Shepherd Legacy

[Thespence]

Anyone know if Asleys figures are correct?

 

As for Shepherd are we not glad he got the Northern Rock money up front? Cos I reckon we would be getting fuck all now. I thought Michael Owen was a good signing at the time.

 

Anyway, Ashley has come in paid part off the debt off & looks like he is now asking for the money he paid for the club, plus the money he has paid off the debt & wants to make huge profit on the back of that. If he has spent nearly a quarter of billion & he has been here a year good ol Mike should writ off £20 million off what he has spent & be asking £230 million.

 

If the Arabs knew out about how Ashley operates they should wait a few weeks & he will no doubt be selling the club for 70% off RRP.

[Guest elbee909]

standby for an NE5 yawnfest

 

no, it wasn't me who started this thread.

 

It's quite amazing that you still haven't seen the blatantly obvious, after the events of the last 2 weeks.

 

 

What's amazing to me - well, not really - is that because I think your same-old, same-old posts are a bit yawnsome, you assume I think the opposite of everything you think.  Well, I don't, but your crowing doesn't do you any favours.  I don't necessarily disagree with everything you ever say, but you keep on attributing that to me if it helps you sleep at night.

 

well, thats what I said about macbeth, who has suddenly re-surfaced after months away. Is that any different, or is it because you agree with him and not me - assuming you STILL don't get the idea yet.

 

 

Assume whatever you like.  Why break the habit of a lifetime?

 

the balls in your court. Tell macbeth he posts the same old repetitive bollocks - which he does. Coming back after all this time, how sad is that 

 

 

 

Well, if he has it's only to refute Shepherd, not you.

 

Macbeth, stop posting the same old stuff!  Even if it's for reference rather than continually having a go at Mick which is a lot more worthy.

[Mick]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

[GM]

Fat Fred over Fat Mike anyday.

 

What a revolting thought. Still whatever floats your boat. Take it you'll be the one with the camera?

[Spider Jerusalem]

What will happen when/if Ashley sells up, will we have an old board/older board/new board debate ?

 

It will open up a rip in the time / space continuum that the creators of the Large Hadron Collider could only dream of

[GM]

A truly great effort at "competing" for Hearts, on a annual income of £10m ....

 

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hearts/debt2.5.gif

 

haha, who gives a shit about Scottish rubbish  mackems.gif

 

I think macbeth is trying to allude to the sort of nightmare financial situation clubs can find themselves in when they are stuck (through no fault of their own) with an owner/chairman who has no real interest in the club or whose motives for owning the club are not entirely football focussed...

[Guest johnson293]

What will happen when/if Ashley sells up, will we have an old board/older board/new board debate ?

 

It will open up a rip in the time / space continuum that the creators of the Large Hadron Collider could only dream of 

 

mackems.gif 

[macbeth]

Macbeth just pulls figures out of his arse, always has done.

 

Just because he then runs those figures through Chart Wizard doesnt mean the original figures are correct.

 

I will happily take down any of the figures I have quoted if you can show me where they are wrong. If any of those numbers are wrong then Shepherd will not be allowed to be a company director as he signed the accounts and gave them to Companies House. They don't like being lied to.

 

Over to you, find me one, and I'll happily apologise, otherwsie I'll assume that really you accept them, and were just making your comment for a laugh.

[NE5]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

 

wish I'd put a bet on that you'd say that  mackems.gif

 

You now have a club without a fat bastard in charge that doesn't embarrass you.

 

A few mediocre teams might embarrass you instead though. Just like your good old days. 

 

 

[Dave]

[NE5]

A truly great effort at "competing" for Hearts, on a annual income of £10m ....

 

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hearts/debt2.5.gif

 

haha, who gives a shit about Scottish rubbish  mackems.gif

 

I think macbeth is trying to allude to the sort of nightmare financial situation clubs can find themselves in when they are stuck (through no fault of their own) with an owner/chairman who has no real interest in the club or whose motives for owning the club are not entirely football focussed...

