afar Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Trust me, you've made comments far worse than 'favourite chairman' about other people. Personally I think Ashley may be on mind-altering substance of some kind. I have no idea what he's playing at, really. Ultimately we have little say over who the owners are ever replaced by, I think that's pretty clear. I've trimmed all of that. You're right about the owners, of course. YOu might also be right about Ashley, maybe he's always been something. Who knows. What really bothers me now, is that this season could turn out to be an absolute disaster. Ashley wanting the figure he's been quoted as wanting is nonsense, he'lll never get that. And as we struggle the price goes down, and if we get relegated, it will dive. He should take the best offer he can get as soon as he can. He lost his chance to restore stability, goodwill and a better prospects last week. I don''t care who the chairman/owner is, so long as he has the good of the club at heart, and understands that the whole heart of the football club begins with having quality players in the dressing room, and he has to back his chosen manager, and if you want to be like the other big clubs then you have to act like they do. Good post, I don't think you'll find any right-minded Newcastle United fan who will disagree with any of that. Fuck off Dave are you calling me not right-minded, I have a huge problem with this line, he clearly left in the previous quote from Elbee !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Did shepherd do a good job of running the club? Most of the time. Has Ashley done a good job of running the club? Not particularly. I am not a fan of Ashley at all. But I'm amazed you say "yes/no" about Shepherd and "not particularly" about Ashley ? Shepherd made losses of £114m as the person in chare of the club, left £70m debt, left a club losing £32m a year, left the club as close to adminstration, and therefore relegation as anyone could possible do. I really struggle to see the "yes" bit in there. Ashley looks to have put exactly the same amouny of his own money buying players, and improving the squad as Shepherd did, to the penny. He has matched Shepherd's hiring and firing of managers, the absolutely key thing for the board to do. He has been hopeless at PR, in that he just never did it at all. This compares with Shepherd who was fantastic at PR, even if everything he said was lies. As far as we know at the moment Ashley has taken no money out of the club, which would make him different from Shepherd & Hall. The thing is I don't really see this as a plus for Ashley, at all. I don't expect my owner to bleed the club dry. NE5 got it absolutely spot on with his "I don''t care who the chairman is, so long as he has the good of the club at heart, and understands that the whole heart of the football club begins with having quality players in the dressing room, and he has to back his chosen manager, and if you want to be like the other big clubs then you have to act like they do. " That has to be the way we all feel, that is the way who ever the chairman is should be. The difference, as ever, between NE5 and me is that I think Shepherd & Hall extracting £34m worth of cash from the club, and then running it to the point where it was about to go bust was a hugely short term view. The bit I'd add on the end of NE5's desire, would be something along the lines of "and the club should still exist in 5 years time". Spend, spend, spend to be like the big clubs was the Leeds way. Don't spend, don't' spend, don't spend to survive, was the Norwich way. The extremes don't work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest f***thepress Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Only diff between Shepherd n Ashley ..Shepherds a little taller.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? Personally, i reckon NE5 would be my choice for a pint and a banter over any other moron on this forum, including me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest f***thepress Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Shepherd is a businessman with a learning disability ...Ashley is his idiot younger brother... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Yeah, it seems all these chairmen/owners we've had for the past 40 years have all been useless. When are we going to stick is what i want to know? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? Personally, i reckon NE5 would be my choice for a pint and a banter over any other moron on this forum, including me. aww..shucks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp40 Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 ffs, have you lads been up all night on this one?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? Personally, i reckon NE5 would be my choice for a pint and a banter over any other moron on this forum, including me. aww..shucks watch out NE5. it smells like an ambush Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? The whole "industry" is in a mess? I really don't care whether Leeds go bust, or Liverpool can't finance a stadium, or the state of others. NUFC had £19m in the bank in July last year. We had borrowed against everything, ground, training ground, future season ticket, sponsorship money there was no where else to get cash from. The banks were lending to us at 13% we were such a bad risk. The £19m would have paid the wages for 4 months, then what ? We wouldn't have been able to pay players, we wouldn't have been able to buy goods to sell itn he club shop, we wouldn't be able to pay the police to stage games, we wouldn't be able to pay hotels to put players up for away games, we wouldn't be able to pay visiting teams their share of the gate receipts. We would have gone bust. I''ve just re-read all that and it sounds over the top, and wil raise the question "why is it different fomr any other season". Well the answer to that is that things deteriorated hugely in 2006 onwards. I hate to shwo graphs but I will cos it highlights the way things spun out of control as Shepherd chased his dream, and ran the club into a mess ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/2007/assets14.gif So up to 2005 he coudl always borrow more, as peopel knew we had asssets. By 