who you believe, but  I tend to believe what Keegan says in his own book. Unless you think what we achieved would have happened with any old Charllie Bloggs as manager of the football team, such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

 

 

NE5, give it up man, please, just retire gracefully with your dignity semi intact like FS did

 

some of the shit macbeth is posting here is fucking terrifying, it truly is...spending the northern rock money then loaning shit off them...?  come on dude, it's amateur hour and FS is the ringmaster..you think that's sound business do you?  please answer that one ay least

 

lets skip the bit where you tell me you've seen it all and i'm a sky fan, why don't you deal with the reality for once?

 

you can't, 'cause all you have is your european qualification and shit, well they'd passed us by well before MA came along yet i'm guessing you're blaming him?

 

i can't be arsed to continue, get a grip man

[Guest Howaythetoon]

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/ENG/St_James_Park_A.jpg

 

Via our pockets of course.

[madras]

The title of this thread is Shepherd Legacy.  The issue is what did Shepherd's time as Chairman leave for us.

 

We have a truly great stadium. There are bigger, there are those that are deeper, but the ground is magnificent. It's better than Old Trafford, it's better than Stamford Bridge and it's even better than Themirates.

 

We have great memories; we competed in Europe as never before. We briefly punched our weight.

 

We spent money to buy good players to improve our performance, some of whom are still with us.

 

We were on our way to becoming skint when he sold. This may have put us out of business.

 

Our future was left in the hands of too few people, Keegan, Ashley, Llambias, Wise, a Nigerian tycoon, an Arab tycoon.

 

 

 

 

thats nailed it.

 

in others, a good board that did a lot for the club, easily the best and most progressive we have had in at least 50 years, and replacing them with better will be quite a difficult task ?

 

 

 

I have never argued that Shepherd was a failure; I remember black and white telly too. All I say is that it could have turned out so much better after he went but that he had to go because he was no longer taking us forward. His legacy is strength is some areas but he left us vulnerable in others; hence the current situation.

 

I wouldn't argue with what you say, I see it how I have said it too. My comments are aimed at madras in this instance, but a few others eg mick and macbeth can agree if they like, as its pretty undisputable. But I bet that they won't admit it.

 

Thats what happens though when your "opinions" are personality-based and not factually based.

 

There's no doubt that appointing Souness was the start of their fall from grace [not the "dogs" business which was absurdly and childishly clung onto by those of a sensitive nature, or those who have a fondness for cliches or jumping on bandwagons rather than have their own opinion although I bet they were all happy to go to 2 FA Cup Finals and enjoy the Champions League games] but that isn't to say they would not have appointed a good manager and been successful again. So long as you understand the basics, there is always a chance of that. Better to have someone who understands the game than someone who doesn't, like Ashley [and hopefully his successor will understand the game].

 

To me, their legacy is pretty straightforward. They gave me as a supporter the best decade and a half supporting the club than anybody else has ever done by miles, and left it a million miles better than when they walked through the door. 

 

 

i'm not going to disagree with much of that but i'll add that in the end they were going downhill with little sign of turning it round. (lehman bros is a good analogy.  their board was a good board when things were going well but they have to accept that in the end it was them who brought the whole thing down)

[Guest elbee909]

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/ENG/St_James_Park_A.jpg

 

Via our pockets of course.

 

I still keep thinking it's going to tip over and sink into the ground.

[madras]

Yet you seem incapable of understanding why people have issues with what he/they didn't do so well..

 

you're quite wrong. I know they weren't perfect, but I think people like you, ought to understand how much better the club was in comparison to when they came, and I don't think you appreciated the years they ran the club, even when people tried to tell you. Its only a few years since cretins booed the team for finishing 5th in the league. And many, many people scorned at qualifying for europe via the intertoto. Thats the sort of raised expectations that have been taken for granted, and is something you should think about, and is also their legacy or part of it.

 

You said yesterday that I was patronising. How else can I explain it ?? What I do take issue with though, is people who supported the club, or say they did, that don't appreciate how much better the club is, and I'm sorry but the only conclusion I can come to, is that they are lying when they claim this. Not one person I know, that actually is a long term supporter, denies that the club isn't miles better than they were when the Halls and Shepherd took over.

 

 

whilst people like me don't think people like you understand that from a position of  finishing 3rd,2nd round of champs lge (yes thanks fred and doug for all you done in getting us there) and the chance to build on it we turned into a snowball running downhill and they weren't going to turn it round.

[madras]

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it

 

i quite agree but it is also true that when they left, they left it in a much worse position than 3 or 4 years previous.

[OzzieMandias]

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/ENG/St_James_Park_A.jpg

 

Via our pockets of course.

 

Ashley's paid for the biggest chunk.

[NE5]

 

 

you're quite wrong. I know they weren't perfect, but I think people like you, ought to understand how much better the club was in comparison to when they came, and I don't think you appreciated the years they ran the club, even when people tried to tell you. Its only a few years since cretins booed the team for finishing 5th in the league. And many, many people scorned at qualifying for europe via the intertoto. Thats the sort of raised expectations that have been taken for granted, and is something you should think about, and is also their legacy or part of it.

 

You said yesterday that I was patronising. How else can I explain it ?? What I do take issue with though, is people who supported the club, or say they did, that don't appreciate how much better the club is, and I'm sorry but the only conclusion I can come to, is that they are lying when they claim this. Not one person I know, that actually is a long term supporter, denies that the club isn't miles better than they were when the Halls and Shepherd took over.

 

 

 

that is the first time you have ever written down clearly what you think, and feel. EVERY other time you have tried to put words into peoples mouths, made accusations about what you think they think, or what they want. If you had expressed yourself as you have in this post then you would have few arguments from me, or others.

 

My grouse with Hall and Shepherd began in 2003 n they seemed to take their eye off the ball. Up to then they had speculated to try and improve, then, for some reason they just started randomly increasing salaries, givinbg out 5 year contracts, randomly appointing managers, and not speculating to improve, but gambling to survive. That was the difference.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt staying in the top division was a major achievement, worthy of credit. I am old enough to appreciate this.  Every side in England has a new stadium, or vastly improved stadium, though, us having one doesn't Shepherd apart from the rest.

 

The last season under McKeag we lost £3m, on only £4.2m coming in to the club. The club spent £440,000 on new players. We also spent £300,000 getting rid of a Jim Smith. We had a wage bill of £2.6m. We had debts of £7m.

The reason I quote all these boring numbers is that if you multiply them all up it is essentially the state that Shepherd left the club in 16 years later. £32m loss on £87m income. Spent more than 10% of income on new players. Spent the same sort of percentage sacking the manager, again. Wages were 70% of income, debts of £70m. 