 

no, that can't be right. The only club thats ever had directors like that is Newcastle. Even when we were playing in europe, and reaching the FA Cup Final he was whinging on in The Mag about directors at the club taking dividends of a few hundred grand a year or whatever the hell it was. Then saying football is a business......

 

He thinks relegation is a price to pay for having a good balance sheet. He must think that 52000 crowds would still support the club if we were relegated. Oh dear.

 

Thats my last word on this GM, I've been through all this before with him, his sudden re-appearance speaks volumes.

 

 

[Thomson Mouse]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

 

wish I'd put a bet on that you'd say that  mackems.gif

 

You now have a club without a fat b****** in charge that doesn't embarrass you.

 

A few mediocre teams might embarrass you instead though. Just like your good old days. 

 

 

 

As much as I disagree with you on this point, why do you have to come across as such an abrasive, arrogant tosser when you reply?

 

Try to answer that question only.

[NE5]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

 

wish I'd put a bet on that you'd say that  mackems.gif

 

You now have a club without a fat b****** in charge that doesn't embarrass you.

 

A few mediocre teams might embarrass you instead though. Just like your good old days. 

 

 

As much as I disagree with you on this point, why do you have to come across as such an abrasive, arrogant tosser when you reply?

 

Try to answer that question only.

 

you mean that I'm right and you can't see it or bring yourself to admit it ?

 

I think those who can't see the blatantly obvious, and ignore factual information that doesn't suit their "opinion", are tossers.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the club hasn't embarrassed you in the last 2 weeks ?

 

It's embarrassed me, more than for many years. I wouldn't really be arsed, but the sad thing is, the only way they are going on the field is headlong into a relegation fight that may be lost unless the soopa new owner abandons his so called "plan" or buggers off and sells to someone who knows something about football. And that DOES bother me.

 

 

[Thomson Mouse]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

 

wish I'd put a bet on that you'd say that  mackems.gif

 

You now have a club without a fat b****** in charge that doesn't embarrass you.

 

A few mediocre teams might embarrass you instead though. Just like your good old days. 

 

 

As much as I disagree with you on this point, why do you have to come across as such an abrasive, arrogant tosser when you reply?

 

Try to answer that question only.

 

you mean that I'm right and you can't see it or bring yourself to admit it ?

 

I think those who can't see the blatantly obvious, and ignore factual information that doesn't suit their "opinion", are tossers.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the club hasn't embarrassed you in the last 2 weeks ?

 

It's embarrassed me, more than for many years. I wouldn't really be arsed, but the sad thing is, the only way they are going on the field is headlong into a relegation fight that may be lost unless the soopa new owner abandons his so called "plan" or buggers off and sells to someone who knows something about football. And that DOES bother me.

 

 

 

 

No, I mean that you come across as an over excited, abrasive, arrogant, tosspot when you've replied to the posts on this thread.  After reading it, you have pissed me off far more with your attitude than your actual viewpoint.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

why do you have to come across as such an abrasive, arrogant tosser when you reply?

 

you mean that I'm right and you can't see it or bring yourself to admit it ?

 

 

Quality, in an entertaining way

[Mick]

 

Quality, in an entertaining way

 

It is and he'll not be able to see it.

[Mr Logic]

 

All the figures quoted here are from Newcastle United club accounts issued by the club, or registered with Companies House.

 

 

 

I think those who can't see the blatantly obvious, and ignore factual information that doesn't suit their "opinion", are tossers.

 

 

errm, club accounts or Companies House records doesn't constitute factual information?

 

 

 

 

Macbeth just pulls figures out of his arse, always has done.

 

 

And what's with you? You're more intelligent than that, I've noticed a few of your posts of late have just been insulting with no other content. He's quoted his sources, why don't you refute them if you know different?