2007 we didn't have any assets. no more borrowing. The end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? The whole "industry" is in a mess? I really don't care whether Leeds go bust, or Liverpool can't finance a stadium, or the state of others. NUFC had £19m in the bank in July last year. We had borrowed against everything, ground, training ground, future season ticket, sponsorship money there was no where else to get cash from. The banks were lending to us at 13% we were such a bad risk. The £19m would have paid the wages for 4 months, then what ? We wouldn't have been able to pay players, we wouldn't have been able to buy goods to sell itn he club shop, we wouldn't be able to pay the police to stage games, we wouldn't be able to pay hotels to put players up for away games, we wouldn't be able to pay visiting teams their share of the gate receipts. We would have gone bust. I''ve just re-read all that and it sounds over the top, and wil raise the question "why is it different fomr any other season". Well the answer to that is that things deteriorated hugely in 2006 onwards. I hate to shwo graphs but I will cos it highlights the way things spun out of control as Shepherd chased his dream, and ran the club into a mess ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/2007/assets14.gif So up to 2005 he coudl always borrow more, as peopel knew we had asssets. By 2007 we didn't have any assets. no more borrowing. The end. you've been forecasting this for 10 years. At the end of the day, you still don't answer what he asked you. And I don't particularly think Liverpool fans care about Newcastle either, while they cream off trophies and we concentrate on being the only club in a good situation, according to you that is. If the club do what you want, and stop competing with the other clubs that want to win things ie as it has done in the past 16 months or so, then less and less people will bother watching them any more. The end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? The whole "industry" is in a mess? I really don't care whether Leeds go bust, or Liverpool can't finance a stadium, or the state of others. NUFC had £19m in the bank in July last year. We had borrowed against everything, ground, training ground, future season ticket, sponsorship money there was no where else to get cash from. The banks were lending to us at 13% we were such a bad risk. The £19m would have paid the wages for 4 months, then what ? We wouldn't have been able to pay players, we wouldn't have been able to buy goods to sell itn he club shop, we wouldn't be able to pay the police to stage games, we wouldn't be able to pay hotels to put players up for away games, we wouldn't be able to pay visiting teams their share of the gate receipts. We would have gone bust. I''ve just re-read all that and it sounds over the top, and wil raise the question "why is it different fomr any other season". Well the answer to that is that things deteriorated hugely in 2006 onwards. I hate to shwo graphs but I will cos it highlights the way things spun out of control as Shepherd chased his dream, and ran the club into a mess ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/2007/assets14.gif So up to 2005 he coudl always borrow more, as peopel knew we had asssets. By 2007 we didn't have any assets. no more borrowing. The end. Thats where the refinancing of debts comes into play. Anyone involved in the football industry knew that TV revenues were about to shoot up and the (virtual) certainty is that the TV rights across Asia etc are about to be opened up in favour of the clubs. Add on the expected (overdue) utilisation of the internet for rights and you have some very strong forward income streams. Now bear in mind Ashley came in pre Credit Crunch. There would have been plenty of willing lenders in those circumstances. It would have been costly yes, but its wrong to say that we couldn't borrow any more. All it would have taken is one good/lucky season to break the top 4 again and the clubs finances would have been a lot healthier. Shepherd needed this season to happen quickly, hence he was prepared to gamble on high transfer fees and wages, eventually though he would reach a dead end with this if the top 4 was not reached. Ashley on the other hand was prepared to bide his time and build up from the youth team, his barrier would be different to Shepherds as within a short space of time the fans would turn on this policy if the first team was not performing. Get a hybrid Shepherd/Ashley figure in and you've got a winner. Unfortunately there aint that many of these about Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Superb post mate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 you've been forecasting this for 10 years. On my web site, before I had internet access, or any means of getting to club accounts ?! I was very clever precocious At the end of the day, you still don't answer what he asked you. What did he ask, I've missed it. Really, I will answer, I don't avoid questions, ever. Which is why I have so many boring answers. And I don't particularly think Liverpool fans care about Newcastle either, while they cream off trophies and we concentrate on being the only club in a good situation, according to you that is. Liverpool have invested their money in players and the manager. We have invested borrowed money in players and manager pay-offs. If the club do what you want, and stop competing with the other clubs that want to win things ie as it has done in the past 16 months or so, then less and less people will bother watching them any more. But we couldn't get any more money to invest. Shepherd had run out of means of getting money. His last loan was at 13% interest, when everyone else was borrowing at 7-8%, for God's sake. We couldn't spend anymore money cos there just wasn't any more money to spend. If you had a £300,000 mortgage, and a £70,000 credit card bill and huge household bills, people would eventually stop lending you money. That is what was happening to NUFC. I understand the speculate to accumulate, Shepherd did it wonderfully up to 2003, then greed took over. Gambled on CL entry by not investing, and everything spiraled out of control. From speculating on getting in to the CL league within a year we had to gamble to just avoid relegation The end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 According to this only us, west brom and Spurs outside of the top four are making a profit. So how do all the other teams spend more than us without getting into the same situation we did? I haven't heard of any other clubs fearing going bust. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/2968287/Credit-crunch-How-Premier-League-teams-will-be-affected--Football.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 According to this only us, west brom and Spurs outside of the top four are making a profit. So how do all the other teams spend more than us without getting into the same situation we did? I haven't heard of any other clubs fearing going bust. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/2968287/Credit-crunch-How-Premier-League-teams-will-be-affected--Football.html The key is that they are showing profit BEFORE player trading. Essentially it suggests that we have a net £2.6 million a year to spend. It could of course exclude other 'paper' costs which yu would need to factor into a longer term view Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 According to this only us, west brom and Spurs outside of the top four are making a profit. So how do all the other teams spend more than us without getting into the same situation we did? I haven't heard of any other clubs fearing going bust. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/2968287/Credit-crunch-How-Premier-League-teams-will-be-affected--Football.html The key is that they are showing profit BEFORE player trading. Essentially it suggests that we have a net £2.6 million a year to spend. It could of course exclude other 'paper' costs which yu would need to factor into a longer term view Well exactly. Nearly every team in the league are running at a loss before player trading and then nearly every club in the league go and spend more than us on transfers. How can this be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Thats where the refinancing of debts comes into play. Anyone involved in the football industry knew that TV revenues were about to shoot up and the (virtual) certainty is that the TV rights across Asia etc are about to be opened up in favour of the clubs. Add on the expected (overdue) utilisation of the internet for rights and you have some very strong forward income streams. Yes I understand the refinancing. The problem was the club had already borrowed money against the future Sky revenue. The accounts were in a mess cos we'd already spent the next season Sky money, the next season's season ticket money, the next season's sponsorship money. When it came to the refinancing of the debt there was nothing to guarantee the payments against. Now bear in mind Ashley came in pre Credit Crunch. There would have been plenty of willing lenders in those circumstances. It would have been costly yes, but its wrong to say that we couldn't borrow any more. He was a different person to Shepherd, yes he could get to money. When he complains about paying off debts he is being disingenuous. The club now has no debts, or negligible debts, because he paid them off. If he had the cash, then this was ideal for the club. The annual interest payments disappeared so the day-to-day running of the club wasn't being weighed down by these payments. The on-goign reduction for NUFC was probably ~£8m per year. This is brilliant for the club, but was Ashley's choice to do. Shepherd never put any money in to the club, from before 1998, so he couldn't personally reduce the debts he had racked up for NUFC. With no debts Ashley could have borrowed more. Shepherd & Hall had huge debts and no way to refinance. All it would have taken is one good/lucky season to break the top 4 again and the clubs finances would have been a lot healthier. Shepherd needed this season to happen quickly, hence he was prepared to gamble on high transfer fees and wages, eventually though he would reach a dead end with this if the top 4 was not reached. We hit the dead end summer 2007. Ashley on the other hand was prepared to bide his time and build up from the youth team, his barrier would be different to Shepherds as within a short space of time the fans would turn on this policy if the first team was not performing. Get a hybrid Shepherd/Ashley figure in and you've got a winner. Unfortunately there aint that many of these about None !? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 According to this only us, west brom and Spurs outside of the top four are making a profit. So how do all the other teams spend more than us without getting into the same situation we did? I haven't heard of any other clubs fearing going bust. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/2968287/Credit-crunch-How-Premier-League-teams-will-be-affected--Football.html The key is that they are showing profit BEFORE player trading. Essentially it suggests that we have a net £2.6 million a year to spend. It could of course exclude other 'paper' costs which yu would need to factor into a longer term view Well exactly. Nearly every team in the league are running at a loss before player trading and then nearly every club in the league go and spend more than us on transfers. How can this be? cos they are gambling the way Shepherd did. They also have tiny wages compared to ours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Get a hybrid Shepherd/Ashley figure in and you've got a winner. Unfortunately there aint that many of these about http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6212/article002ac4bd80000057nr9.