 

To me Shepherd has left the club with the same financial mess that John Hall inherited, we have had great fun along the way, many fortunes have been made, but looking at what he has passed to his successor, it is scarily similar to 1991. Just as it couldn't go on in 1991 it could not have continued in 2007.

 

We were fortunate to get Sir John, we have been unfortunate to get Mike Ashley. If Shepherd had stayed in charge there would have been no money to "speculate" cos there was nowhere to get the money from, it had all gone.

 

 

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before. Have you forgotten , because you replied to it, and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I really couldn't give a toss about those figures above. The simple fact is, the club was bankrupt in 1991, counldn't sell it for 2.5m quid, had one foot in the 3rd division, played in front of a cow shed masquerading as a football stadium and 15 years later, had qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, played in the Champions League, expanded the stadium to one of the best and biggest in the UK, and filled it, bought major international players instead of selling them, and was worth one of the highest valuations in the country through massively raising the profile of the club, is the legacy.

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

You're clueless. And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

One last point. You say we were "lucky to get Sir John". Well, Sir John was lucky to have Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd as his co-directors, because these were the people who were completely responsible for getting Keegan to the club first time round, when Sir John didn't want to change the manager and they almost threw him into his lap and forced him to sack Ardiles. Depending on who you believe, but  I tend to believe what Keegan says in his own book. Unless you think what we achieved would have happened with any old Charllie Bloggs as manager of the football team, such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

 

 

NE5, give it up man, please, just retire gracefully with your dignity semi intact like FS did

 

some of the shit macbeth is posting here is fucking terrifying, it truly is...spending the northern rock money then loaning shit off them...?  come on dude, it's amateur hour and FS is the ringmaster..you think that's sound business do you?  please answer that one ay least

 

lets skip the bit where you tell me you've seen it all and i'm a sky fan, why don't you deal with the reality for once?

 

you can't, 'cause all you have is your european qualification and shit, well they'd passed us by well before MA came along yet i'm guessing you're blaming him?

 

i can't be arsed to continue, get a grip man

 

terrifying ?

 

Do you think the clubs current predicament is also terrifying ? How terrifying ?

 

I can understand that people like you, used to supporting a club trying to be progressive and competing at the top end, are terrified.

 

But me ? You think I'm terrified ?

 

I'm not half so terrified [what a grand attention seeking word] as when the club couldn't find a buyer for 2.5m quid, and had one foot in the 3rd division.

 

I'm also a lot more "terrified" at the clubs current predicament in comparison to when the club  disgracefully had to resort to qualify for europe via the intertoto, and also sufferered the utter humiliation of being booed for only finishing 5th in the premiership.

 

Of course, you witness tonights attendance and apathy, and the lowest crowd for any league or cup game since, eer.. before the Halls and Shepherd took over the club, and also.....eeer........took it forward from a situation whereby the crowd and apathy of tonight was pretty much the normal and occured every Saturday afternoon league game for years, in fact decades apart from the odd blip where the club actually achieved a mid table position in the old 1st division, which is now the premiership for the younger lads.

 

Also of course, people like mick [and he said this ] have said that tonights crowd and general apathy, which was the norm for years and years, is "the same as" that of the last 15 years.

 

You couldnt' make it up. The surprising thing is that people like you actually believe this to be true. Instead of listening to people who were there.

 

There has been a lot more "terrifying" events at this club than this son ........ believe me.

 

 

[Thespence]

http://www.fussballtempel.net/uefa/ENG/St_James_Park_A.jpg

 

Via our pockets of course.

 

Ashley's paid for the biggest chunk.

 

I guess that is being passed on to the next owners?

 

The ground improvements were paid for by NEWCASTLE UNITED FOOTBALL CLUB, WHO BORROWED THE MONEY TO DO THE WORK.

[mrmojorisin75]

 

 

you're quite wrong. I know they weren't perfect, but I think people like you, ought to understand how much better the club was in comparison to when they came, and I don't think you appreciated the years they ran the club, even when people tried to tell you. Its only a few years since cretins booed the team for finishing 5th in the league. And many, many people scorned at qualifying for europe via the intertoto. Thats the sort of raised expectations that have been taken for granted, and is something you should think about, and is also their legacy or part of it.

 

You said yesterday that I was patronising. How else can I explain it ?? What I do take issue with though, is people who supported the club, or say they did, that don't appreciate how much better the club is, and I'm sorry but the only conclusion I can come to, is that they are lying when they claim this. Not one person I know, that actually is a long term supporter, denies that the club isn't miles better than they were when the Halls and Shepherd took over.

 

 

 

that is the first time you have ever written down clearly what you think, and feel. EVERY other time you have tried to put words into peoples mouths, made accusations about what you think they think, or what they want. If you had expressed yourself as you have in this post then you would have few arguments from me, or others.

 

My grouse with Hall and Shepherd began in 2003 n they seemed to take their eye off the ball. Up to then they had speculated to try and improve, then, for some reason they just started randomly increasing salaries, givinbg out 5 year contracts, randomly appointing managers, and not speculating to improve, but gambling to survive. That was the difference.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt staying in the top division was a major achievement, worthy of credit. I am old enough to appreciate this.  Every side in England has a new stadium, or vastly improved stadium, though, us having one doesn't Shepherd apart from the rest.

 

The last season under McKeag we lost £3m, on only £4.2m coming in to the club. The club spent £440,000 on new players. We also spent £300,000 getting rid of a Jim Smith. We had a wage bill of £2.6m. We had debts of £7m.

The reason I quote all these boring numbers is that if you multiply them all up it is essentially the state that Shepherd left the club in 16 years later. £32m loss on £87m income. Spent more than 10% of income on new players. Spent the same sort of percentage sacking the manager, again. Wages were 70% of income, debts of £70m. 

 

To me Shepherd has left the club with the same financial mess that John Hall inherited, we have had great fun along the way, many fortunes have been made, but looking at what he has passed to his successor, it is scarily similar to 1991. Just as it couldn't go on in 1991 it could not have continued in 2007.

 

We were fortunate to get Sir John, we have been unfortunate to get Mike Ashley. If Shepherd had stayed in charge there would have been no money to "speculate" cos there was nowhere to get the money from, it had all gone.

 

 

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before. Have you forgotten , because you replied to it, and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I really couldn't give a toss about those figures above. The simple fact is, the club was bankrupt in 1991, counldn't sell it for 2.5m quid, had one foot in the 3rd division, played in front of a cow shed masquerading as a football stadium and 15 years later, had qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, played in the Champions League, expanded the stadium to one of the best and biggest in the UK, and filled it, bought major international players instead of selling them, and was worth one of the highest valuations in the country through massively raising the profile of the club, is the legacy.