 

 

[levelsevenlee]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

 

wish I'd put a bet on that you'd say that  mackems.gif

 

You now have a club without a fat b****** in charge that doesn't embarrass you.

 

A few mediocre teams might embarrass you instead though. Just like your good old days. 

 

 

As much as I disagree with you on this point, why do you have to come across as such an abrasive, arrogant tosser when you reply?

 

Try to answer that question only.

 

you mean that I'm right and you can't see it or bring yourself to admit it ?

I think those who can't see the blatantly obvious, and ignore factual information that doesn't suit their "opinion", are tossers.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the club hasn't embarrassed you in the last 2 weeks ?

 

It's embarrassed me, more than for many years. I wouldn't really be arsed, but the sad thing is, the only way they are going on the field is headlong into a relegation fight that may be lost unless the soopa new owner abandons his so called "plan" or buggers off and sells to someone who knows something about football. And that DOES bother me.

 

 

 

So what would that make you for continuing to ignore Macbeth's analysis based on facts and data submitted to Companies House?

[NE5]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

 

wish I'd put a bet on that you'd say that  mackems.gif

 

You now have a club without a fat b****** in charge that doesn't embarrass you.

 

A few mediocre teams might embarrass you instead though. Just like your good old days. 

 

 

As much as I disagree with you on this point, why do you have to come across as such an abrasive, arrogant tosser when you reply?

 

Try to answer that question only.

 

you mean that I'm right and you can't see it or bring yourself to admit it ?

 

I think those who can't see the blatantly obvious, and ignore factual information that doesn't suit their "opinion", are tossers.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the club hasn't embarrassed you in the last 2 weeks ?

 

It's embarrassed me, more than for many years. I wouldn't really be arsed, but the sad thing is, the only way they are going on the field is headlong into a relegation fight that may be lost unless the soopa new owner abandons his so called "plan" or buggers off and sells to someone who knows something about football. And that DOES bother me.

 

 

 

 

No, I mean that you come across as an over excited, abrasive, arrogant, tosspot when you've replied to the posts on this thread.  After reading it, you have pissed me off far more with your attitude than your actual viewpoint.

 

you're new to here, or appear to be.

 

These sort of "debates" with macbeth are old hat, they've been done before. I'm not interested. He refused to answer a point blank question when asked would he prefer a good balance sheet to being relegated. This is going back to when we bought Micheal Owen, because we were going into the season with only an ex world class striker and a Spanish player nobody knew anything about.

 

Pity Ashley didn't speculate too in the window just ended, we may well pay the price. You can't deny that supporters are unhappy ? What does that do for the balance sheets ? What will happen if we are relegated ?

 

I'm asking you. I'm not arsed with macbeth or one or two others, because we have been there before. I find it amazing that after the events of the last few weeks, and losing the manager pretty much all of us wanted to keep and have lost for all of the reasons I'm stating ie lack of support and backing, that you can defend Ashleys actions or those who appear to still think he was doing it right.

 

 

[macbeth]

if you remove player trading and amortisation, ie look at the sheer numbers going in and out to run a club, it was basically breaking even. even the money we owe on past transfers is a short-term expense that will all but vanish soon. with the £6m or so saved on loan repayments and the increase in tv money of £18m we're in decent financial health. also as shepherd says, the majority of the paid off debt was held against the consecutive stadium improvements of the shepherd-hall era, plus land owned in and around SJP. this land has since remained undeveloped (leazes carpark, old barrack road shop site, gallowgate carpark) but shepherd had a plan to develop it which wouldve given us a further cash injection and maybe even contributed towards further stadium expansion.

 

im not sure whether ashley was caught unawares about the debt needing to be repaid in a certain time, even i knew about that.

 

the one thing id criticse shepherd for was receiving sponsorship money in a lump sum rather than as staggered payments. not so much because it reduces the cash flow later on (in some ways it is better to get it in one go in order to invest it into the club) but because, with increased tv coverage, sponsorship values have subsequently risen as the rock deal isn't really great for us. look at spurs deal with mansion, their previous deal was a fraction of ours yet now theirs is far, far more lucrative.

