Is subbing Martins causing these late reversals?

[Parky]

While he's on he tends to keep the game stretched and 2/3 of theirs nervous as to his pace. I always start getting nervous when he comes off and the static Viduka comes on.

 

We have to stop taking Martins off. 

[ChezGiven]

Isnt it subbing Martins that is costing us...?

 

Or

 

Is it subbing Martins that is costing us...?

 

[/dave]

[johnnypd]

agreed. but it is more than that, taking him off is but a symptom of a greater problem - fear football, always playing it safe, trying to shut up shop ridiculously early on. i can understand why Kinnear would want to play this way in his first couple of matches in order to make us hard to beat, and he has done that to an extent, or in a game away to chelsea when we're expected to lose. but in other games he's as bad as Allardyce, only with more baffling substituions.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Yes.

 

That was easy.

[TRon]

Martins has the threat of breaking at pace which always keeps teams on their toes. I've never seen it used more effectively at Newcastle than when Bobby Robson put that side together with Bellamy, Robert and Dyer. With Solano picking the ball up from defence and picking one of them out, we could be down the other end of the pitch with the ball in the back of the net before the opposition had turned round to run in the other direction.

[Yorkie]

When he's on the pitch we have a better chance of winning the game. I'm only repeating people here - it's obvious what he brings to the team. Not only goals, but he pushes opposing defenses back and gives them something to be frightened of. I only watched Football First and confess to only half-arsedly watching the second half of it, but i bet their defense pushed up a good couple of yards after Oba went off. It's not a coincidence that their quickest defender won the game for em.

 

I simply cannot understand the logic in taking Martins off. I've rarely been so irate watching a press conference of one of our bosses, when i watched the pre-Stoke one the other day. His reasoning for taking Martins off... Christ. I daren't repeat it again, it's literally a crime to footballing logic.

 

I would honestly rather see Ben Lankybellwipe managing the team than this utter fucking mug.

[Pilko]

I think it's a large part of the problem.

 

However, didn't Keegan take off Martins when we were drawing with Birmingham, beating Fulham, beating Reading and beating Sunderland? All four of those are against similarly shit opposition and barring the different CB pairing and a few other different players, they were similar situations. Us crusing against sub-standard opposition. So Martins leaving the field simply cannot be the whole reason for us imploding. I'd say it's about 65% resposible though.

[thenige]

Didn't make any difference against Stoke, the shocking tactical decisions were made at half time when he moved three players out of position to replace one.

 

We were a shambles from 45:01 onwards, Martins made no difference whatsoever second half.

[Guest SB]

Yes. and JFK's cluelessness in general

[cp40]

its a strange co-incidence or its true.

[johnnypd]

Didn't make any difference against Stoke, the shocking tactical decisions were made at half time when he moved three players out of position to replace one.

 

We were a shambles from 45:01 onwards, Martins made no difference whatsoever second half.

 

he was our best player in the 2nd half and looking like our only outlet, mad to bring him off. however the malaise set in earlier than that due to some other decisions kinnear made.

[Yorkie]

I think it's a large part of the problem.

 

However, didn't Keegan take off Martins when we were drawing with Birmingham, beating Fulham, beating Reading and beating Sunderland? All four of those are against similarly shit opposition and barring the different CB pairing and a few other different players, they were similar situations. Us crusing against sub-standard opposition. So Martins leaving the field simply cannot be the whole reason for us imploding. I'd say it's about 65% resposible though.

 

The difference with those games was that Martins wasn't the only attacking outlet in the system that KK enforced.

 

Not forgetting he'd often bring N'Zogbia on or even, heaven forbid, Duff - who can atleast run at a defense and push em back atleast a little bit (with varying degrees of effectiveness, granted). Kinnear brings on Viduka, who has literally no pace whatsoever. He's excellent at keeping the ball but it leaves no runner, especially when you've got cloggers like Butt and Geremi representing your centre-midfield. The defense can happily push up.

 

Martins brings us pace and yes, Keegan took him off too. But KK was able to compensate for his loss and 'go defensive' with a system that didn't mean "throw as many CBs on as possible". We won them games, remember.