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

You're clueless. And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

One last point. You say we were "lucky to get Sir John". Well, Sir John was lucky to have Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd as his co-directors, because these were the people who were completely responsible for getting Keegan to the club first time round, when Sir John didn't want to change the manager and they almost threw him into his lap and forced him to sack Ardiles. Depending on who you believe, but  I tend to believe what Keegan says in his own book. Unless you think what we achieved would have happened with any old Charllie Bloggs as manager of the football team, such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

 

 

NE5, give it up man, please, just retire gracefully with your dignity semi intact like FS did

 

some of the shit macbeth is posting here is fucking terrifying, it truly is...spending the northern rock money then loaning shit off them...?  come on dude, it's amateur hour and FS is the ringmaster..you think that's sound business do you?  please answer that one ay least

 

lets skip the bit where you tell me you've seen it all and i'm a sky fan, why don't you deal with the reality for once?

 

you can't, 'cause all you have is your european qualification and shit, well they'd passed us by well before MA came along yet i'm guessing you're blaming him?

 

i can't be arsed to continue, get a grip man

 

terrifying ?

 

Do you think the clubs current predicament is also terrifying ? How terrifying ?

 

I can understand that people like you, used to supporting a club trying to be progressive and competing at the top end, are terrified.

 

But me ? You think I'm terrified ?

 

I'm not half so terrified [what a grand attention seeking word] as when the club couldn't find a buyer for 2.5m quid, and had one foot in the 3rd division.

 

I'm also a lot more "terrified" at the clubs current predicament in comparison to when the club  disgracefully had to resort to qualify for europe via the intertoto, and also sufferered the utter humiliation of being booed for only finishing 5th in the premiership.

 

Of course, you witness tonights attendance and apathy, and the lowest crowd for any league or cup game since, eer.. before the Halls and Shepherd took over the club, and also.....eeer........took it forward from a situation whereby the crowd and apathy of tonight was pretty much the normal and occured every Saturday afternoon league game for years, in fact decades apart from the odd blip where the club actually achieved a mid table position in the old 1st division, which is now the premiership for the younger lads.

 

Also of course, people like mick [and he said this ] have said that tonights crowd and general apathy, which was the norm for years and years, is "the same as" that of the last 15 years.

 

You couldnt' make it up. The surprising thing is that people like you actually believe this to be true. Instead of listening to people who were there.

 

There has been a lot more "terrifying" events at this club than this son ........ believe me.

 

 

 

bollocks, drunk dialling again...disregard it as shite, which you've done anyways

 

and yes, i'm terrified now alright too - i'm just terrified by both, our current state of affairs more so of course, agreed

[NE5]

 

 

you're quite wrong. I know they weren't perfect, but I think people like you, ought to understand how much better the club was in comparison to when they came, and I don't think you appreciated the years they ran the club, even when people tried to tell you. Its only a few years since cretins booed the team for finishing 5th in the league. And many, many people scorned at qualifying for europe via the intertoto. Thats the sort of raised expectations that have been taken for granted, and is something you should think about, and is also their legacy or part of it.

 

You said yesterday that I was patronising. How else can I explain it ?? What I do take issue with though, is people who supported the club, or say they did, that don't appreciate how much better the club is, and I'm sorry but the only conclusion I can come to, is that they are lying when they claim this. Not one person I know, that actually is a long term supporter, denies that the club isn't miles better than they were when the Halls and Shepherd took over.

 

 

 

that is the first time you have ever written down clearly what you think, and feel. EVERY other time you have tried to put words into peoples mouths, made accusations about what you think they think, or what they want. If you had expressed yourself as you have in this post then you would have few arguments from me, or others.

 

My grouse with Hall and Shepherd began in 2003 n they seemed to take their eye off the ball. Up to then they had speculated to try and improve, then, for some reason they just started randomly increasing salaries, givinbg out 5 year contracts, randomly appointing managers, and not speculating to improve, but gambling to survive. That was the difference.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt staying in the top division was a major achievement, worthy of credit. I am old enough to appreciate this.  Every side in England has a new stadium, or vastly improved stadium, though, us having one doesn't Shepherd apart from the rest.

 

The last season under McKeag we lost £3m, on only £4.2m coming in to the club. The club spent £440,000 on new players. We also spent £300,000 getting rid of a Jim Smith. We had a wage bill of £2.6m. We had debts of £7m.

The reason I quote all these boring numbers is that if you multiply them all up it is essentially the state that Shepherd left the club in 16 years later. £32m loss on £87m income. Spent more than 10% of income on new players. Spent the same sort of percentage sacking the manager, again. Wages were 70% of income, debts of £70m. 

 

To me Shepherd has left the club with the same financial mess that John Hall inherited, we have had great fun along the way, many fortunes have been made, but looking at what he has passed to his successor, it is scarily similar to 1991. Just as it couldn't go on in 1991 it could not have continued in 2007.

 

We were fortunate to get Sir John, we have been unfortunate to get Mike Ashley. If Shepherd had stayed in charge there would have been no money to "speculate" cos there was nowhere to get the money from, it had all gone.

 

 

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before. Have you forgotten , because you replied to it, and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I really couldn't give a toss about those figures above. The simple fact is, the club was bankrupt in 1991, counldn't sell it for 2.5m quid, had one foot in the 3rd division, played in front of a cow shed masquerading as a football stadium and 15 years later, had qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, played in the Champions League, expanded the stadium to one of the best and biggest in the UK, and filled it, bought major international players instead of selling them, and was worth one of the highest valuations in the country through massively raising the profile of the club, is the legacy.

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

You're clueless. And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

One last point. You say we were "lucky to get Sir John". Well, Sir John was lucky to have Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd as his co-directors, because these were the people who were completely responsible for getting Keegan to the club first time round, when Sir John didn't want to change the manager and they almost threw him into his lap and forced him to sack Ardiles. Depending on who you believe, but  I tend to believe what Keegan says in his own book. Unless you think what we achieved would have happened with any old Charllie Bloggs as manager of the football team, such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

 

 

NE5, give it up man, please, just retire gracefully with your dignity semi intact like FS did

 

some of the shit macbeth is posting here is fucking terrifying, it truly is...spending the northern rock money then loaning shit off them...?  come on dude, it's amateur hour and FS is the ringmaster..you think that's sound business do you?  please answer that one ay least

 

lets skip the bit where you tell me you've seen it all and i'm a sky fan, why don't you deal with the reality for once?

 

you can't, 'cause all you have is your european qualification and shit, well they'd passed us by well before MA came along yet i'm guessing you're blaming him?

 

i can't be arsed to continue, get a grip man

 

terrifying ?

 

Do you think the clubs current predicament is also terrifying ? How terrifying ?

 

I can understand that people like you, used to supporting a club trying to be progressive and competing at the top end, are terrified.

 

But me ? You think I'm terrified ?

 

I'm not half so terrified [what a grand attention seeking word] as when the club couldn't find a buyer for 2.5m quid, and had one foot in the 3rd division.