 

Excellent someone is joining while using facts rather than just "nah nah nah"

 

The problem with removing amortisation and player trading is that the club need to invets in players, and that cost will never go away. The club need to have players, and will need to buy some of them to actually allow their business to run.

 

It would be like XL pointing to how well their business is run while asking us to ignore the cost of planes. Their fuel bill being the equivalent of NUFC's wage bill.

 

For the last three years the net amount the club paid on players was between £10 and £11m. That was the figure that Shepherd felt the business could, or had, to run at. At the same time  the amortisation was running at roughly £16m per year. This was higher players are sodl before the end of their contracts to try and rescue some cash before they are sold off.

 

The stadium debt which hit Ashley by surprise came to £45m, which had been costing the club £6.2m per year under the Hall ownership. That he didn't know was very poor.

The other loans taken out by Shepherd, not as part of the stadium expansion were

£13.1m borrowed form Northern Rock at 8.55%, to be completely paid off by July 2010 (this was the sponsorship money), paid off by Ashley

£4.5m loan taken out in 2002 guaranteed against the training ground. This was at 2.25% over the base rate, and had £1.8m left to be paid off when Ashley took over.

£8m loan taken out in August 2007, under Ashley , this one is interesting for anyone who can be bothered. It was used to take the Sky money early, rather than having to wait until they gave at the season end. The interest on this loan was at 11.7% !!

£4m loan taken out in 2007 at 8.8% interest, paid off by Ashley

£2.4m worth of loans taken out to buy "assets", to be paid off by August 2009.

£1.5m interest free loan, linked to a "commercial agreement". There is no explanation of who or what thsi was about, but a similar deal was in place in the 1990s when S&N lent the club money at no interest whiel they had the pouring rights at teh ground.

 

The land owed around the ground is included in the assets of the club. It isn't clear how much for exactly. The land IS an asset if you plan to do something with it, otherwise it is just land. Overall the club has liabilities of £16m rather than assets, as it actually owes more than the value of the ground and all the players put together. So the spare land is actually helping to make the figures look good at £16m !!

The other issue aroudn the land is that to build on it would require to borrow money first. The size of the debt meant there was nothing left to borrow against. The ground, the training ground, the pouring rights, the future Sky money had already been used as back up. By the end the interest rates being charged were nearly 12%, even the banks knew how risky a lend it was and charged more.

 

I wasn't sure getting the sponsorship money up front was a bad thing. The club was in such a desperate position they had to spend to avoid going down. What I hadn't realised until the last set of accounts form Shepherd was that the money was borrowed from Northern Rock. So on the surface it seemed we were getting money every yera from NR, and really we had got £13.1m loan and were paying them £2.5m a year

 

I have a record of all the club accounts, if you want a copy then let me know. All I want is the information to be out there, so that some of us can ask questions

 

 

 

 

[NE5]

 

Quality, in an entertaining way

 

It is and he'll not be able to see it.

 

So you're happy you got your wish then 

[macbeth]

 

errm, club accounts or Companies House records doesn't constitute factual information?

 

 

If they are not factual then Shepherd has been lying to everyone, which I cannot believe for one second.

 

If they are not factual then he has opened himslef up to prosecution. The Financial Services would have him for fraud.

 

The other reason to not doubt them is that they are appalling results. If he had been making them up they would look okay

 

 

[Thomson Mouse]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

 

wish I'd put a bet on that you'd say that  mackems.gif

 

You now have a club without a fat b****** in charge that doesn't embarrass you.

 

A few mediocre teams might embarrass you instead though. Just like your good old days. 

 

 

As much as I disagree with you on this point, why do you have to come across as such an abrasive, arrogant tosser when you reply?

 

Try to answer that question only.