 

EDIT: My opinion on it is, for the record , withdrawing Martins isn't the sole reason for dropping points, a la Stoke. But if the game is tied, it extinguishes any possibility of a win - a la Boro.

[cp40]

I think it's a large part of the problem.

 

However, didn't Keegan take off Martins when we were drawing with Birmingham, beating Fulham, beating Reading and beating Sunderland? All four of those are against similarly shit opposition and barring the different CB pairing and a few other different players, they were similar situations. Us crusing against sub-standard opposition. So Martins leaving the field simply cannot be the whole reason for us imploding. I'd say it's about 65% resposible though.

 

The difference with those games was that Martins wasn't the only attacking outlet in the system that KK enforced.

 

Not forgetting he'd often bring N'Zogbia on or even, heaven forbid, Duff - who can atleast run at a defense and push em back atleast a little bit (with varying degrees of effectiveness, granted). Kinnear brings on Viduka, who has literally no pace whatsoever. He's excellent at keeping the ball but it leaves no runner, especially when you've got cloggers like Butt and Geremi representing your centre-midfield. The defense can happily push up.

 

Martins brings us pace and yes, Keegan took him off too. But KK was able to compensate for his loss and 'go defensive' with a system that didn't mean "throw as many CBs on as possible". We won them games, remember.

 

EDIT: My opinion on it is, for the record , withdrawing Martins isn't the sole reason for dropping points, a la Stoke. But if the game is tied, it extinguishes any possibility of a win - a la Boro.

 

 

i agree, i think ashley making a shambles of the managment set up, may also have something to do with it.

[Yorkie]

I think it's a large part of the problem.

 

However, didn't Keegan take off Martins when we were drawing with Birmingham, beating Fulham, beating Reading and beating Sunderland? All four of those are against similarly shit opposition and barring the different CB pairing and a few other different players, they were similar situations. Us crusing against sub-standard opposition. So Martins leaving the field simply cannot be the whole reason for us imploding. I'd say it's about 65% resposible though.

 

The difference with those games was that Martins wasn't the only attacking outlet in the system that KK enforced.

 

Not forgetting he'd often bring N'Zogbia on or even, heaven forbid, Duff - who can atleast run at a defense and push em back atleast a little bit (with varying degrees of effectiveness, granted). Kinnear brings on Viduka, who has literally no pace whatsoever. He's excellent at keeping the ball but it leaves no runner, especially when you've got cloggers like Butt and Geremi representing your centre-midfield. The defense can happily push up.

 

Martins brings us pace and yes, Keegan took him off too. But KK was able to compensate for his loss and 'go defensive' with a system that didn't mean "throw as many CBs on as possible". We won them games, remember.

 

EDIT: My opinion on it is, for the record , withdrawing Martins isn't the sole reason for dropping points, a la Stoke. But if the game is tied, it extinguishes any possibility of a win - a la Boro.

 

 

i agree, i think ashley making a shambles of the managment set up, may also have something to do with it.

 

I personally think Keegan is the root of the blame. Crikey, how about that for a discussion! Anyone?

 

[Pilko]

Someone needs to buy Kinnear a copy of FM09 and tell him to sit the fuck down and learn some bastard tactics.

[MW]

Spoke to him in a restaurant on saturday night n he didn't sound too happy about it. Said that he felt he wasn't needed.

[Scoreboard82]

Spoke to him in a restaurant on saturday night n he didn't sound too happy about it. Said that he felt he wasn't needed.

Would be a tragic waste of a good striker if he got so sick of being subbed that he wanted to be away.

[Parky]

Martins has the threat of breaking at pace which always keeps teams on their toes. I've never seen it used more effectively at Newcastle than when Bobby Robson put that side together with Bellamy, Robert and Dyer. With Solano picking the ball up from defence and picking one of them out, we could be down the other end of the pitch with the ball in the back of the net before the opposition had turned round to run in the other direction.

 

It can be a very simple game. Good comparison there BT.

 

I think if you have pace you leave it on the park as it keeps them guessing and also they don't push up as a side. For me also I think Jonas runs back too much.

[Willow]

Yes. and JFK's cluelessness in general

[cp40]

I think it's a large part of the problem.