 

I'm also a lot more "terrified" at the clubs current predicament in comparison to when the club  disgracefully had to resort to qualify for europe via the intertoto, and also sufferered the utter humiliation of being booed for only finishing 5th in the premiership.

 

Of course, you witness tonights attendance and apathy, and the lowest crowd for any league or cup game since, eer.. before the Halls and Shepherd took over the club, and also.....eeer........took it forward from a situation whereby the crowd and apathy of tonight was pretty much the normal and occured every Saturday afternoon league game for years, in fact decades apart from the odd blip where the club actually achieved a mid table position in the old 1st division, which is now the premiership for the younger lads.

 

Also of course, people like mick [and he said this ] have said that tonights crowd and general apathy, which was the norm for years and years, is "the same as" that of the last 15 years.

 

You couldnt' make it up. The surprising thing is that people like you actually believe this to be true. Instead of listening to people who were there.

 

There has been a lot more "terrifying" events at this club than this son ........ believe me.

 

 

 

bollocks, drunk dialling again...disregard it as shite, which you've done anyways

 

and yes, i'm terrified now alright too - i'm just terrified by both, our current state of affairs more so of course, agreed

 

Sadly, its not a rant or anything, its all true. I take your point about leaving it alone too, you've got a point again. After the latest events going on at this club, and you STILL won' take note of all this, there is really not much point in continuing to say the same thing all the time to you and others.

 

Some people are seeing though, I suspect they are some of those keeping quiet.

 

 

[Guest elbee909]

NE5, you're probably right about a fair few things.  You just put it across in such a shit way that no-one wants to concede any points to you at all, for fear that they'll just never hear the end of it with logic that goes "you said I was right once, that means you're always wrong".

[mrmojorisin75]

 

 

you're quite wrong. I know they weren't perfect, but I think people like you, ought to understand how much better the club was in comparison to when they came, and I don't think you appreciated the years they ran the club, even when people tried to tell you. Its only a few years since cretins booed the team for finishing 5th in the league. And many, many people scorned at qualifying for europe via the intertoto. Thats the sort of raised expectations that have been taken for granted, and is something you should think about, and is also their legacy or part of it.

 

You said yesterday that I was patronising. How else can I explain it ?? What I do take issue with though, is people who supported the club, or say they did, that don't appreciate how much better the club is, and I'm sorry but the only conclusion I can come to, is that they are lying when they claim this. Not one person I know, that actually is a long term supporter, denies that the club isn't miles better than they were when the Halls and Shepherd took over.

 

 

 

that is the first time you have ever written down clearly what you think, and feel. EVERY other time you have tried to put words into peoples mouths, made accusations about what you think they think, or what they want. If you had expressed yourself as you have in this post then you would have few arguments from me, or others.

 

My grouse with Hall and Shepherd began in 2003 n they seemed to take their eye off the ball. Up to then they had speculated to try and improve, then, for some reason they just started randomly increasing salaries, givinbg out 5 year contracts, randomly appointing managers, and not speculating to improve, but gambling to survive. That was the difference.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt staying in the top division was a major achievement, worthy of credit. I am old enough to appreciate this.  Every side in England has a new stadium, or vastly improved stadium, though, us having one doesn't Shepherd apart from the rest.

 

The last season under McKeag we lost £3m, on only £4.2m coming in to the club. The club spent £440,000 on new players. We also spent £300,000 getting rid of a Jim Smith. We had a wage bill of £2.6m. We had debts of £7m.

The reason I quote all these boring numbers is that if you multiply them all up it is essentially the state that Shepherd left the club in 16 years later. £32m loss on £87m income. Spent more than 10% of income on new players. Spent the same sort of percentage sacking the manager, again. Wages were 70% of income, debts of £70m. 

 

To me Shepherd has left the club with the same financial mess that John Hall inherited, we have had great fun along the way, many fortunes have been made, but looking at what he has passed to his successor, it is scarily similar to 1991. Just as it couldn't go on in 1991 it could not have continued in 2007.

 

We were fortunate to get Sir John, we have been unfortunate to get Mike Ashley. If Shepherd had stayed in charge there would have been no money to "speculate" cos there was nowhere to get the money from, it had all gone.

 

 

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before. Have you forgotten , because you replied to it, and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I really couldn't give a toss about those figures above. The simple fact is, the club was bankrupt in 1991, counldn't sell it for 2.5m quid, had one foot in the 3rd division, played in front of a cow shed masquerading as a football stadium and 15 years later, had qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, played in the Champions League, expanded the stadium to one of the best and biggest in the UK, and filled it, bought major international players instead of selling them, and was worth one of the highest valuations in the country through massively raising the profile of the club, is the legacy.

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

You're clueless. And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

One last point. You say we were "lucky to get Sir John". Well, Sir John was lucky to have Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd as his co-directors, because these were the people who were completely responsible for getting Keegan to the club first time round, when Sir John didn't want to change the manager and they almost threw him into his lap and forced him to sack Ardiles. Depending on who you believe, but  I tend to believe what Keegan says in his own book. Unless you think what we achieved would have happened with any old Charllie Bloggs as manager of the football team, such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

 

 

NE5, give it up man, please, just retire gracefully with your dignity semi intact like FS did

 

some of the shit macbeth is posting here is fucking terrifying, it truly is...spending the northern rock money then loaning shit off them...?  come on dude, it's amateur hour and FS is the ringmaster..you think that's sound business do you?  please answer that one ay least

 

lets skip the bit where you tell me you've seen it all and i'm a sky fan, why don't you deal with the reality for once?

 

you can't, 'cause all you have is your european qualification and shit, well they'd passed us by well before MA came along yet i'm guessing you're blaming him?

 

i can't be arsed to continue, get a grip man

 

terrifying ?

 

Do you think the clubs current predicament is also terrifying ? How terrifying ?

 

I can understand that people like you, used to supporting a club trying to be progressive and competing at the top end, are terrified.

 

But me ? You think I'm terrified ?

 

I'm not half so terrified [what a grand attention seeking word] as when the club couldn't find a buyer for 2.5m quid, and had one foot in the 3rd division.

 

I'm also a lot more "terrified" at the clubs current predicament in comparison to when the club  disgracefully had to resort to qualify for europe via the intertoto, and also sufferered the utter humiliation of being booed for only finishing 5th in the premiership.

 

Of course, you witness tonights attendance and apathy, and the lowest crowd for any league or cup game since, eer.. before the Halls and Shepherd took over the club, and also.....eeer........took it forward from a situation whereby the crowd and apathy of tonight was pretty much the normal and occured every Saturday afternoon league game for years, in fact decades apart from the odd blip where the club actually achieved a mid table position in the old 1st division, which is now the premiership for the younger lads.

 

Also of course, people like mick [and he said this ] have said that tonights crowd and general apathy, which was the norm for years and years, is "the same as" that of the last 15 years.