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomson Mouse Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? Personally, i reckon NE5 would be my choice for a pint and a banter over any other moron on this forum, including me. I suppose it depends on whether you want to stand around drinking with someone who would jump around manically waving their arms in the air shouting "I told you so" at the top of their voice, while also telling anyone within earshot that you really do believe him but won't admit it. No thanks, I'd rather stick blunt pencils in my eyes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? Personally, i reckon NE5 would be my choice for a pint and a banter over any other moron on this forum, including me. I suppose it depends on whether you want to stand around drinking with someone who would jump around manically waving their arms in the air shouting "I told you so" at the top of their voice, while also telling anyone within earshot that you really do believe him but won't admit it. No thanks, I'd rather stick blunt pencils in my eyes. your making things up again thats a bad habit, it affects your ability to make sound judgements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieMandias Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? The whole "industry" is in a mess? I really don't care whether Leeds go bust, or Liverpool can't finance a stadium, or the state of others. NUFC had £19m in the bank in July last year. We had borrowed against everything, ground, training ground, future season ticket, sponsorship money there was no where else to get cash from. The banks were lending to us at 13% we were such a bad risk. The £19m would have paid the wages for 4 months, then what ? We wouldn't have been able to pay players, we wouldn't have been able to buy goods to sell itn he club shop, we wouldn't be able to pay the police to stage games, we wouldn't be able to pay hotels to put players up for away games, we wouldn't be able to pay visiting teams their share of the gate receipts. We would have gone bust. I''ve just re-read all that and it sounds over the top, and wil raise the question "why is it different fomr any other season". Well the answer to that is that things deteriorated hugely in 2006 onwards. I hate to shwo graphs but I will cos it highlights the way things spun out of control as Shepherd chased his dream, and ran the club into a mess ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/2007/assets14.gif So up to 2005 he coudl always borrow more, as peopel knew we had asssets. By 2007 we didn't have any assets. no more borrowing. The end. Thats where the refinancing of debts comes into play. Anyone involved in the football industry knew that TV revenues were about to shoot up and the (virtual) certainty is that the TV rights across Asia etc are about to be opened up in favour of the clubs. Add on the expected (overdue) utilisation of the internet for rights and you have some very strong forward income streams. Now bear in mind Ashley came in pre Credit Crunch. There would have been plenty of willing lenders in those circumstances. It would have been costly yes, but its wrong to say that we couldn't borrow any more. All it would have taken is one good/lucky season to break the top 4 again and the clubs finances would have been a lot healthier. Shepherd needed this season to happen quickly, hence he was prepared to gamble on high transfer fees and wages, eventually though he would reach a dead end with this if the top 4 was not reached. Ashley on the other hand was prepared to bide his time and build up from the youth team, his barrier would be different to Shepherds as within a short space of time the fans would turn on this policy if the first team was not performing. Get a hybrid Shepherd/Ashley figure in and you've got a winner. Unfortunately there aint that many of these about Oh, is that all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Macbeth, i replied to you, do me the favour? You still imply that we were on the brink of financial disaster but dont deal with the fact that every other club in the premiership was in the same boat. How do you explain that? The whole "industry" is in a mess? I really don't care whether Leeds go bust, or Liverpool can't finance a stadium, or the state of others. NUFC had £19m in the bank in July last year. We had borrowed against everything, ground, training ground, future season ticket, sponsorship money there was no where else to get cash from. The banks were lending to us at 13% we were such a bad risk. The £19m would have paid the wages for 4 months, then what ? We wouldn't have been able to pay players, we wouldn't have been able to buy goods to sell itn he club shop, we wouldn't be able to pay the police to stage games, we wouldn't be able to pay hotels to put players up for away games, we wouldn't be able to pay visiting teams their share of the gate receipts. We would have gone bust. I''ve just re-read all that and it sounds over the top, and wil raise the question "why is it different fomr any other season". Well the answer to that is that things deteriorated hugely in 2006 onwards. I hate to shwo graphs but I will cos it highlights the way things spun out of control as Shepherd chased his dream, and ran the club into a mess ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/2007/assets14.gif So up to 2005 he coudl always borrow more, as peopel knew we had asssets. By 2007 we didn't have any assets. no more borrowing. The end. Thats where the refinancing of debts comes into play. Anyone involved in the football industry knew that TV revenues were about to shoot up and the (virtual) certainty is that the TV rights across Asia etc are about to be opened up in favour of the clubs. Add on the expected (overdue) utilisation of the internet for rights and you have some very strong forward income streams. Now bear in mind Ashley came in pre Credit Crunch. There would have been plenty of willing lenders in those circumstances. It would have been costly yes, but its wrong to say that we couldn't borrow any more. All it would have taken is one good/lucky season to break the top 4 again and the clubs finances would have been a lot healthier. Shepherd needed this season to happen quickly, hence he was prepared to gamble on high transfer fees and wages, eventually though he would reach a dead end with this if the top 4 was not reached. Ashley on the other hand was prepared to bide his time and build up from the youth team, his barrier would be different to Shepherds as within a short space of time the fans would turn on this policy if the first team was not performing. Get a hybrid Shepherd/Ashley figure in and you've got a winner. Unfortunately there aint that many of these about Oh, is that all? Aye, simple this chairman lark. Can't see what the fuss is all about Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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