Would you take 17th place right now ?

[Mowen]

 

I thought Mort was only ever a short term appointment to sort us out? I was sure I'd heard something along those lines when he came in.

 

He was here on a 12 month contract but it could have been extended if both sides wanted it to happen.

 

Just on a vague memory here, but I always assumed it was just going to be the year all along, didn't he have a family in London and was commuting up?

[Guest Howaythetoon]

So, if he put his principles first, why did he walk out on the club hours after the transfer window closed and not as soon as he realised he was been undermined in the market?

 

 

 

I don't think it is as clear as that, like he was suddenly undermined or undermined from the off. I think a few things lead to one another, culminating in the sale of Milner behind his back and the purchase of players behind his back also. The final straw if you like, the point of no going back.

 

I'm mainly guessing here but I'll put this scenario to you.

 

 

We just don't know what went on behind the scenes which makes it impossible to try to analyse what happened this summer. I'm still a bit stunned by the whole business and there have been so many theories that I've tied myself in knots trying to make sense of it all.

 

All I know is that Keegan walked out on us at the absolute worst possible time. If him being undermined in the market was the main issue, why walk as soon as it no longer became an issue? It wouldn't have resurfaced until December as we approached Jan 1st. And if it was the main issue, why not walk as son as he had an inkling he wasn't in total charge of transfer policy?

 

Those are my main problems with how it's panned out. I'm sure there's a perfectly good answer, and I'm probably missing it, but it doesn't add up. 

 

I reckon he was told or assured that the likes of Taylor, Milner and Owen would be tied up to new deals and KK reassured these players and indeed others too and kept them up to date with developments, promising to bring in quality and to strengthen the squad which the likes of Shay were banging on about publicly even before KK was here and when Milner was sold, no new deal for Owen arrived and the promises he made to the squad based on assurances made to him, didn't materialise, he weighed all that up and thought "I can't go back". Trust is an important thing and so is authority. If players sensed or knew KK had no real authority, things can unravel very quickly. Players are very selfish, that's why it takes special managers to knit them together and create a winning team. Look what happened with Sir Bobby when he began to be undermined, he started to lose the dressing room. Players also watch TV and when they see KK saying Milner is staying and that's the end of it only for him to leave and KK saying it was his decision when they would have all know that wasn't true, what should they think?

 

You're a teacher Midds, if you promised your class a trip to Disneyland at the end of term and it never materialised, you'd lose their trust and while they may still do their homework because they have to, i.e. the players will still play and put a smile on, will they go that extra step for you? Will they do their best as you've inspired them to do so?

 

It's not a reason of course but I bet it played on his mind. He's a players man more than anything and we all know how sensitive he is, he probably thought about all that.

 

And then the fans. The KK we love and know fights our corner, is one of us. As much stick has he's had for walking out from a minority, he'd get stick from fans for paying lip service to a corrupt regieme, not instantly of course, but when the truth came out which it would surely do as the Jan window wouldn't have been any different.

 

Lets be honest, when you're being screwed about, timing goes out the window, sometimes you just have to get the fuck out of there.

[Robster]

You know I think we could actually discuss the various theories on this forum until the end of days.

 

 

[madras]

or maybe he wasn't very good at handling the press. ie couldn't spin and con like a pro.

 

Maybe (that word again ) Mort didn't want to spin and con, I can't think of anything which he said or did that might suggest that he wasn't anything other than honest.  He wasn't here long but he's made some changes for the better, at least it appeared that way at the time, I'd have him back without thinking and I doubt we'd be in this s*** if he'd stayed.

i think we would have. he only carried his masters bidding.

[Mowen]

You're a teacher Midds, if you promised your class a trip to Disneyland at the end of term and it never materialised, you'd lose their trust and while they may still do their homework because they have to, i.e. the players will still play and put a smile on, will they go that extra step for you? Will they do their best as you've inspired them to do so?

 

mackems.gif

[Mick]

 

Just on a vague memory here, but I always assumed it was just going to be the year all along, didn't he have a family in London and was commuting up?