 

You couldnt' make it up. The surprising thing is that people like you actually believe this to be true. Instead of listening to people who were there.

 

There has been a lot more "terrifying" events at this club than this son ........ believe me.

 

 

 

bollocks, drunk dialling again...disregard it as shite, which you've done anyways

 

and yes, i'm terrified now alright too - i'm just terrified by both, our current state of affairs more so of course, agreed

 

Sadly, its not a rant or anything, its all true. I take your point about leaving it alone too, you've got a point again. After the latest events going on at this club, and you STILL won' take note of all this, there is really not much point in continuing to say the same thing all the time to you and others.

 

Some people are seeing though, I suspect they are some of those keeping quiet.

 

 

 

i think i agree with elbee there to be honest in a way, i'm with you about many things and have said so in the past

 

i just feel i can be worried about both, or at least see that there's something to be worried about in both scenarios, whereas you appear unable or unwilling to concede there might have been something not 100% perfect in the last setup

 

anyways done to death as you say, but you're totally right about how bad things are at the moment and that's due to chronic underinvestment on players and driving a good manager out - something the last board didn't do much of (SBR excepted)

[OzzieMandias]

Apart from SBR, they didn't appoint many good managers to drive out. But hey, they managed with him, and the floatation drove out their only other successful appointment.

[Thomson Mouse]

NE5, you're probably right about a fair few things.  You just put it across in such a s*** way that no-one wants to concede any points to you at all, for fear that they'll just never hear the end of it with logic that goes "you said I was right once, that means you're always wrong".

 

Wouldn't say a fair few things, but his second from last post was very condescending.

 

Can't even be bothered to read his guff anymore, on any thread.

 

Obnoxious bastard.

[thomas]

NE5, you're probably right about a fair few things.  You just put it across in such a s*** way that no-one wants to concede any points to you at all, for fear that they'll just never hear the end of it with logic that goes "you said I was right once, that means you're always wrong".

 

Wouldn't say a fair few things, but his second from last post was very condescending.

 

Can't even be bothered to read his guff anymore, on any thread.

 

Obnoxious bastard.

The real shame of it all is that he thinks he's "winning" arguments with "facts" that no one wants to "dispute" when he drives people away like that.  The vicious cycle of delusion continues anew.

[merlin]

 

 

you're quite wrong. I know they weren't perfect, but I think people like you, ought to understand how much better the club was in comparison to when they came, and I don't think you appreciated the years they ran the club, even when people tried to tell you. Its only a few years since cretins booed the team for finishing 5th in the league. And many, many people scorned at qualifying for europe via the intertoto. Thats the sort of raised expectations that have been taken for granted, and is something you should think about, and is also their legacy or part of it.

 

You said yesterday that I was patronising. How else can I explain it ?? What I do take issue with though, is people who supported the club, or say they did, that don't appreciate how much better the club is, and I'm sorry but the only conclusion I can come to, is that they are lying when they claim this. Not one person I know, that actually is a long term supporter, denies that the club isn't miles better than they were when the Halls and Shepherd took over.

 

 

 

that is the first time you have ever written down clearly what you think, and feel. EVERY other time you have tried to put words into peoples mouths, made accusations about what you think they think, or what they want. If you had expressed yourself as you have in this post then you would have few arguments from me, or others.

 

My grouse with Hall and Shepherd began in 2003 n they seemed to take their eye off the ball. Up to then they had speculated to try and improve, then, for some reason they just started randomly increasing salaries, givinbg out 5 year contracts, randomly appointing managers, and not speculating to improve, but gambling to survive. That was the difference.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt staying in the top division was a major achievement, worthy of credit. I am old enough to appreciate this.  Every side in England has a new stadium, or vastly improved stadium, though, us having one doesn't Shepherd apart from the rest.

 

The last season under McKeag we lost £3m, on only £4.2m coming in to the club. The club spent £440,000 on new players. We also spent £300,000 getting rid of a Jim Smith. We had a wage bill of £2.6m. We had debts of £7m.

The reason I quote all these boring numbers is that if you multiply them all up it is essentially the state that Shepherd left the club in 16 years later. £32m loss on £87m income. Spent more than 10% of income on new players. Spent the same sort of percentage sacking the manager, again. Wages were 70% of income, debts of £70m. 

 

To me Shepherd has left the club with the same financial mess that John Hall inherited, we have had great fun along the way, many fortunes have been made, but looking at what he has passed to his successor, it is scarily similar to 1991. Just as it couldn't go on in 1991 it could not have continued in 2007.

 

We were fortunate to get Sir John, we have been unfortunate to get Mike Ashley. If Shepherd had stayed in charge there would have been no money to "speculate" cos there was nowhere to get the money from, it had all gone.

 

 

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before. Have you forgotten , because you replied to it, and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I really couldn't give a toss about those figures above. The simple fact is, the club was bankrupt in 1991, counldn't sell it for 2.5m quid, had one foot in the 3rd division, played in front of a cow shed masquerading as a football stadium and 15 years later, had qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, played in the Champions League, expanded the stadium to one of the best and biggest in the UK, and filled it, bought major international players instead of selling them, and was worth one of the highest valuations in the country through massively raising the profile of the club, is the legacy.

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

You're clueless. And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

One last point. You say we were "lucky to get Sir John". Well, Sir John was lucky to have Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd as his co-directors, because these were the people who were completely responsible for getting Keegan to the club first time round, when Sir John didn't want to change the manager and they almost threw him into his lap and forced him to sack Ardiles. Depending on who you believe, but  I tend to believe what Keegan says in his own book. Unless you think what we achieved would have happened with any old Charllie Bloggs as manager of the football team, such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

 

 

'Sir John lucky to have Fletcher..'

Sorry, NE5, I'm afraid that it was the other way round ; Fletcher was a FORMER exec at Rangers before he got involved in NUFC,and his initial brief was to sort out the club's Promotions/ Retail Op..

SJH placed a great deal of trust in him and gave him plenty of licence ..he made himself into a millionaire with SJH's help and, if you were able to ask SJH what happened in later years you would not get a very happy story...

Ask KD what HE thought of Fletcher....

As for complaining that SJH didn't want to sack Ardiles, yes, maybe he WAS misguided, but this club has been criticised for lack of stability on too many occasions ; KK had NO interference in his job when SJH was Chairman - can Shepherd  make that claim about his managers, esp SBR, when he sold Speed without Robson's approval ??

[Thomson Mouse]

 

 

you're quite wrong. I know they weren't perfect, but I think people like you, ought to understand how much better the club was in comparison to when they came, and I don't think you appreciated the years they ran the club, even when people tried to tell you. Its only a few years since cretins booed the team for finishing 5th in the league. And many, many people scorned at qualifying for europe via the intertoto. Thats the sort of raised expectations that have been taken for granted, and is something you should think about, and is also their legacy or part of it.