 

you mean that I'm right and you can't see it or bring yourself to admit it ?

 

I think those who can't see the blatantly obvious, and ignore factual information that doesn't suit their "opinion", are tossers.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the club hasn't embarrassed you in the last 2 weeks ?

 

It's embarrassed me, more than for many years. I wouldn't really be arsed, but the sad thing is, the only way they are going on the field is headlong into a relegation fight that may be lost unless the soopa new owner abandons his so called "plan" or buggers off and sells to someone who knows something about football. And that DOES bother me.

 

 

 

 

No, I mean that you come across as an over excited, abrasive, arrogant, tosspot when you've replied to the posts on this thread.  After reading it, you have pissed me off far more with your attitude than your actual viewpoint.

 

you're new to here, or appear to be.

 

These sort of "debates" with macbeth are old hat, they've been done before. I'm not interested. He refused to answer a point blank question when asked would he prefer a good balance sheet to being relegated. This is going back to when we bought Micheal Owen, because we were going into the season with only an ex world class striker and a Spanish player nobody knew anything about.

 

Pity Ashley didn't speculate too in the window just ended, we may well pay the price. You can't deny that supporters are unhappy ? What does that do for the balance sheets ? What will happen if we are relegated ?

 

I'm asking you. I'm not arsed with macbeth or one or two others, because we have been there before. I find it amazing that after the events of the last few weeks, and losing the manager pretty much all of us wanted to keep and have lost for all of the reasons I'm stating ie lack of support and backing, that you can defend Ashleys actions or those who appear to still think he was doing it right.

 

 

 

 

Well, I still have a new sheen, but a few scuff marks are starting to appear.

 

You don't have to go into history, I've read them all before.

 

From what I've seen he's not the only one that does that.

[Guest elbee909]

 

you've re-appeared too

 

Happy you have what you wished for ?

 

 

 

What did I wish for?

 

wish I'd put a bet on that you'd say that  mackems.gif

 

You now have a club without a fat b****** in charge that doesn't embarrass you.

 

A few mediocre teams might embarrass you instead though. Just like your good old days. 

 

 

As much as I disagree with you on this point, why do you have to come across as such an abrasive, arrogant tosser when you reply?

 

Try to answer that question only.

 

you mean that I'm right and you can't see it or bring yourself to admit it ?

 

I think those who can't see the blatantly obvious, and ignore factual information that doesn't suit their "opinion", are tossers.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the club hasn't embarrassed you in the last 2 weeks ?

 

It's embarrassed me, more than for many years. I wouldn't really be arsed, but the sad thing is, the only way they are going on the field is headlong into a relegation fight that may be lost unless the soopa new owner abandons his so called "plan" or buggers off and sells to someone who knows something about football. And that DOES bother me.

 

 

 

 

No, I mean that you come across as an over excited, abrasive, arrogant, tosspot when you've replied to the posts on this thread.  After reading it, you have pissed me off far more with your attitude than your actual viewpoint.

 

Every now and then, someone new comes along and makes this discovery. It's a shame, really.

[NE5]

 

errm, club accounts or Companies House records doesn't constitute factual information?

 

 

If they are not factual then Shepherd has been lying to everyone, which I cannot believe for one second.

 

If they are not factual then he has opened himslef up to prosecution. The Financial Services would have him for fraud.

 

The other reason to not doubt them is that they are appalling results. If he had been making them up they would look okay

 

 

 

I hope Mike Ashley's lack of investment and support to his manager which has resulted in a threadbare squad very short of quality players doesn't lead to relegation in return for your obsessive infatuation with balance sheets. No doubt you would be happy with this.

 

Have you paid a 3 year season ticket, or are you not planning on being part of the 52,000 watching possible championship football

in your dreamworld.

 

Maybe you will come back on here next May if by some miracle the result of having a squad of unhappy players that have lost heart in the management of the club, somehow manages to stay up and say that you were right ?