 

His family were in London and he was here for all of the games and most of the working week.  Quite a few people work like that though, I've done the same thing in the past, it's shit but becomes second nature.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Call me crazy but the more I look at it the more I think Ashley brought KK in to keep the fans happy when it would become abundantly obvious that there wasn't going to be any transfer budget of any note as the process of recouping money began, only he didn't bargain for what KK meant to us all nor just how principled a man KK was. Why I think this was a very calculated move is the small issue of the resignation clause in KK's contract. Why would he put that in? Perhaps he considered KK may threaten to walk when he realised what was going on, so put it in to almost not blackmail him but to make it impossible for him to resign. If KK agreed to that which he did, he must have really believed what was being sold to him, because he's a clever man too and calculating as well. This is maybe why Ashley didn't fly back "KK will never resign and we'll never sack him as we'll have to pay him up".

 

OMG he did resign.

 

Cue mass panic by Ashley and the board.

 

 

 

Nobody was asking for Keegan to be brought back, Ashley wasn't under any pressure to go out and get him.

 

Aye, but he did see what fans thought of Big Sam. If he was to begin a programme of recouping money he'd have to have someone in there that would keep fans happy. The fact no-one was shouting for KK, wanted him or even considered KK also adds to the intrigue.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

You're a teacher Midds, if you promised your class a trip to Disneyland at the end of term and it never materialised, you'd lose their trust and while they may still do their homework because they have to, i.e. the players will still play and put a smile on, will they go that extra step for you? Will they do their best as you've inspired them to do so?

 

mackems.gif

 

 

One of my best analogies man.

[madras]

You're a teacher Midds, if you promised your class a trip to Disneyland at the end of term and it never materialised, you'd lose their trust and while they may still do their homework because they have to, i.e. the players will still play and put a smile on, will they go that extra step for you? Will they do their best as you've inspired them to do so?

 

mackems.gif

 

 

One of my best analogies man.

then again we are talking about adults who hopefully have a sense of professional pride and kinship to their fellow players. i'd like to think tomorrow that hughton will be locked out the dressing room after announcing the team. given,butt and taylor should speak about pride and fellowship as the senior players. "sod the press,the fans,the shirt.....this is about us"

[Mick]

 

Aye, but he did see what fans thought of Big Sam. If he was to begin a programme of recouping money he'd have to have someone in there that would keep fans happy. The fact no-one was shouting for KK, wanted him or even considered KK also adds to the intrigue.

 

I'm baffled at the appointment and it doesn't become any clearer when trying to work it out.  By that I mean the decision process and who actually decided to go for him and why.

[midds]

So, if he put his principles first, why did he walk out on the club hours after the transfer window closed and not as soon as he realised he was been undermined in the market?

 

 

 

I don't think it is as clear as that, like he was suddenly undermined or undermined from the off. I think a few things lead to one another, culminating in the sale of Milner behind his back and the purchase of players behind his back also. The final straw if you like, the point of no going back.

 

I'm mainly guessing here but I'll put this scenario to you.

 

 

We just don't know what went on behind the scenes which makes it impossible to try to analyse what happened this summer. I'm still a bit stunned by the whole business and there have been so many theories that I've tied myself in knots trying to make sense of it all.

 

All I know is that Keegan walked out on us at the absolute worst possible time. If him being undermined in the market was the main issue, why walk as soon as it no longer became an issue? It wouldn't have resurfaced until December as we approached Jan 1st. And if it was the main issue, why not walk as son as he had an inkling he wasn't in total charge of transfer policy?

 

Those are my main problems with how it's panned out. I'm sure there's a perfectly good answer, and I'm probably missing it, but it doesn't add up. 

 

I reckon he was told or assured that the likes of Taylor, Milner and Owen would be tied up to new deals and KK reassured these players and indeed others too and kept them up to date with developments, promising to bring in quality and to strengthen the squad which the likes of Shay were banging on about publicly even before KK was here and when Milner was sold, no new deal for Owen arrived and the promises he made to the squad based on assurances made to him, didn't materialise, he weighed all that up and thought "I can't go back". Trust is an important thing and so is authority. If players sensed or knew KK had no real authority, things can unravel very quickly. Players are very selfish, that's why it takes special managers to knit them together and create a winning team. Look what happened with Sir Bobby when he began to be undermined, he started to lose the dressing room. Players also watch TV and when they see KK saying Milner is staying and that's the end of it only for him to leave and KK saying it was his decision when they would have all know that wasn't true, what should they think?