 

You said yesterday that I was patronising. How else can I explain it ?? What I do take issue with though, is people who supported the club, or say they did, that don't appreciate how much better the club is, and I'm sorry but the only conclusion I can come to, is that they are lying when they claim this. Not one person I know, that actually is a long term supporter, denies that the club isn't miles better than they were when the Halls and Shepherd took over.

 

 

 

that is the first time you have ever written down clearly what you think, and feel. EVERY other time you have tried to put words into peoples mouths, made accusations about what you think they think, or what they want. If you had expressed yourself as you have in this post then you would have few arguments from me, or others.

 

My grouse with Hall and Shepherd began in 2003 n they seemed to take their eye off the ball. Up to then they had speculated to try and improve, then, for some reason they just started randomly increasing salaries, givinbg out 5 year contracts, randomly appointing managers, and not speculating to improve, but gambling to survive. That was the difference.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt staying in the top division was a major achievement, worthy of credit. I am old enough to appreciate this.  Every side in England has a new stadium, or vastly improved stadium, though, us having one doesn't Shepherd apart from the rest.

 

The last season under McKeag we lost £3m, on only £4.2m coming in to the club. The club spent £440,000 on new players. We also spent £300,000 getting rid of a Jim Smith. We had a wage bill of £2.6m. We had debts of £7m.

The reason I quote all these boring numbers is that if you multiply them all up it is essentially the state that Shepherd left the club in 16 years later. £32m loss on £87m income. Spent more than 10% of income on new players. Spent the same sort of percentage sacking the manager, again. Wages were 70% of income, debts of £70m. 

 

To me Shepherd has left the club with the same financial mess that John Hall inherited, we have had great fun along the way, many fortunes have been made, but looking at what he has passed to his successor, it is scarily similar to 1991. Just as it couldn't go on in 1991 it could not have continued in 2007.

 

We were fortunate to get Sir John, we have been unfortunate to get Mike Ashley. If Shepherd had stayed in charge there would have been no money to "speculate" cos there was nowhere to get the money from, it had all gone.

 

 

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before. Have you forgotten , because you replied to it, and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I really couldn't give a toss about those figures above. The simple fact is, the club was bankrupt in 1991, counldn't sell it for 2.5m quid, had one foot in the 3rd division, played in front of a cow shed masquerading as a football stadium and 15 years later, had qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, played in the Champions League, expanded the stadium to one of the best and biggest in the UK, and filled it, bought major international players instead of selling them, and was worth one of the highest valuations in the country through massively raising the profile of the club, is the legacy.

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

You're clueless. And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

One last point. You say we were "lucky to get Sir John". Well, Sir John was lucky to have Fletcher, Hall Jnr and Shepherd as his co-directors, because these were the people who were completely responsible for getting Keegan to the club first time round, when Sir John didn't want to change the manager and they almost threw him into his lap and forced him to sack Ardiles. Depending on who you believe, but  I tend to believe what Keegan says in his own book. Unless you think what we achieved would have happened with any old Charllie Bloggs as manager of the football team, such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

 

 

'Sir John lucky to have Fletcher..'

Sorry, NE5, I'm afraid that it was the other way round ; Fletcher was a FORMER exec at Rangers before he got involved in NUFC,and his initial brief was to sort out the club's Promotions/ Retail Op..

SJH placed a great deal of trust in him and gave him plenty of licence ..he made himself into a millionaire with SJH's help and, if you were able to ask SJH what happened in later years you would not get a very happy story...

Ask KD what HE thought of Fletcher....

As for complaining that SJH didn't want to sack Ardiles, yes, maybe he WAS misguided, but this club has been criticised for lack of stability on too many occasions ; KK had NO interference in his job when SJH was Chairman - can Shepherd  make that claim about his managers, esp SBR, when he sold Speed without Robson's approval ??

 

 

Fletcher had a very good go at shutting the fanzines down.

[macbeth]

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before.

 

Absolutely I did say that in 1998. But I also criticised Keegan for selling Andy Cole. It didn't mean I thought Keegan was a bad manager, it was just that one part of his management was something I didn't agree with. And there was no "etc". I just felt it was wrong for money to be taken out of the club that way. If I'd known ten years later that they would have given away £32m I would have been more angry than I was. I would be equally as angry if I found that Ashley had taken out £4m this summer, whereas I guess you wouldn't mind?

 

...... and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I suggested that Crozier, someone who may take a long term view, was the sort of person that could make an excellent club chairman. By the time you had spun it round in your head a few times you seemed convinced it was my answer to everything. This twisting is what turns so many off your arguments. It is why the nuggets of common sense, and vast club knowledge, you come out with so often get ignored.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I disappeared because I post on other boards. I returned because Shepherd had put himself back in the spotlight and claimed that he left the club in a good shape. I just wished to explain to those that may not have known that Shepherd left the club losing £600,000 every week, and with debts of £70m. I feel that his definition of "good shape" is different from that of many others.

I have no problem with him extolling the virtues of the team in 2003, but it was the club in 2007 he was handing over. 13th in the league, 5 points above relegation, huge debts, huge wages for under-performing players, annual management changes. That was what he passed on to his successor. If he had left in 2003 then his legacy would have been excellent. He didn't.

Was Roeder's legacy the first few games, the middle games or the rubbish at the end?

 

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

NO !! It is heading the way of Leeds precisely because it over spent, just the way Leeds did. Just as Leeds overspent sure of their own long term CL place, and then fell apart, so did Shepherd. He set out to pay CL wages to players when we were struggling to get us into the Intertoto. The only reason his buy buy buy policy stopped was because the club had run out of money. He couldn't spend £20m on a new player because there just wasn't £20m to be had. No one to borrow from, no sponsorship money, nothing. I really don't know how you expect any football team, that doesn't have an owner that puts in his own money, can just keep spending and spending at £9m per year more than they earn. It just doesn't work. Leeds found this out, and Shepherd had just hit the same wall.

 

You're clueless.

 

I bow to your greater knowledge and experience of such things

 

And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

I apologise to others for praising you earlier. You made this up, repeated as many times as you could, and now believe it to be true. As someone once said 'the plural of "lie" is not "fact".

 

...... such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

This isn't fantasy football. Or maybe it should be. In fantasy football they give you a budget and you have to stick to it. What Shepherd did was just spend £9m a year more than he had, every year. He completely ignored the real world and lived the dream. I appreciate you too wish to live the dream, and that having a few years of fun was fantastic. It is now being paid for by us all. 

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

I have, have you ?

 

[TRon]

NE5, you're probably right about a fair few things.  You just put it across in such a s*** way that no-one wants to concede any points to you at all, for fear that they'll just never hear the end of it with logic that goes "you said I was right once, that means you're always wrong".