 

However, didn't Keegan take off Martins when we were drawing with Birmingham, beating Fulham, beating Reading and beating Sunderland? All four of those are against similarly shit opposition and barring the different CB pairing and a few other different players, they were similar situations. Us crusing against sub-standard opposition. So Martins leaving the field simply cannot be the whole reason for us imploding. I'd say it's about 65% resposible though.

 

The difference with those games was that Martins wasn't the only attacking outlet in the system that KK enforced.

 

Not forgetting he'd often bring N'Zogbia on or even, heaven forbid, Duff - who can atleast run at a defense and push em back atleast a little bit (with varying degrees of effectiveness, granted). Kinnear brings on Viduka, who has literally no pace whatsoever. He's excellent at keeping the ball but it leaves no runner, especially when you've got cloggers like Butt and Geremi representing your centre-midfield. The defense can happily push up.

 

Martins brings us pace and yes, Keegan took him off too. But KK was able to compensate for his loss and 'go defensive' with a system that didn't mean "throw as many CBs on as possible". We won them games, remember.

 

EDIT: My opinion on it is, for the record , withdrawing Martins isn't the sole reason for dropping points, a la Stoke. But if the game is tied, it extinguishes any possibility of a win - a la Boro.

 

 

i agree, i think ashley making a shambles of the managment set up, may also have something to do with it.

 

I personally think Keegan is the root of the blame. Crikey, how about that for a discussion! Anyone?

 

 

 

i am a hungry fish, and i see that juicy worm on your hook, but I'm not gonna be reeled in.....

[Yorkie]

Martins has the threat of breaking at pace which always keeps teams on their toes. I've never seen it used more effectively at Newcastle than when Bobby Robson put that side together with Bellamy, Robert and Dyer. With Solano picking the ball up from defence and picking one of them out, we could be down the other end of the pitch with the ball in the back of the net before the opposition had turned round to run in the other direction.

 

It can be a very simple game. Good comparison there BT.

 

I think if you have pace you leave it on the park as it keeps them guessing and also they don't push up as a side. For me also I think Jonas runs back too much.

 

Bobby was the master of counter-attack like. That Everton 6-2 game, man. Dyer - JJ - Bernard - Lua Lua - Bellamy - even Cort i think was playing that game. Fucking lightning.

 

Bobby would be able to conjure a quality counter-attacking outfit with the likes of Enrique, Zog, Barton, Jonas, Martins, Owen.

[relámpago blanco]

Martins has the threat of breaking at pace which always keeps teams on their toes. I've never seen it used more effectively at Newcastle than when Bobby Robson put that side together with Bellamy, Robert and Dyer. With Solano picking the ball up from defence and picking one of them out, we could be down the other end of the pitch with the ball in the back of the net before the opposition had turned round to run in the other direction.

 

It can be a very simple game. Good comparison there BT.

 

I think if you have pace you leave it on the park as it keeps them guessing and also they don't push up as a side. For me also I think Jonas runs back too much.

 

Bobby was the master of counter-attack like. That Everton 6-2 game, man. Dyer - JJ - Bernard - Lua Lua - Bellamy - even Cort i think was playing that game. f***ing lightning.

 

Bobby would be able to conjure a quality counter-attacking outfit with the likes of Enrique, Zog, Barton, Jonas, Martins, Owen.

To be honest creating a good counter attcking unit isn't that difficult if you have the players its basically;

 

Defend

Win Ball

Give it to fast player

Anyone with pace run like fuck towards their goal

Pass forwards

Shoot

 

JK doesn't seem to grasp that though its more like;

 

Defend

Win Ball

Hoof ball at short bloke

Defend

Win ball

Hoof ball at short bloke

 

[M4]

We need Owen out there because he's going to get goals. Once we're well in the lead and still comfortable (like last weekend) Martins has to stay on, otherwise it immediately negates the team's ability to threaten. Ugh, such terrible decision making from JK on Saturday, sickening.

[Guest]

We need Owen out there because he's going to get goals. Once we're well in the lead and still comfortable (like last weekend) Martins has to stay on, otherwise it immediately negates the team's ability to threaten. Ugh, such terrible decision making from JK on Saturday, sickening.

 

Which makes the whole Keegan thing all the more sickening in my eyes. We'd be at least 7th now with that very same squad had he stayed.

[Wullie]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.