 

You're a teacher Midds, if you promised your class a trip to Disneyland at the end of term and it never materialised, you'd lose their trust and while they may still do their homework because they have to, i.e. the players will still play and put a smile on, will they go that extra step for you? Will they do their best as you've inspired them to do so?

 

It's not a reason of course but I bet it played on his mind. He's a players man more than anything and we all know how sensitive he is, he probably thought about all that.

 

And then the fans. The KK we love and know fights our corner, is one of us. As much stick has he's had for walking out from a minority, he'd get stick from fans for paying lip service to a corrupt regieme, not instantly of course, but when the truth came out which it would surely do as the Jan window wouldn't have been any different.

 

Lets be honest, when you're being screwed about, timing goes out the window, sometimes you just have to get the fuck out of there.

 

That's all entirely possible. That's the thing, everyone's got a theory and has been reading between the lines all summer. Now it's exploded we're putting 2 and 2 together and I'm sure between us we've just about covered all eventualities.

 

I'd like to think Keegan put the club first and was professional throughout the summer but I've got my doubts. His comments after Chelsea scared the life out of me if I'm honest and set the alarm bells ringing loud and clear. Managers who are happy with things don't come out with what he did that day. This supposed undermining of him started a long time ago in my opinion.

 

Ah, fuck it! It's history now and I just want us to pick a few points up, starting tomorrow. The club comes first and always will.  

[madras]

 

Aye, but he did see what fans thought of Big Sam. If he was to begin a programme of recouping money he'd have to have someone in there that would keep fans happy. The fact no-one was shouting for KK, wanted him or even considered KK also adds to the intrigue.

 

I'm baffled at the appointment and it doesn't become any clearer when trying to work it out.  By that I mean the decision process and who actually decided to go for him and why.

maybe (i should consider changing my name to "maybe")someone saw that keegan was actually a much better coach and tactician than he was given credit for. if only they could get him to agree to this new fangled structure they have in mind ?

[Guest Howaythetoon]

 

Ah, f*** it! It's history now and I just want us to pick a few points up, starting tomorrow. The club comes first and always will.  

 

Fully agreed.

 

The Chelsea comments caused me alarm as well.

 

We'll never know what happened exactly and to be honest I don't think I want to know now.

[Mowen]

You're a teacher Midds, if you promised your class a trip to Disneyland at the end of term and it never materialised, you'd lose their trust and while they may still do their homework because they have to, i.e. the players will still play and put a smile on, will they go that extra step for you? Will they do their best as you've inspired them to do so?

 

mackems.gif

 

 

One of my best analogies man.

 

 

I've disagreed with you in the past few days, but I know what I like, and that is it. Well played.

[madras]

 

Ah, f*** it! It's history now and I just want us to pick a few points up, starting tomorrow. The club comes first and always will.  

 

Fully agreed.

 

The Chelsea comments caused me alarm as well.

 

We'll never know what happened exactly and to be honest I don't think I want to know now.

i need closure

[ElDiablo]

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3404/catthreadzk3.jpg

[Mick]

maybe (i should consider changing my name to "maybe")someone saw that keegan was actually a much better coach and tactician than he was given credit for. if only they could get him to agree to this new fangled structure they have in mind ?

 

That's possible, we may never know.

[Mick]

 

Fully agreed.

 

The Chelsea comments caused me alarm as well.

 

We'll never know what happened exactly and to be honest I don't think I want to know now.

 

I'd like to know as I would then owe one of them an apology as I've blamed then both at times, the best result for me would be for me to be able to blame both.

[midds]

 

Fully agreed.

 

The Chelsea comments caused me alarm as well.

 

We'll never know what happened exactly and to be honest I don't think I want to know now.

 

I'd like to know as I would then owe one of them an apology as I've blamed then both at times, the best result for me would be for me to be able to blame both.

 

Amen.

[NE5]

 

Aye, but he did see what fans thought of Big Sam. If he was to begin a programme of recouping money he'd have to have someone in there that would keep fans happy. The fact no-one was shouting for KK, wanted him or even considered KK also adds to the intrigue.

 

I'm baffled at the appointment and it doesn't become any clearer when trying to work it out.  By that I mean the decision process and who actually decided to go for him and why.