 

Wouldn't say a fair few things, but his second from last post was very condescending.

 

Can't even be bothered to read his guff anymore, on any thread.

 

Obnoxious bastard.

The real shame of it all is that he thinks he's "winning" arguments with "facts" that no one wants to "dispute" when he drives people away like that.  The vicious cycle of delusion continues anew.

 

I don't bother contributing to these "discussions" much tbh. Presenting "facts" without context and ignoring all attempts to provide some is an agenda in reality. Waste of time.

[Delima]

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before.

 

Absolutely I did say that in 1998. But I also criticised Keegan for selling Andy Cole. It didn't mean I thought Keegan was a bad manager, it was just that one part of his management was something I didn't agree with. And there was no "etc". I just felt it was wrong for money to be taken out of the club that way. If I'd known ten years later that they would have given away £32m I would have been more angry than I was. I would be equally as angry if I found that Ashley had taken out £4m this summer, whereas I guess you wouldn't mind?

 

...... and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I suggested that Crozier, someone who may take a long term view, was the sort of person that could make an excellent club chairman. By the time you had spun it round in your head a few times you seemed convinced it was my answer to everything. This twisting is what turns so many off your arguments. It is why the nuggets of common sense, and vast club knowledge, you come out with so often get ignored.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I disappeared because I post on other boards. I returned because Shepherd had put himself back in the spotlight and claimed that he left the club in a good shape. I just wished to explain to those that may not have known that Shepherd left the club losing £600,000 every week, and with debts of £70m. I feel that his definition of "good shape" is different from that of many others.

I have no problem with him extolling the virtues of the team in 2003, but it was the club in 2007 he was handing over. 13th in the league, 5 points above relegation, huge debts, huge wages for under-performing players, annual management changes. That was what he passed on to his successor. If he had left in 2003 then his legacy would have been excellent. He didn't.

Was Roeder's legacy the first few games, the middle games or the rubbish at the end?

 

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

NO !! It is heading the way of Leeds precisely because it over spent, just the way Leeds did. Just as Leeds overspent sure of their own long term CL place, and then fell apart, so did Shepherd. He set out to pay CL wages to players when we were struggling to get us into the Intertoto. The only reason his buy buy buy policy stopped was because the club had run out of money. He couldn't spend £20m on a new player because there just wasn't £20m to be had. No one to borrow from, no sponsorship money, nothing. I really don't know how you expect any football team, that doesn't have an owner that puts in his own money, can just keep spending and spending at £9m per year more than they earn. It just doesn't work. Leeds found this out, and Shepherd had just hit the same wall.

 

You're clueless.

 

I bow to your greater knowledge and experience of such things

 

And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

I apologise to others for praising you earlier. You made this up, repeated as many times as you could, and now believe it to be true. As someone once said 'the plural of "lie" is not "fact".

 

...... such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

This isn't fantasy football. Or maybe it should be. In fantasy football they give you a budget and you have to stick to it. What Shepherd did was just spend £9m a year more than he had, every year. He completely ignored the real world and lived the dream. I appreciate you too wish to live the dream, and that having a few years of fun was fantastic. It is now being paid for by us all. 

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

I have, have you ?

 

 

Unsurprisingly - NE5 being completely floored again. What a condescending idiot - worse still being patronising for the wrong facts and lies !!

[mrmojorisin75]

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before.

 

Absolutely I did say that in 1998. But I also criticised Keegan for selling Andy Cole. It didn't mean I thought Keegan was a bad manager, it was just that one part of his management was something I didn't agree with. And there was no "etc". I just felt it was wrong for money to be taken out of the club that way. If I'd known ten years later that they would have given away £32m I would have been more angry than I was. I would be equally as angry if I found that Ashley had taken out £4m this summer, whereas I guess you wouldn't mind?

 

...... and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I suggested that Crozier, someone who may take a long term view, was the sort of person that could make an excellent club chairman. By the time you had spun it round in your head a few times you seemed convinced it was my answer to everything. This twisting is what turns so many off your arguments. It is why the nuggets of common sense, and vast club knowledge, you come out with so often get ignored.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I disappeared because I post on other boards. I returned because Shepherd had put himself back in the spotlight and claimed that he left the club in a good shape. I just wished to explain to those that may not have known that Shepherd left the club losing £600,000 every week, and with debts of £70m. I feel that his definition of "good shape" is different from that of many others.

I have no problem with him extolling the virtues of the team in 2003, but it was the club in 2007 he was handing over. 13th in the league, 5 points above relegation, huge debts, huge wages for under-performing players, annual management changes. That was what he passed on to his successor. If he had left in 2003 then his legacy would have been excellent. He didn't.

Was Roeder's legacy the first few games, the middle games or the rubbish at the end?

 

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

NO !! It is heading the way of Leeds precisely because it over spent, just the way Leeds did. Just as Leeds overspent sure of their own long term CL place, and then fell apart, so did Shepherd. He set out to pay CL wages to players when we were struggling to get us into the Intertoto. The only reason his buy buy buy policy stopped was because the club had run out of money. He couldn't spend £20m on a new player because there just wasn't £20m to be had. No one to borrow from, no sponsorship money, nothing. I really don't know how you expect any football team, that doesn't have an owner that puts in his own money, can just keep spending and spending at £9m per year more than they earn. It just doesn't work. Leeds found this out, and Shepherd had just hit the same wall.

 

You're clueless.

 

I bow to your greater knowledge and experience of such things

 

And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

I apologise to others for praising you earlier. You made this up, repeated as many times as you could, and now believe it to be true. As someone once said 'the plural of "lie" is not "fact".

 

...... such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

This isn't fantasy football. Or maybe it should be. In fantasy football they give you a budget and you have to stick to it. What Shepherd did was just spend £9m a year more than he had, every year. He completely ignored the real world and lived the dream. I appreciate you too wish to live the dream, and that having a few years of fun was fantastic. It is now being paid for by us all. 

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

I have, have you ?

 

 

Unsurprisingly - NE5 being completely floored again. What a condescending idiot - worse still being patronising for the wrong facts and lies !!

 

he's not an idiot, to say he is demeans you

 

he's like someone out of catch 22, he has a small unmistakable line of reason that can't be disputed no matter how hard anyone tries

 

that niche of reason protects him from the elements of rationality and reason but it's hard to argue against

 

cut short he's a patter merchant

[fredbob]

You're a liar.

 

You wrote a piece in the mag in 1998, around the time of the FA Cup Final, whinging on about dividends etc. I quoted this once before.