 

according to you, anyone but Fred would make good appointments, and would be better at running the club.

 

When exactly do you think we will have directors that will run the club and match the Halls and Shepherd ie those owners that you loath so much ?

 

I don't expect to get a reply as usual

 

 

[NE5]

So, if he put his principles first, why did he walk out on the club hours after the transfer window closed and not as soon as he realised he was been undermined in the market?

 

 

 

Because then the club could have easily contradicted him by saying "but we were going to give Kevin all the funds he needed". Once the window closed, surely that was the point when he realised that he could do no more.

 

Perhaps.

 

If he was as highly-pincipled as HTT is making out I'd have thought he'd have been off like a shot regardless. As soon as Wise tells him the club are signing Gutierrez and telling him to find him on youtube should have been the trigger.

 

This is just my opinion - but I think Keegan chose the exact time which would cause maximum hassle for Ashley, Wise et al. Unfortunately, in doing this he also drops the club in the shite too.

 

I realise that might not please everyone but it's just what I think and we may never know exactly what went on to force him to walk. Who knows?

 

I'm not so sure. He maybe stuck with it for as long as he could, not wanting to walk out, but in the end conceded to himself that it was hopeless carrying on.

 

I would say that selling Milner and finding that even the "sell to buy" policy inposed on him wasn't being worked as to allow him to buy the player(s) he wanted with the money was the final straw.

 

 

[Mick]

 

according to you, anyone but Fred would make good appointments, and would be better at running the club.

 

When exactly do you think we will have directors that will run the club and match the Halls and Shepherd ie those owners that you loath so much ?

 

I don't expect to get a reply as usual

 

 

 

I'll answer your question when you can show where I've said anybody but Shepherd would make good appointments, I'll not be holding my breath.

[NE5]

 

Ah, f*** it! It's history now and I just want us to pick a few points up, starting tomorrow. The club comes first and always will.  

 

Fully agreed.

 

The Chelsea comments caused me alarm as well.

 

We'll never know what happened exactly and to be honest I don't think I want to know now.

 

it was at least the 3rd alarm for me. 2 previous that spring to mind was Allardyce complaining about lack of day to day support at the club, which was roundly condemned by a lot of people as irrelevant [word to that effect] and Morts comments around November where he said that we would not buy anybody in January for the first team.

 

I would say that by this time [Keegans comments in May] it was dawning on him that all was not what he had been led to believe. He tried to take it on in the press [knowing he had the supporters behind him] as he had done the first time round, and won. But was basically gagged and told to shut it when they had the meeting.

 

There is faults on both sides here. Ashley was justified in telling him to shut up and Keegan was wrong to say what he did from the point of view of the club, but right in our eyes because he was telling us what was going on.

 

 

[NE5]

 

according to you, anyone but Fred would make good appointments, and would be better at running the club.

 

When exactly do you think we will have directors that will run the club and match the Halls and Shepherd ie those owners that you loath so much ?

 

I don't expect to get a reply as usual

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll answer your question when you can show where I've said anybody but Shepherd would make good appointments, I'll not be holding my breath.

 

So, are you going to admit that you are happy the fat bastard has gone and you now have what you wished for. On literally hundreds of occasions ?

 

I know you haven't got the balls to do it.

 

"He wants what we want and goes to the games for the same reason as we do, he wants us to win for the pleasure that brings.  He wants to build the club up and put everything in place to make sure we can maintain a high position once we reach it." - mick in a moment of inspirational cringeworthiness, august 10th 2008

 

Cringeworthy stuff. He took you in completely, what a sucker.

 

 

[Mick]

 

So, are you going to admit that you are happy the fat b****** has gone and you now have what you wished for. On literally hundreds of occasions ?

 

I know you haven't got the balls to do it.

 

"He wants what we want and goes to the games for the same reason as we do, he wants us to win for the pleasure that brings.  He wants to build the club up and put everything in place to make sure we can maintain a high position once we reach it." - mick in a moment of inspirational cringeworthiness, august 10th 2008

 

Cringeworthy stuff. He took you in completely, what a sucker.

 

 

 

I've got no problem admitting that I'm glad that Shepherd has gone, why wouldn't I?  I'll also stand by what you've quoted, I've got no problem with that either.

 

Keegan going doesn't change that in the slightest.