 

Absolutely I did say that in 1998. But I also criticised Keegan for selling Andy Cole. It didn't mean I thought Keegan was a bad manager, it was just that one part of his management was something I didn't agree with. And there was no "etc". I just felt it was wrong for money to be taken out of the club that way. If I'd known ten years later that they would have given away £32m I would have been more angry than I was. I would be equally as angry if I found that Ashley had taken out £4m this summer, whereas I guess you wouldn't mind?

 

...... and also harped on about your moronic support of that cretin Adam Crozier and how he would be the "ideal" chairman of the club.

 

I suggested that Crozier, someone who may take a long term view, was the sort of person that could make an excellent club chairman. By the time you had spun it round in your head a few times you seemed convinced it was my answer to everything. This twisting is what turns so many off your arguments. It is why the nuggets of common sense, and vast club knowledge, you come out with so often get ignored.

 

I have ALWAYS said, and said it often, that the Halls and Shepherd left the club miles better than how they found it. If you weren't so obsessed with reading your balance sheets, and concentrating on the football which happens to be the industry that we are in, you would have seen it.

 

The fact that you have disappeared for all this time, and re-appeared talking yet again about nothing but finance should tell its own story.

 

I disappeared because I post on other boards. I returned because Shepherd had put himself back in the spotlight and claimed that he left the club in a good shape. I just wished to explain to those that may not have known that Shepherd left the club losing £600,000 every week, and with debts of £70m. I feel that his definition of "good shape" is different from that of many others.

I have no problem with him extolling the virtues of the team in 2003, but it was the club in 2007 he was handing over. 13th in the league, 5 points above relegation, huge debts, huge wages for under-performing players, annual management changes. That was what he passed on to his successor. If he had left in 2003 then his legacy would have been excellent. He didn't.

Was Roeder's legacy the first few games, the middle games or the rubbish at the end?

 

 

By the way, you have constantly whinged on about the club "doing a Leeds", through overspending. Well, the club is now heading the way of Leeds, and its for the opposite reason to your claims. Its heading that way because of underinvestment on players. Even you should find this slightly ironic. I'm sure a smart lad like you will recognise the irony of this..............

 

NO !! It is heading the way of Leeds precisely because it over spent, just the way Leeds did. Just as Leeds overspent sure of their own long term CL place, and then fell apart, so did Shepherd. He set out to pay CL wages to players when we were struggling to get us into the Intertoto. The only reason his buy buy buy policy stopped was because the club had run out of money. He couldn't spend £20m on a new player because there just wasn't £20m to be had. No one to borrow from, no sponsorship money, nothing. I really don't know how you expect any football team, that doesn't have an owner that puts in his own money, can just keep spending and spending at £9m per year more than they earn. It just doesn't work. Leeds found this out, and Shepherd had just hit the same wall.

 

You're clueless.

 

I bow to your greater knowledge and experience of such things

 

And you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, just because the ex board refused you a say in the running of the football club, which is a strange demand to put it mildly.

 

I apologise to others for praising you earlier. You made this up, repeated as many times as you could, and now believe it to be true. As someone once said 'the plural of "lie" is not "fact".

 

...... such is your apparent view that the "business plan" and the balance sheet come first.

 

This isn't fantasy football. Or maybe it should be. In fantasy football they give you a budget and you have to stick to it. What Shepherd did was just spend £9m a year more than he had, every year. He completely ignored the real world and lived the dream. I appreciate you too wish to live the dream, and that having a few years of fun was fantastic. It is now being paid for by us all. 

 

You really couldn't make this up. Someone else who has learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

I have, have you ?

 

 

Unsurprisingly - NE5 being completely floored again. What a condescending idiot - worse still being patronising for the wrong facts and lies !!

 

Aye but we qualified for Europe more times than any team bar 4, so that makes it alright. The fact that its pretty safe to say we wouldnt of qualified for CL again under Shepherd and therefore get back on financial track is irrelevant.

 

Keep up.

[ChezGiven]

Ok, I’ve had a quick look at the accounts….

 

Re the season ticket money being received pre or post the accounts date – I think it’s a bit of both! The deferred income (excluding capital grants – government cash) (cash received in advance in effect) is £25 million, of which £10 million is sponsorship money (2 years of £5m each) if we believe that 100% of the money was received up front – this would also account for the £5m fall from 2006.

 

There is also a little bit of bond and corporate money in there – probably only a million or so, therefore we will ignore it, leaving c. £15 million season ticket money. Lets assume an average season ticket price of £400, with 48,000 tickets sold = £19 million.

 

So either some of the season ticket money had been received by the end of June or the club had not received any money for the final 2 years of the Northern Rock deal. Based on the dot cock numbers I think the average ticket price used may be a bit low, as it assumes an even number of child and adult tickets. It would be fair to assume that half of the season ticket money had not been received – There would also be another £3 million ticket money to be received during the year for general sale tickets and away fans (4,000 tickets at £35 each for 19 games). I have taken no cup games into account here.

 

Re the going concern, I was correct in my assumption that the auditors make no comment on this – although it is implied that they agree with Chris Mort’s comments in the director’s report by stating in their opinion that the report is accurate.

 

Basically the club does have net liabilities – and did so in the previous year as well. Eventually the club would have become insolvent if they continued to make losses, but this was not necessarily imminent!

 

Chris Mort makes reference on the cash injection (£75 million) from SJP Holdings making the club a ‘going concern’ (basically the club will be solvent for a period of more than 12 months). However from this only £45m (!) was only needed to ensure this as the change in ownership resulted in £45 million of loans originally due over a period of 11 years becoming due in 60 days. So if Ashley hadn’t bought the club this would not have occurred and the cash injection would not have been needed. The remainder of the injection was at Mikes discretion - he did not need to do this to keep the club afloat.

 

So, in summary the club was not about to go into administration last summer if we had not been bought out! On the other hand there is no doubting that the accounts will look a lot better this year.

 

The other interesting thing was the £3 million spent on refinancing projects which were aborted due to the takeover. This is a lot of money to be spent on this type of thing unless it was pretty much secured (imo of course). I would guess that it was to do with the casino and hotels which were mooted by Fred – and maybe he did have the outside finance in place which he claimed.

 

I know it’s a bit of a ramble, but if anyone wants me to clarify any specific point please shout

 

 

Just a reminder for those incapable of following complex arguments what the highly experienced and qualified accountant who reviewed the accounts thinks about this question.

 

Given SP60'sH's comments (mate you really need a new name!), dont think anyone has been floored at all in this debate. I think his "professional" opinion is very clear, backs what i thought at the time and does not support the doomsday merchants.

[macbeth]

Aye but we qualified for Europe more times than any team bar 4, so that makes it alright. The fact that its pretty safe to say we wouldnt of qualified for CL again under Shepherd and therefore get back on financial track is irrelevant.

 

Keep up.

 

for a while we also had the top average finishing position outside some other teams. The list of other teams we have to ignore is increasing all the time. 4 top half finishes in 11 years of success ?